How many fighters does Victarion have?

[Nyrhex]

3. The average Westerosi galley likely dips 100 oars. We are able to reach this conclusion because of the composition of Stannis' Fleet in ACOK. The battle formation created by Ser Imry Florent was made up of 200 ships and organized into 10 battle lines of twenty ships. The first three lines were made up of Westerosi war galleys. Of these ships, 56 dipped 100 oars. The other 4 dipped 200+. From this it can be said that the ships of the Iron Fleet dip 100 oars give or take. This will make the ships of the Iron Fleet larger than the two largest viking longships on record. False. We know that they match in speed. That does not mean the same number of oars.

4. There seems to be dispute over the language used in the books. The Byzantine Dromon is different from the Dromonds used in the Middle-Ages. The Byzantine ship was used from the 5th to 12th centuries AD. The dromonds of the Middle-Ages were used from the 12th to 15th centuries AD. The dromond is derived from and based of the dromon. The terms galley and dromond are almost synonymous and can be used pretty interchangeably. A dromond is simply a larger class of galley. The terms warship and longship are also used. These simply speak to the ship purpose and design. And the use of ram means that it is a Dromon of the earlier classes, closer to the 6th century, rather then the 16th.

Byzantine dromons basically came in three types. The Ousiakon, which was crewed by 108 men. The Pamphylon, which was crewed by 120-160 men. The heaviest dromon is said to have 230 rowers and 70 marines. The smallest ship was the Monērēs which was crewed by 60 men and was used for scouting missions.

King Robert's Hammer, called a dromond by Ser Harys, dips 400 oars. Ser Imry's flagship, Fury, was triple-decked and dipped 300 oars. Lord Steffon and Stag of the Sea, dipped 200 oars. The Honor of Oltown, the flagship of the Hightower fleet, is four-decked. The dromonds of Aurane Waters fleet are huge as well. Sweet Cersei is equal to King Robert's Hammer and Lord Tywin is said to be twice the size of both. The medieval dromonds of Westeros are much bigger than the Byzantine dromons. 7 galleys are larger then 100 oars, and only 2 are larger then a Dromon, and the rest are built after that. The common galley (93+200 of the Redwyne fleet) is 100 oars or under (we still do not know if the Redwyne fleet is 100 or 200 ships, so it may be ~100 of 100 oars, or 200 of fewer oars) , which is smaller then the standard Dromon.

5. The book has constantly mentioned Carracks as being one the types of ships used. Carracks were not developed until the 15th century (1401 to 1500). This gives us a place to pinpoint the science and technology of the Seven Kingdoms. Westeros is clearly closer to the late Middle-Ages than it is to the old Byzantine empire in terms of science, technology and culture. The different types of ships are from different times in history, and not all of them were at the same time. A galley from the 16th century would not be sunk by another with a ram, because it is built differently.

6. Back to the Iron Fleet. In AFFC and ADWD, we know that Victarian's ship is large enough to have a captains cabin below decks, aft of the ship. Additionally, from the books we know that the Iron Fleet has taken on stores of grain, game, and fresh water in the Stepstones. On the Isle of Cedars, the fleet takes on huge black boars, piglets and fresh fruit. Victarian lets us know that the ships have larders (cool places to store and prepare meat). Before taking on the boars and piglets, the fleet had slaughtered enough to fill their larders with bacon, smoked ham, and salted pork. In addition to a crew of warriors, workers, and oarsmen, the ships have room for a huge amount of stores. Victarian also lets us know in AFFC that the ships have smaller ships attached to row ashore when the ships anchor. This are big ships. They may be longships, but they are incredibly big longships. Bigger than even the Ormen Lange. Speculation with little base. Victarion is the only one mentioned as having a longboat onboard, and his and Balon's ships are mentioned as being larger then the rest of the Iron Fleet's ships. "The next day he gave command of Moat

Cailin to Ralf Kenning and set off overland for the Fever River where the Iron Fleet lay amongst the reeds and willows". The Iron Fleet was in the Fever River, and the Ironborn made thier way to Moat Cailin overland, not on longboats as you claimed before. The fleet is made of large longships, but still ones that can sail upriver in shallow waters.

From ADWD, we know that the Iron Fleet may have even bigger ships. When the Iron Fleet left the Stepstones, Victarian split the Iron Fleet into three smaller fleets and set the meeting point at the Isle of Cedars. While in the Stepstones, the fleet took the Noble Lady, a great cog. In the Redwyne straights and off the coast of Dorne, the fleet took five other ships: three cogs, a galleas, and a galley. A total of ninety-nine ships left the Stepstones in three proud fleets...likely with 33 ships per fleet. At this point the fleet has 4 cogs. I think its safe to say that cogs are not a normal part of the Iron Fleet. The "Prizes" and ships full with slaves to sell in Lys. But sure, make up figures. Because a fleet with 100 longships includes cogs to fight war galleys...

