Creation Myths

[Morienthar]

We have at least 3 major religions and a quite a few minor ones,Why haven't we heard of a Creation Myth pertaining to even one of them?

They seem to be an important part of Religions maybe even one the Most Important parts.

[BondJamesBond]

Probably because GRRM didn't want to discredit any of the religions with an absurd creation myth. Just my guess. Because how much respect can you give Ned if he believes the world was created by a giant turtle pooping it out?

[callmedodge]

Probably because GRRM didn't want to discredit any of the religions with an absurd creation myth. Just my guess. Because how much respect can you give Ned if he believes the world was created by a giant turtle pooping it out?

Seems perfectly reasonable.

[blood of the dragoon]

Probably because GRRM didn't want to discredit any of the religions with an absurd creation myth. Just my guess. Because how much respect can you give Ned if he believes the world was created by a giant turtle pooping it out?

We all know in our hearts that the flying spaghetti monster created the world and all who dwell here.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[Yukle]

Probably because GRRM didn't want to discredit any of the religions with an absurd creation myth.

Creation myths are often nothing to do with how the universe began but more to do with how to treat the world that has been created. Indigenous Australians, for instance, have myths about the world being made by animal spirits. They have various explanations, such as a snake carving out rivers or a kookaburra releasing the sun as it laughs.

The point is not to be a scientific explanation to the Earth; the myths are meant to tie the importance of nature and the environment right into the culture. It's so ingrained that it has become taboo for their people to exploit their land. GRRM could easily have written something similar about, say, the North, and it'd make us see the Northerners as quite in tune with nature, thus revealing a lot about them.

GRRM probably didn't write any such tales because he just didn't feel it was necessary but I think that it's wrong to say that it would discredit his story. It'd probably add a lot of depth about the cultures he has made although he has done such a good job of that anyway.

[Tewks44]

Probably because GRRM didn't want to discredit any of the religions with an absurd creation myth. Just my guess. Because how much respect can you give Ned if he believes the world was created by a giant turtle pooping it out?

Yes it would be quite insulting to compare all the scientifically suggested and logically consistent creation myths of our world with absurd creation myths of GRRM's.

[BondJamesBond]

Yes it would be quite insulting to compare all the scientifically suggested and logically consistent creation myths of our world with the absurd one of GRRM's.

I can't tell your point.

[mindchap]

Maybe because we put more thought into their religions than GRRM does.

[Tewks44]

I can't tell your point.

All creation myths are absurd. If you get offended by absurd creation myths in a fictional story, you're a hypocrite. That's my general point, however I can see the merit in not wanting to offend any religions, so I understand what you're trying to say.

sorry, I'm a smartass. I can't help it, it's practically a reflex.

[BondJamesBond]

All creation myths are absurd. If you get offended by absurd creation myths in a fictional story, you're a hypocrite. That's my general point, however I can see the merit in not wanting to offend any religions, so I understand what you're trying to say.

sorry, I'm a smartass. I can't help it, it's practically a reflex.

Oh, I think you missed my point. I was saying that including a ridiculous creation story like those that actually exist would made the characters look stupid for believing that.

[Tewks44]

Oh, I think you missed my point. I was saying that including a ridiculous creation story like those that actually exist would made the characters look stupid for believing that.

Ah I see. I guess that's a good point, however it does say something about many people in today's society.

[callmedodge]

Oh, I think you missed my point. I was saying that including a ridiculous creation story like those that actually exist would made the characters look stupid for believing that.

Ned prays to trees. Mel prays to fire. This is a primitive world. Of course these people look stupid in their beliefs compared to how some people in our world (read: scientifically inclined people) view the world.

It wouldn`t make the characters any less believable though. And it`s not like creation myths play an active part in peoples lives anyway. They`re just ways of explaining things we can`t. (See the above post about indigenous Australians)

[Yukle]

All creation myths are absurd. If you get offended by absurd creation myths in a fictional story, you're a hypocrite. That's my general point, however I can see the merit in not wanting to offend any religions, so I understand what you're trying to say.

And also...

Ah I see. I guess that's a good point, however it does say something about many people in today's society.

Just to point out: no one knows how the universe was created. No one at all. Some people think they do, some people know they don't and the vast majority of people really don't care.

The only way to have known was to be there. This isn't a matter of religion, or a matter of science, or a matter of perspective or a matter of intelligence. No one knows at all. There are best-fit models used in science that even the most learned scientist will tell you is probably incorrect but the purpose of something like the big bang theory is not to actually explain how the universe was made. It's a best-fit model that was reverse-engineered to fit into what we already know. There's debates over it and we're likely to have adjustments or even sweeping changes to it as a common theory as discoveries continue to happen. For instance: there's debate as to whether the universe is growing at an accelerated rate or if time itself is simply slowing down. Each view would change the creation story of the big bang.

