theory: (long) The missing prophesy of "THE dragon" and the "blood OF the dragon"... and direwolves

[WatcherOnTheWall]

Aaaaallllllll that being said, I'd find it interesting to understand why you think Rhaegal is meant for Jon over Viserion. So much of the above is speculation.

Well I don't have any clues to back up a theory as you do, it is just simply because Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar, the man that most of us believe is Jon's father. So it would just be more fitting than Viserion as Jon never had a thing to do with Viserys.

[Frey family reunion]

Excellent post, of course as you know you're preaching to the choir with me regarding this theory. I still think your theory regarding Dany's memory of the Lemon tree is brilliant. The fact that she is confusing memories of a past life with childhood memories makes a lot of sense and will certainly add some poignancy at the end of the story. It also gives a reason that Dany would have an immediate connection with Jon Snow.

As for Lyanna's connection with Summerhall, I wonder if it may be through Jenny of Oldstones as opposed to any wife of Aegon V. When the Witch of High Hearth sees Arya, it reminds her of Jenny Oldstones, and we are told that Arya both physically and spiritually takes after her Aunt Lyanna.

For some reason many on this board have a visceral, negative reaction to the idea of reincarnation which I really don't understand. It seems far stranger things have happened in this series.

One additional clue that we have about ancient spirits traveling through successive generations comes from a conversation between Bloodraven and Bran. Bran notices that when he wargs with the Ravens he often finds other spirts residing within them. Bloodraven tells Bran that these are the souls of ancient skinchangers living on in the ravens. Now obviously a ravens lifespan is fairly short, so we know at least that skinchangers obttain a degree of immortality by living on through successive generations of ravens. My guess is soemthing similar is happening through successive generations of people as well.

[Lord Damian]

about the lemon tree, winterfell had a greenhouse in which during winter vegetables and fruits could be grown year round, even in winter due to the pipes with steam. maybe Dany's future, not past is Winterfell rebuilt with a husband and her children?

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Interesting theory about past lives.

Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen died in 232 AL. He had an infant, minor son at the time of his death. No one knows what happened to the son. Aerion also might of fathered some Bastards while in Lys.

The Great Council came together in 233 AL to decide the succession of the Iron Throne after Maekars death in 233 AL.

From Wiki:

"Maekar's oldest son, Daeron, called Daeron the Drunken, was a dissolute whore-monger who had died of a sexually transmitted pox, and left only a feeble-witted daughter as a possible heir. His second son, Aerion Brightflame, was a cruel madman who had died in 232 as a result of drinking wildfire in the mistaken belief it would turn him into a dragon. Aemon and Aegon had not expected to inherit the throne with two grown sons ahead of them. Aemon was already a chained maester serving at his brother Daeron's castle.

The council decided to bypass Daeron's daughter and Aerion's son and first quietly offered the throne to Aemon, who declined the invitation. They then chose Aegon, who was crowned as Aegon V, the fourth son of the fourth son of Daeron II, earning him the name Aegon the Unlikely."

[The Others Take Ya]

Well I don't have any clues to back up a theory as you do, it is just simply because Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar, the man that most of us believe is Jon's father. So it would just be more fitting than Viserion as Jon never had a thing to do with Viserys.

Yah, that's exactly what I used to think too. :) Until I read tze's wonderful post on the colors of the dragons (cream is another word for white! I had a Homer Doh! moment.) and then reread Dany's vision/delirious dream when she lost Rhaego and got the white egg. Then I went down the rabbit hole of details. If you consider that in D and E we see characters dream about themselves as dragons and Viserys always considered himself the dragon, well, perhaps he wasn't so crazy. Somehow his essence might be in Viserion (though I'm not sure how yet).

Excellent post, of course as you know you're preaching to the choir with me regarding this theory. I still think your theory regarding Dany's memory of the Lemon tree is brilliant. The fact that she is confusing memories of a past life with childhood memories makes a lot of sense and will certainly add some poignancy at the end of the story. It also gives a reason that Dany would have an immediate connection with Jon Snow.

Yes, we've had the Stark family mostly killed off and through all sorts of torture. It would be interesting to get a family reunion of a sort that we don't expect in a Targaryen family. Of course, not all family members may want to be in it. (Jon Snow would rather be a Stark, I think.)