The swiftest ships were given to Red Ralf Stonehouse. The larger, heavier, slower ships were given to Ralf the Limper and headed for Lys to sell slaves and take on stores. Victarian took the rest. At the Isle of Cedars, Victarian brought 22 of his ships, Ralf the Limper brought 14, and from Red Ralf's fleet only 9 ships. Nine cogs and fishing boats were taken along the way to bring the fleet's total to 54 ships. The heavier, slower, larger fleet of ships included 4 taken cogs, but clearly indicate an even larger, heavier class of longships that may dip 100 to 200+ oars. Bullshit.

All of this information is to cement that fact that GRRM uses the Byzantine dromons and Viking longships as a blueprint and visual aid for the readers who asked questions about the specifics of the ships used in the books. Using the Carrack as a historical placeholder, it is safe to say that the ships, weapons, science and technology of the Seven Kingdoms is on par with that of the late Middle-Ages of Europe. Carracks were not used or developed until the 15th century (1401-1500). Already debunked.

Lepanto happened in 1571. The only major difference in that battle from the ones going on in Westeros is the invention and use of the cannon. The ships at Lepanto averaged 6 to 8 cannons per ship. There are no gun ports in use at this point. We are not talking about the sail powered ships used by England, France, and Spain in Napoleonic Europe. These cannons were used on the main deck and moved about as needed. The ships were still the same oar powered galleys used in the Middle-Ages. To sum the errors here - You compare a galley to a galley with ~1,000 years of technological difference because they are both named "galley", and both have oars. It does'nt work that way.

Bottom line: it is more than appropriate to use the Battle of Lepanto to calculate ship sizes and crew compositions. I think at this stage it is clear that the Battle of Lepanto has nothing to add to the discussion other then legnth.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. The number of oars typically depict speed, but it could be otherwise I suppose. That is why I said it could be said/estimated. No falsehood.

2. Naval rams were first used in 535 BC. They have been used in the ironclad era (1860's). Plough Rams were employed in both world wars. Rams could be mounted and removed at will. Nothing to do with ship design until the advent of the plough rams.

In Lepanto, the Christina fleet purposely removed their rams because the battle plan was to board and use close quarter fighting. The Muslims kept their rams. So, yes rams were still at play by Lepanto.

Rams are a device and ramming is a tactic used at need. This has nothing to do with ship design.

3. We know the Redwynes have 200 warships and 1000 carracks, cogs, whalers, and other shipping vessels. This is stated clearly in the books. What we have not seen is a Westerosi war galley that dips less than 100 oars. From the size of the crews for the dromons, your analysis cannot even come close to being correct.

FYI, we only have 7+ named dromonds/galleys. Could easily be more.

4. This is wrong again. King Balon's Great Kraken, Victarian's Iron Victory and the ships of the Iron Fleet are all mentioned together in the same breath. Why would lesser longships be in an elite military formation that takes on the Royal and Redwyne fleets?

Because Victarian is the only POV that gives a command to lower small boats to go ashore the rest of the Iron Fleet has no smaller ships? You make less and less sense.

I always said the Fleet anchored in the Fever and made their way to the moat by land. I never disputed this. At the King's Moot, the entire fleet either blockaded the rest or anchored and took smaller ships to the King's Moot. They never beached like the normal longships of the ironborn.

5. By the time the fleet split into three smaller fleets, the Iron Fleet had taken only 4 cogs. The larger, heavier, slower ships made for Lys. This likely included the cogs. Ralf the Limper returned with 14 of the ships he was originally sent out with. He clearly had more. These ships were to sell slaves and cowards, and then use the money to load up on provisions.

FYI, cogs are not warships. The are large trading vessels.

6. We are clearly in the mid to late Middle-Ages in terms of technology. Dromonds are being used, not dromons. Society by this time is clearly away from the Byzantine empire. This is Medieval Europe in its latter stages.

Bottom line: Debating with you is pointless. You only make use of the text and historical principles to fit round pegs into square holes. Your arguments are making less and less sense when confronted with the text. Fellow posters can easily verify my post by reading the book and make their own judgments.

I think your only goal is to be argumentative for the sake of arguing. Worst of all, you continue to take a hostile tone. It shows you have little to add to this discussion.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Selective quoting is kind of bad style. The entire quote you are referring to is

Which is very important, because Lepanto was the last battle of war galleys in the Venetian style. Venice itself put most ships off the christian fleet into the water, by the way.

I've decided to no longer answer this poster. Its pointless and not in the best interest of honest discussion.

[Nyrhex]

3. We know the Redwynes have 200 warships and 1000 carracks, cogs, whalers, and other shipping vessels. This is stated clearly in the books. What we have not seen is a Westerosi war galley that dips less than 100 oars. From the size of the crews for the dromons, your analysis cannot even come close to being correct. A Dromon with 230 oarsmen is larger then the 200 oarsmen on 5 of the largest war galleys of the Royal Navy. The Fury and King Robert's Hammer are the only two that are larger. You are the one that gave the Longships of the Iron Fleet twice the size of war dromons. A pamphylon is the closest to the War galleys we read in the books. ~100 oarsmen and about 20-60 crew and marines sounds ok, if closer to 120.

FYI, we only have 7+ named dromonds/galleys. Could easily be more. No, we are told of 7 that are larger then 100 oars, and the rest are 100 oars.

4. This is wrong again. King Balon's Great Kraken, Victarian's Iron Victory and the ships of the Iron Fleet are all mentioned together in the same breath. Why would lesser longships be in an elite military formation that takes on the Royal and Redwyne fleets? Why do you take a flagship and claim it is the same size of the rest of the ships, when every other flagships is several times the size of the common ships in it's fleet?

Because Victarian is the only POV that gives a command to lower small boats to go ashore the rest of the Iron Fleet is has no smaller ships? You make less and less sense. Because the flagship has something, all the ships have it too? Like all the galleys in the Royal Navy have catapults and a deck of scorpions? "You make less and less sense".

I always said the Fleet anchored in the Fever and made their way to the moat by land. I never disputed this Posts #24, #27, #29.... At the King's Moot, the entire fleet either blockaded the rest or anchored and took smaller ships to the King's Moot. They never beached like the normal longships of the ironborn. "where the Iron Fleet lay amongst the reeds and willows" - That is not a description of ships at sea, or anchor.

5. By the time the fleet split into three smaller fleets, the Iron Fleet had taken only 4 cogs. The larger, heavier, slower ships made for Lys. This likely included the cogs. Ralf the Limper returned with 14 of the ships he was originally sent out with. He clearly had more. These ships were to sell slaves and cowards, and then use the money to load up on provisions. If the ships are filled with people to sell, logic dictates that they would be slower, regardless of class. The larger ships are the 4 cogs, a galeas and a galley. The slower longships with added slaves are also used, aprobably also acting as an escort. But no, too simple an explenation... a third of the Iron Iron Fleet must be cogs or longships with 200+ oars...

6. We are clearly in the mid to late Middle-Ages in terms of technology. Dromonds are being used, not dromons. Society by this time is clearly away from the Byzantine empire. This is Medieval Europe in it latter stages. No, that is false. We are in a fantasy setting that draws from several points in history, and not in order. The writer gives us the name dromon, yet they have rams. There is no greek fire, other then the odd version that is used in a primitive fashion, and there are no guns.

Bottom line: Debating with you is pointless. You only make use of the text and historical principles to fit round pegs into square holes.

LOL

Of course it is. If I don't accept your vesion, I am wrong. It cannot possibly be the other way around. That is circular logic, and it only shows that you can't properly address my points, and so resort to ignore them completely. Sticking fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la I can't hear you" is not going to serve here.

Your arguments are making less and less sense when confronted with the text. Fellow posters can easily verify my post by reading the book and make their own judgments.

Baseless automatic response to points you cannot properly address.

The more text, the more it fits. Your argument was using the text. Then you saw that it won't fit, and so you turned to a historic battle in order to "fit round pegs to sqaure holes". It does'nt work, so you resort, yet again, to your line "I have clearly made in previose posts a solid point, and anyone else can go and read it". Well, no, you have'nt. You have'nt addressed several key points, rather chose to repeat ones you have made, even after debunked, and make up numbers out of your assesments to sound more authentic. You are doing everyone in this thread a disservice, and are an incredibly bad debater, who resorts to name-calling and child-like defenses when faced with an argument he can't easily tackle.

I think your only goal is to be argumentative for the sake of arguing. Worst of all, you continue to take a hostile tone. It shows you have little to add to this discussion.

And I think that you simply can't stand to not have the finale word, and you resort to baseless pesonal accusations rather then face a point that you feel is too trickey to face. I think that you are either obliviose to your own behaviour, or perhaps you think that it is ok to call me names and be generally hostile to me while it is forbidden to be hostile to your posts after such behaviour on your side. So far your contribution was reading a few lines that could be read in a different tone, and speculate an exaggerated mental picture of how the Iron Fleet looks like. Every line in the text, or one from GRRM that will not sit well with your version is set aside, while anything that might be speculated to be of varrying size is increased to the extreme and then some.

Now here is how it is going to go. You are either going to have another post where you lose it, and call me names and such, or you are going to end it "and this time it is for real". Or, you can make a post where you drop the child-like behaviour and actually adress the points at hand without finishing your post with a "bottom line you are not making sense, debating with you is pointless" paragraph. Try and keep it civil or there is realy no more reason to reply. We have both quoted enough text to compile a full book. Any person that wishes can go over and read our and others' posts, and then think to himself if the descriptions he remembers of the longships of the Iron Fleet or the war galleys of the Royal Navy fit with a Late Roman war galley, an early Viking longship, a Venatian gun-equiped galley, or other.