We're currently a choir of three that I know of. Pitifully tiny! You me and Lady Arya's Song I think.

Starks Among Us seems to be considering it still. :D Hope she joins our choir she has excellent posts!!! lol

As for Lyanna's connection with Summerhall, I wonder if it may be through Jenny of Oldstones as opposed to any wife of Aegon V. When the Witch of High Hearth sees Arya, it reminds her of Jenny Oldstones, and we are told that Arya both physically and spiritually takes after her Aunt Lyanna.

That could very well be. We don't have any sort of information on Egg's wife except he married her for love and they had lots of children together that were upset they couldn't do the same. We only know what Jaeharys the II looked like and not any of the other children. If Targ blood is weak and whoever that person married had strong Targ blood, then we would have gotten a clue from what the children looked like, but we don't even have that. :/

lol Maybe I'm having a visceral reaction to the thought of someone marrying their mother in a past life!!! :D It's still totally possible Jenny was Lyanna/Arya of course but that could be one reason I think that way.

I think I tend to think Ygritte was Jenny not just because of the above, (though I admit that's a lot of it) but also because it may play into why Ygritte kept telling Jon Snow "You know nothing!" because maybe she did know something because she used to Jenny of Oldstones and she knew it somehow. Being a wildling there were plenty of woods witches she would have been exposed to who probably could have told her the truth of her situation. Perhaps being kissed by fire isn't just a hair thing but a mark of being reincarnated among the wildlings because your previous body burned up? (It can't just plain be being kissed by a fiery Targ! Jon would have to kiss a lot of readheads! heh) It seems to me the Targs have a practice of burning their dead to free their essence from their body while the Starks have a tradition of holding the essence of their kings in their graves with iron swords, and the uber creepiness of the tomb and how Ned is worried about the spirits that may come loose when the swords degrade in AGOT Eddard I is good proof of that.

Why Targs let their essence be free as opposed to why Starks try to keep the kings in is, I'm sure, integral to the story of why the Others exist.

For some reason many on this board have a visceral, negative reaction to the idea of reincarnation which I really don't understand. It seems far stranger things have happened in this series.

Yes, I agree. Maybe they think it's too tropey? I think it has been been well set up with Dany's visions of being in Rheagar's armor and Rhaegar being in the HwtRD when she opens the door to it in a dream. On top of everything else Aemon said on his death bed and that Rheagar was writing to him about the prophesy (perhaps to ask about some old memories at Summerhall? Or to confirm if Aemon used to be his brother?).

And finally - what the heck is Azor Ahai REBORN supposed to mean anyway if not that the guy is reincarnated somehow??? I haven't had a clear answer on that one yet.

I love Stannis, but I just don't see where he was reborn from yet. I will say Robert/Cercei/Jaime certainly have my vote for being Aegon the IV/Queen Naerys/Prince Aemon the Dragonknight reborn - so that's one Baratheon brother down.

One additional clue that we have about ancient spirits traveling through successive generations comes from a conversation between Bloodraven and Bran. Bran notices that when he wargs with the Ravens he often finds other spirits residing within them. Bloodraven tells Bran that these are the souls of ancient skinchangers living on in the ravens. Now obviously a ravens lifespan is fairly short, so we know at least that skinchangers obttain a degree of immortality by living on through successive generations of ravens. My guess is something similar is happening through successive generations of people as well.

Yup, and my guess is that the ravens have more intelligence in them then anyone admits to themselves.

Consider when Jon and Maester Aemon are feeding the ravens in AGOT Jon VIII

He filled his fist and tossed the raw red morsels into the cage, and the squawking and squabbling grew hotter. Feathers flew as two of the larger birds fought over a choice piece. Quickly Jon grabbed a second handful and threw it in after the first. “Lord Mormont’s raven likes fruit and corn.”

“He is a rare bird,” the maester said. “Most ravens will eat grain, but they prefer flesh. It makes them strong, and I fear they relish the taste of blood. In that they are like men... and like men, not all ravens are alike.”

First - Mormont's raven doesn't usually eat meat/flesh, he prefers fruit and corn.