The bottom line, this thread has started with a simple-ish question - How many men does Victarion have, so we can better estimate his performance in battle. The numbers here are somewhere between 2,500-5,000+. Who cares realy? Victarion is realy only faced with the Company of the Cat, with it's 3,000 men. He either has slightly less, or more then them. the other Sellswords are on his side most likely, so it's not realy that important.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The bottom line, this thread has started with a simple-ish question - How many men does Victarion have, so we can better estimate his performance in battle. The numbers here are somewhere between 2,500-5,000+. Who cares realy? Victarion is realy only faced with the Company of the Cat, with it's 3,000 men. He either has slightly less, or more then them. the other Sellswords are on his side most likely, so it's not realy that important.

Upper limit was ~12,000 actually. I won't comment on anything else, talking myself hoarse serves no purpose.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Upper limit was ~12,000 actually. I won't comment on anything else, talking myself hoarse serves no purpose.

Agreed....we know whats what.

[Nyrhex]

Upper limit was ~12,000 actually. I won't comment on anything else, talking myself hoarse serves no purpose.

Of the half fleet that arrives in Meereen and includes captured ships with diminished crews? Or are you refering to the entire fleet once it is all there? 12,000 on 61 ships is ~196 per ship, and that can't possibly be right.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

I would consider Victarion's Iron Fleets full force of fighting men to be between 4,000-12,000 from what I know of the Iron Fleet, Viking ship design and guesstimate. Having 54% of that after the storms and some slaves on the oars fighting for him and possibly a few more stragglers meeting up with him I would see him having a force of 2,500-7,000 fighting men. As to the full strength of the Ironborn I would estimate between 13,000 and 26,000 battle ready men (15-45 yo) with about 8,000-18,000 leaving the isles with Euron heading south.

If you guys have questions on how I did these numbers up in my head just quote and comment :) Anyone in agreement?

If I had to put money on it the 100 ships of the Iron Fleet would be able to carry 7,000 fighting men, give or take a 1,000 but my estimate above accounts for the fact that George could have imagined a whole new design for their ships that is part galley, part trireme and part longship, at which point crew levels could be well over 100 men.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I would consider Victarion's Iron Fleets full force of fighting men to be between 4,000-12,000 from what I know of the Iron Fleet, Viking ship design and guesstimate. Having 54% of that after the storms and some slaves on the oars fighting for him and possibly a few more stragglers meeting up with him I would see him having a force of 2,500-7,000 fighting men. As to the full strength of the Ironborn I would estimate between 13,000 and 26,000 battle ready men (15-45 yo) with about 8,000-18,000 leaving the isles with Euron heading south.

If you guys have questions on how I did these numbers up in my head just quote and comment :) Anyone in agreement?

If I had to put money on it the 100 ships of the Iron Fleet would be able to carry 7,000 fighting men, give or take a 1,000 but my estimate above accounts for the fact that George could have imagined a whole new design for their ships that is part galley, part trireme and part longship, at which point crew levels could be well over 100 men.

I don't know if GRRM has dreamed up a new design of longship, but the ones in his narrative are considerably larger than even the largest recorded viking longships. I don't know how much of the thread you have already read, but you definitely have touched on some of my previous points. I have suggested a galley/longship hybrid of sorts. It fits with all the information we have been given from GRRM and the books themselves.

1. The Ormen Lange (996 AD) was the largest viking longship of its day. It was 44 meters (144 ft) in length, 7 meters (30 feet) in width, a gunwhale of 4 meters (13 ft), and 68 oars. The ship of Earl Philippus (1206 AD) was even larger. It was 50 meters (164 ft) long, 15 meters (49 ft) wide, and dipped 72 oars. These were huge ocean going longships that carried large amounts of cargo, stores, troops, and additional personnel.

2. The ship Lord Balon had built for Theon (the 'Sea Bitch') was 100 ft long, had a single mast, dipped 50 oars, and had a main deck large enough to hold 100 men. This is clearly much larger than the normal ironborn longship....due to Theon's rank and station. However, Theon tells us that his ship is not as big as his father's Great Kraken or his uncle's (Victarian) Iron Victory.

3. From Aurane Waters in AFFC, we know that the Iron Fleet and Lord Balon's Great Kraken are larger longships built for battle, not raiding. The ships in the fleet are the equal of the lesser war galleys of Westeros.

4. In ADWD, Victarian tells us that the ships of the Iron Fleet are smaller than the great dromonds of the greenlands, but three times the size of normal longships, and that his ships are fit to meet the king's own fleets in open battle. They have deep hulls and savage rams.

5. Taking a look at Stannis' fleet from ACOK, it consisted of 200 ships organized into 10 battle lines of 20 ships a piece. The first three lines, the first 60 ships, were the Westerosi ships. Fifty-six of those ships dipped 100 oars. The other four dipped 200+ oars. King Robert's Hammer dips 400 oars, Sweet Cersei dips 400 oars, and Lord Tywin is twice as large as both of them. Its pretty safe to say that ships that dip 100 oars are the standard for Westeros. The ships of the Iron Fleet are equal to these more or less.

6. We know from Victarian that the smaller ships are attached to the ships for anchoring and going ashore. We also see the fleet taking on stores of game, grain, and fresh water in the Stepstones. At the Isle of Cedars, the fleet slaughters huge black boars (described as the biggest that any ironman has ever seen) and piglets to fill their larders with smoked ham, bacon, and salted pork. When it was time to go, the ironmen took one live boars and piglets to slaughter at need, and also fruit to put in stores. These have to be exceptionally large longships to carry this amount of stores and still have room for troops, oarsmen, sailors, etc.

7. Victarian indicates that the ships of the Iron Fleet may be of varying size and design. Upon leaving the Stepstones, he splits the fleet into three smaller fleets. The fleet was down to 93 ships, but picked up four cogs, a galley, and a gallaes along the way for a total of 99.

He sends the larger, heavier, slower ships under Ralf the Limper to Lys in order to unload slaves and use the money to load up even more stores. He sends the fastest ships on the most dangerous route under Red Ralf Stonehouse. Victarian takes the rest. At the Isle of Cedars, Victarian brings in 22 of his fleet, 14 of Ralf the Limper's larger heavier ships make it, and only 9 of Red Ralf's make it for a total of 45. It is clear that each fleet lost many ships. Nine cogs and fishing ships were taken along the way to bring the fleet up to 54. However, Victarian is clearly upset because the cogs and fishing ships would be poor substitutes for the lost ships of the Iron Fleet. He slaps Ralf the Limper for the ships he lost.

To be clear, cogs are huge trading vessels, not warships, and certainly not normally part of the Iron Fleet. Secondly, the Iron fleet seem to have larger, heavier, slower and possibly lighter, speedier classes of hybrid longship.

8. Lastly, GRRM in responding to a question regarding the 20,000 men Robb Stark took south, told us that every great house/region can muster at least that amount of warriors.

Conclusion: I like your numbers for the most part. I agree that GRRM has dreamed up a longboat/galley hybrid in terms of the Iron Fleet. The ships are still of longboard design, but monstrously large compared to normal longships. The ships for all the would appear to eclipse the Ormen Lange and the ship of Earl that were previously mentioned in my post.

At full strength. I'd say Victarian has between 10,000 and 15,000 warriors in the Iron Fleet. I like @ Bright Blue Eyes estimate of 12,000. Given all of the information discussed from the books, history, and the author, I would up your crew number to 100+ warriors per ship.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

I don't know if GRRM has dreamed up a new design of longship, but the ones in his narrative are considerably larger than even the largest recorded viking longships. I don't know how much of the thread you have already read, but you definitely have touched on some of my previous points. I have suggested a galley/longship hybrid of sorts. It fits with all the information we have been given from GRRM and the books themselves.

1. The Ormen Lange (996 AD) was the largest viking longship of its day. It was 44 meters (144 ft) in length, 7 meters (30 feet) in width, a gunwhale of 4 meters (13 ft), and 68 oars. The ship of Earl Philippus (1206 AD) was even larger. It was 50 meters (164 ft) long, 15 meters (49 ft) wide, and dipped 72 oars. These were huge ocean going longships that carried large amounts of cargo, stores, troops, and additional personnel.

2. The ship Lord Balon had built for Theon (the 'Sea Bitch') was 100 ft long, had a single mast, dipped 50 oars, and had a main deck large enough to hold 100 men. This is clearly much larger than the normal ironborn longship....due to Theon's rank and station. However, Theon tells us that his ship is not as big as his father's Great Kraken or his uncle's (Victarian) Iron Victory.

3. From Aurane Waters in AFFC, we know that the Iron Fleet and Lord Balon's Great Kraken are larger longships built for battle, not raiding. The ships in the fleet are the equal of the lesser war galleys of Westeros.

4. In ADWD, Victarian tells us that the ships of the Iron Fleet are smaller than the great dromonds of the greenlands, but three times the size of normal longships, and that his ships are fit to meet the king's own fleets in open battle. They have deep hulls and savage rams.

5. Taking a look at Stannis' fleet from ACOK, it consisted of 200 ships organized into 10 battle lines of 20 ships a piece. The first three lines, the first 60 ships, were the Westerosi ships. Fifty-six of those ships dipped 100 oars. The other four dipped 200+ oars. King Robert's Hammer dips 400 oars, Sweet Cersei dips 400 oars, and Lord Tywin is twice as large as both of them. Its pretty safe to say that ships that dip 100 oars are the standard for Westeros. The ships of the Iron Fleet are equal to these more or less.