Second - We know when Mormont died, his raven ate his face. Jon even muses about in adwd "when I die will you eat my face too?"

Third - Most ravens will eat flesh.

Fourth - In the AFFC Prologue Pate mentions Maester Walgrave wants the WHITE ravens to eat him when he dies. Not the black ones. Hmmmm....

Therefore, there is something really peculiar going on with the ravens. I think Mormont's raven decided to eat his face because it was a way of stopping him from being stuck as something he didn't want to be. A wight. By eating Mormont, this may cause the spirit of Mormont to become part of the raven and not end up trapped in his body. (I think the wights have the former spirits trapped in the body) Perhaps this is also why on every page where a dead body is described, you have black ravens having a snack on them. I think it's a pre-emptive measure the CotF are doing to avoid all these corpses turning into wights in case the wall falls.

Finally - the white/black ravens haven't been examined enough in the story. My guess is the white ravens are controlled by the others and the Citadel is in league with the enemy because they maintain the status quo of no magic south of the wall. Maester Walgrave has been around these far more clever white ravens for years - and they keep the white and black separated because they fight, so I think that tends to show what "side" the Citadel is on in the story.

So the ravens are sort of reincarnating people as ravens in the story, though the end purpose may be a bit sinister. Perhaps Cannibalism was a trait that some men took on from the CotF as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the spirit in Mormont's raven is Bloodraven, and, as a former human and skinchanger into animals, he prefers not to snack on them. The black ravens, well perhaps CotF snacked on humans before they even became ravens. :D

about the lemon tree, winterfell had a greenhouse in which during winter vegetables and fruits could be grown year round, even in winter due to the pipes with steam. maybe Dany's future, not past is Winterfell rebuilt with a husband and her children?

That could be... however one detail of her HwtRD memory doesn't fit - the tree was outside her bedroom window and not in a greenhouse. The HotU vision of the place describes it with a lot of detail so I think we can reliably say the tree was not in a greenhouse.

Interesting theory about past lives.

Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen died in 232 AL. He had an infant, minor son at the time of his death. No one knows what happened to the son. Aerion also might of fathered some Bastards while in Lys.

The Great Council came together in 233 AL to decide the succession of the Iron Throne after Maekars death in 233 AL.

From Wiki:

"Maekar's oldest son, Daeron, called Daeron the Drunken, was a dissolute whore-monger who had died of a sexually transmitted pox, and left only a feeble-witted daughter as a possible heir. His second son, Aerion Brightflame, was a cruel madman who had died in 232 as a result of drinking wildfire in the mistaken belief it would turn him into a dragon. Aemon and Aegon had not expected to inherit the throne with two grown sons ahead of them. Aemon was already a chained maester serving at his brother Daeron's castle.

The council decided to bypass Daeron's daughter and Aerion's son and first quietly offered the throne to Aemon, who declined the invitation. They then chose Aegon, who was crowned as Aegon V, the fourth son of the fourth son of Daeron II, earning him the name Aegon the Unlikely."

Ah!!! Thank you for the fact check kind sir! Another :thumbsup: for you too!

Yes I have some dates wrong and will update the OP to reflect it. If Aerion died in 232 and not 242 then that's 10 years difference. Oops.

So, 99% sure (I'll leave the 1% to GRRM writing it) the baby is not Twyin. In a way I'm relieved this saves the thread from leading to that controversial subject.

HOWEVER, this may be related to the Tattered Prince, who the wiki states is considered "well past 60" and if he was born in 232 that would make him 68 at 300. That age fits perfectly to the infant passed over in the succession. He dies have "silver-grey" hair. Not just grey.

No wonder he has "sad eyes". One question outstanding though is if Aerion died in Lys or if he had already returned home to Westeros when he decided to have a party for two with wildfire as his guest. Though if the kid was conceived in Lys and stayed with his mother it doesn't really matter that much. Hmmm....

[Lady Arwen]

An excellent and nicely stated theory. Well done!

[Frey family reunion]

We're currently a choir of three that I know of. Pitifully tiny! You me and Lady Arya's Song I think.

That's ok, it will make it that much sweeter when we're proven right.