6. We know from Victarian that the smaller ships are attached to the ships for anchoring and going ashore. We also see the fleet taking on stores of game, grain, and fresh water in the Stepstones. At the Isle of Cedars, the fleet slaughters huge black boars (described as the biggest that any ironman has ever seen) and piglets to fill their larders with smoked ham, bacon, and salted pork. When it was time to go, the ironmen took one live boars and piglets to slaughter at need, and also fruit to put in stores. These have to be exceptionally large longships to carry this amount of stores and still have room for troops, oarsmen, sailors, etc.

7. Victarian indicates that the ships of the Iron Fleet may be of varying size and design. Upon leaving the Stepstones, he splits the fleet into three smaller fleets. The fleet was down to 93 ships, but picked up four cogs, a galley, and a gallaes along the way for a total of 99.

He sends the larger, heavier, slower ships under Ralf the Limper to Lys in order to unload slaves and use the money to load up even more stores. He sends the fastest ships on the most dangerous route under Red Ralf Stonehouse. Victarian takes the rest. At the Isle of Cedars, Victarian brings in 22 of his fleet, 14 of Ralf the Limper's larger heavier ships make it, and only 9 of Red Ralf's make it for a total of 45. It is clear that each fleet lost many ships. Nine cogs and fishing ships were taken along the way to bring the fleet up to 54. However, Victarian is clearly upset because the cogs and fishing ships would be poor substitutes for the lost ships of the Iron Fleet. He slaps Ralf the Limper for the ships he lost.

To be clear, cogs are huge trading vessels, not warships, and certainly not normally part of the Iron Fleet. Secondly, the Iron fleet seem to have larger, heavier, slower and possibly lighter, speedier classes of hybrid longship.

8. Lastly, GRRM in responding to a question regarding the 20,000 men Robb Stark took south, told us that every great house/region can muster at least that amount of warriors.

Conclusion: I like your numbers for the most part. I agree that GRRM has dreamed up a longboat/galley hybrid in terms of the Iron Fleet. The ships are still of longboard design, but monstrously large compared to normal longships. The ships for all the would appear to eclipse the Ormen Lange and the ship of Earl that were previously mentioned in my post.

At full strength. I'd say Victarian has between 10,000 and 15,000 warriors in the Iron Fleet. I like @ Bright Blue Eyes estimate of 12,000. Given all of the information discussed from the books, history, and the author, I would up your crew number to 100+ warriors per ship.

4. I remember, thanks for the reference. I would say that the Iron fleets ships are between 60 and 120 feet long and most of them will dip 40+ oars and have either half that man men as 'marines' (fighting men not rowing or tending the ship... feels odd calling them marines though).

5. I would say 100 oars was correct as the average war galleys oars. 4 banks of 25 oars would still be a big boat.

6. Carrying livestock was common on the majority of ships, even on sea canoes in SAmerica pre-westerners (carib indians etc) but your suggestion of tenders was not missed by me, hence I suggested the hybrid as a long ship could not support any substantial tenders unless it was a vast monster, and we know these boats to be fairly swift. They would also have at least 1 sub deck from Victarion's descriptions in the book, meaning they are already unlike most long ships which used sailcloth tents over an open deck.

7. I agree and factored for that.

8.I read and watched Elio's discussions which take this into further detail and extrapolate using medieval pop density theories and standing army percentages etc as well as looking into roman-esk setting as well. I also included the fact that they are loosely based on the viking descendants who ruled the western isle in scotland who were farmers and seafarers and took thralls, so my count includes indentured fighters as well.

I think he also included a bit of trireme design, except without the greek fire, nampha etc as his equivalent (wild fire) would not be something Victarion would use (he would mistrust it on his ships).

I would disagree and say at max 12,000 fighters in the fleet. Could be as high as 18,000 if you include non combatant crew etc. I would agree that many ships have 80+ crew but my estimate worked in that many were just 80 and that the richer captains and those closer to Vic would have fucking massive ships. I imagine that Iron Victory would have 200+ crew (fighters, servers, boys, armourer etc). I reckon highly that he will land in Slavers Bay (Meereen) with no more than 4,000 fighting men, with the vast majority of these being under 25 years old.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

Would just like to say, I am a big fan of going into detail but I just read back a bit on the thread. Please try keep it casual guys! No fighting or name calling, just discussion please :)

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

Now here is how it is going to go. You are either going to have another post where you lose it, and call me names and such, or you are going to end it "and this time it is for real". Or, you can make a post where you drop the child-like behaviour and actually adress the points at hand without finishing your post with a "bottom line you are not making sense, debating with you is pointless" paragraph. Try and keep it civil or there is realy no more reason to reply. We have both quoted enough text to compile a full book. Any person that wishes can go over and read our and others' posts, and then think to himself if the descriptions he remembers of the longships of the Iron Fleet or the war galleys of the Royal Navy fit with a Late Roman war galley, an early Viking longship, a Venatian gun-equiped galley, or other.

The bottom line, this thread has started with a simple-ish question - How many men does Victarion have, so we can better estimate his performance in battle. The numbers here are somewhere between 2,500-5,000+. Who cares realy? Victarion is realy only faced with the Company of the Cat, with it's 3,000 men. He either has slightly less, or more then them. the other Sellswords are on his side most likely, so it's not realy that important.

Thanks for calming things man, I hate when forum fights break out. I would like to agree with 2,500-5,000+ (7,500 max) as his fighting force upon landing in Meereen. I think he will pulverize the Company of Cats and Yunkai forces but will lose a fairly large chunk of his men (500+) as he has no cavalry. As to his performance, he will do well me thinks :D Can't wait to see Victarion and Euron on the show! Let us all pray they don't cut any more majorly awesome characters like them :P

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

4. I remember, thanks for the reference. I would say that the Iron fleets ships are between 60 and 120 feet long and most of them will dip 40+ oars and have either half that man men as 'marines' (fighting men not rowing or tending the ship... feels odd calling them marines though).

5. I would say 100 oars was correct as the average war galleys oars. 4 banks of 25 oars would still be a big boat.

6. Carrying livestock was common on the majority of ships, even on sea canoes in SAmerica pre-westerners (carib indians etc) but your suggestion of tenders was not missed by me, hence I suggested the hybrid as a long ship could not support any substantial tenders unless it was a vast monster, and we know these boats to be fairly swift. They would also have at least 1 sub deck from Victarion's descriptions in the book, meaning they are already unlike most long ships which used sailcloth tents over an open deck.

7. I agree and factored for that.

8.I read and watched Elio's discussions which take this into further detail and extrapolate using medieval pop density theories and standing army percentages etc as well as looking into roman-esk setting as well. I also included the fact that they are loosely based on the viking descendants who ruled the western isle in scotland who were farmers and seafarers and took thralls, so my count includes indentured fighters as well.

I think he also included a bit of trireme design, except without the greek fire, nampha etc as his equivalent (wild fire) would not be something Victarion would use (he would mistrust it on his ships).

I would disagree and say at max 12,000 fighters in the fleet. Could be as high as 18,000 if you include non combatant crew etc. I would agree that many ships have 80+ crew but my estimate worked in that many were just 80 and that the richer captains and those closer to Vic would have fucking massive ships. I imagine that Iron Victory would have 200+ crew (fighters, servers, boys, armourer etc). I reckon highly that he will land in Slavers Bay (Meereen) with no more than 4,000 fighting men, with the vast majority of these being under 25 years old.

4. The ships of the Iron Fleet are said to be the equal of the lesser galleys of the mainland. Think about Theon's Sea Bitch as the floor in my opinion and the larger, heavier ships that went to Lys as the max. His ship was 100 ft long, dipped 50 oars, and had a deck that could hold 100 men. Take the smallest, swiftest ships and place them above Theon's. I would start the estimation at 120 ft and max out a bit above or below the Earl of Filippus' longship (50 meters). Theon's ship is likely twice the size of the normal longship. The ships of the Iron Fleet are three. Its the presence of the larders and the amount and size of the stores that they are able to take on that drives my analysis.

You also have to factor in the fact that the ironborn use thralls/dedicated oarsmen, which is quite different. This leaves their warriors/marines free.

We diverge on the average ship size and number of men/fighters per ship. I still like 12,000 troops at full strength, with the possibility of it being as high as 15,000.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Thanks for calming things man, I hate when forum fights break out. I would like to agree with 2,500-5,000+ (7,500 max) as his fighting force upon landing in Meereen. I think he will pulverize the Company of Cats and Yunkai forces but will lose a fairly large chunk of his men (500+) as he has no cavalry. As to his performance, he will do well me thinks :D Can't wait to see Victarion and Euron on the show! Let us all pray they don't cut any more majorly awesome characters like them :P

With only 45 on the original Iron Fleet left at this point, 5,000+ is about the right estimate.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Of the half fleet that arrives in Meereen and includes captured ships with diminished crews? Or are you refering to the entire fleet once it is all there? 12,000 on 61 ships is ~196 per ship, and that can't possibly be right.

It's a upper limit. We don't know how many ships were lost with all hands and how many were just too damaged to sail any further, with the crews changing ship.

It is likely that most ships were just abandoned. Breaking a mast in a storm? Ripping open the bottom at an unknown coast? All major damage and very difficult to repair, especially in unknown waters and under time pressure but it won't doom the crew if another ship is close by.

[Nyrhex]

It's a upper limit. We don't know how many ships were lost with all hands and how many were just too damaged to sail any further, with the crews changing ship.

It is likely that most ships were just abandoned. Breaking a mast in a storm? Ripping open the bottom at an unknown coast? All major damage and very difficult to repair, especially in unknown waters and under time pressure but it won't doom the crew if another ship is close by.

I think 12,000 on 54 longships is an overestimation. The ships are not neccesarily lost. Victarion places one ship on the Isle of Caders for stragglers. The storms blew them apart, not destroyed many ships. Considering that Stannis was only able to cramp 1,500-2,000 men on Saan's 30 galleys, it seems a streach to claim that Victarion could shove 12,000 on 54 longships, and for a trip that lasts more then the hop-skip-and-a-jump from KL to Dragonstone.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

I think 12,000 on 54 longships is an overestimation. The ships are not neccesarily lost. Victarion places one ship on the Isle of Caders for stragglers. The storms blew them apart, not destroyed many ships. Considering that Stannis was only able to cramp 1,500-2,000 men on Saan's 30 galleys, it seems a streach to claim that Victarion could shove 12,000 on 54 longships, and for a trip that lasts more then the hop-skip-and-a-jump from KL to Dragonstone.

You got it man. 12,000 is far too many. Anything over 6,000 is getting unlikely. The general logistics of organizing that many fighting men on land is staggering, try do it at see with no supply chain! I mean Stmt has said his piece and I can agree to it in theory on some levels. My reasoning is that we must not only consider absolute extremes of capacity as Victarion in my opinion would prefer a cohesive fighting force with 1k less men than an extra 1k men he would lose or not use.

You also have to consider the frequency at which seafarers injured themselves, especially in storms.

So if I had to bet on what GRRM writes, I would say no more than 6,000 fighters.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You got it man. 12,000 is far too many. Anything over 6,000 is getting unlikely. The general logistics of organizing that many fighting men on land is staggering, try do it at see with no supply chain! I mean Stmt has said his piece and I can agree to it in theory on some levels. My reasoning is that we must not only consider absolute extremes of capacity as Victarion in my opinion would prefer a cohesive fighting force with 1k less men than an extra 1k men he would lose or not use.

You also have to consider the frequency at which seafarers injured themselves, especially in storms.

So if I had to bet on what GRRM writes, I would say no more than 6,000 fighters.

When discussing 12,000 fighters, I'm pretty sure we were discussing the Iron Fleet at its original full strength. Having that amount of men on 45 original ships of the fleet and 9 or so captured ships (cogs, fishing vessels, slave vessels) does not fit. That would mean an average of 222 fighters per ship, even after the heavy losses caused by the storms.

I fully agree that 5,000 to 6,000+ fighters is the count at this point. The main wildcard will be coming back to Westeros. Did the rest of the force make it the meeting place at the Isle of Cedars? Will they make for Slaver's Bay? Victarian could have reinforcements on the way if he needs them.

[Ponys123]

If Euron levied every single captain with their crews, as well as all the Ironborn living inland, he'd probably have dozens of thousands of men, since the Iron Islands can probably support something like 500'000 inhabitants, though this time he's taken only the experienced raiders and the captains in his vassals' retinues. The Iron Fleet - the Greyjoys' standing navy/army (marine corps, lol) - numbers 100 warships. If we take the average crew of a dromon (or a big longship, whatever) as 100-150 men, that amounts to some 10-15 thousand marines and crew at full theoretical strength, though they probably number far less. Besides that, he took a large number of levied ships with him to the Reach, and since it's doubtful he would've let Victarion off with the majority of his troops, it's probably at least that many again (though mostly in much smaller longships).

That leaves us with at least 10'000 Ironborn on this campaign, though likely more.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

If Euron levied every single captain with their crews, as well as all the Ironborn living inland, he'd probably have dozens of thousands of men, since the Iron Islands can probably support something like 500'000 inhabitants, though this time he's taken only the experienced raiders and the captains in his vassals' retinues. The Iron Fleet - the Greyjoys' standing navy/army (marine corps, lol) - numbers 100 warships. If we take the average crew of a dromon (or a big longship, whatever) as 100-150 men, that amounts to some 10-15 thousand marines and crew at full theoretical strength, though they probably number far less. Besides that, he took a large number of levied ships with him to the Reach, and since it's doubtful he would've let Victarion off with the majority of his troops, it's probably at least that many again (though mostly in much smaller longships).

That leaves us with at least 10'000 Ironborn on this campaign, though likely more.

At full pre-war strength, 10,000 to 15,000 warriors is my estimate (150 per ship). 12,000 (120 per ship) has been the most popular estimation. We know the Greyjoy's can muster at least 20,000 men. Popular figures estimate them to raise 20,000 to 25,000. Euron has 400 longships at his disposal. His game is to wreak havoc and keep his enemies at bay. The key to his true goal of total conquest lies with Dany and her dragons. It makes sense that Victarian will have the best of the best with him given the importance of the mission. I think 12,000 is a solid estimate before the Iron Fleet began to lose ships.