The purpose of this post is not to rubbish anyone's views, just the reverse. I think that it's unfair to rubbish a creation myth. In an earlier post I pointed out that creation myths don't usually serve the purpose of science and they were never meant to. They are meant as moral lessons in why we should care for the world. The creation myth of Christianity (there are two, actually, the one in seven days and the second one with Adam & Eve, and they are separate myths) includes that God gave humans the responsibility of caring for the land, watching over the fish of the seas, the birds of the skies. Some people read more into it, and sometimes, I think, go too far (such as "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!") but most Christians are not Creationists.

Think of something like the big bang theory as a creation myth that serves a different purpose: a way of explaining what we know about science so far. The more we've learnt about the world, the more the theory has been tinkered with. But very few scientists bother with debunking it entirely. Not because it's correct, but because they know that it isn't. They simply need something to fill in the blanks in lots of equations. It creates problems now and again but the benefit of having made up a theory is being able to adjust it accordingly. If it was a definitive explanation of creation then this would be impossible.

Being fascinated with creation is just part of being human. I don't think it's a sign of cleverness to be immediately dismissive of anyone's views on the matter because they explain a lot about their thoughts and views.

[Morienthar]

Religions need creation myths they are sort of the corner stone around which most of the others myths are built,which is why I found that the lack of how "Our God" made everything story a bit puzzling,GRRM has pretty decent narrators to tell these stories i.e Mels for the Red Faith,Meribald or High Sparrow for the 7,Old Nan for the Old Gods.

Edit:

It might be reasonable to assume the Old Gods don't have a written doctrine as they aren't particularly a expansionist religion but the Faith and the Red Faith seem to be expansionist.

[J. Stargaryen]

I have a Stark and Targaryen creation myth that involves Azor Ahai. I believe it also ties into R'hllor and the Great Other as well. I haven't quite fleshed that part out, though I am working on it. Anyway, here is the first part.

[Morienthar]

I have a Stark and Targaryen creation myth that involves Azor Ahai. I believe it also ties into R'hllor and the Great Other as well. I haven't quite fleshed that part out, though I am working on it. Anyway, here is the first part.

I've read that......I also told you it had too many holes.

The Astronomy part is good though.

[FuriousGeorge]

It is hard to come up with creation myths that don't seem silly on the one hand or just a variant of some other real creation myth on the other hand. Of course all creation myths seem ridiculous to some people, but the fact that they were actually believed in, or that they formed the basis of certain group's worldview even if they weren't genuinely believed, sort of sanctions them and gives them more cultural capital than they otherwise would have. It would be difficult for GRRM to come up with some and make them not seem frivolous.

[Tewks44]

And also...

Just to point out: no one knows how the universe was created. No one at all. Some people think they do, some people know they don't and the vast majority of people really don't care.

The only way to have known was to be there. This isn't a matter of religion, or a matter of science, or a matter of perspective or a matter of intelligence. No one knows at all. There are best-fit models used in science that even the most learned scientist will tell you is probably incorrect but the purpose of something like the big bang theory is not to actually explain how the universe was made. It's a best-fit model that was reverse-engineered to fit into what we already know. There's debates over it and we're likely to have adjustments or even sweeping changes to it as a common theory as discoveries continue to happen. For instance: there's debate as to whether the universe is growing at an accelerated rate or if time itself is simply slowing down. Each view would change the creation story of the big bang.

The purpose of this post is not to rubbish anyone's views, just the reverse. I think that it's unfair to rubbish a creation myth. In an earlier post I pointed out that creation myths don't usually serve the purpose of science and they were never meant to. They are meant as moral lessons in why we should care for the world. The creation myth of Christianity (there are two, actually, the one in seven days and the second one with Adam & Eve, and they are separate myths) includes that God gave humans the responsibility of caring for the land, watching over the fish of the seas, the birds of the skies. Some people read more into it, and sometimes, I think, go too far (such as "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!") but most Christians are not Creationists.

Think of something like the big bang theory as a creation myth that serves a different purpose: a way of explaining what we know about science so far. The more we've learnt about the world, the more the theory has been tinkered with. But very few scientists bother with debunking it entirely. Not because it's correct, but because they know that it isn't. They simply need something to fill in the blanks in lots of equations. It creates problems now and again but the benefit of having made up a theory is being able to adjust it accordingly. If it was a definitive explanation of creation then this would be impossible.

Being fascinated with creation is just part of being human. I don't think it's a sign of cleverness to be immediately dismissive of anyone's views on the matter because they explain a lot about their thoughts and views.

The Big Bang is a scientific theory developed by evidence that scientists will dismiss in favor of a new theory if new evidence is made available. Religious creation stories are stories not supported by evidence that people will generally not dismiss in favor of a new story even if evidence were to become available. I agree with what you're saying in terms of how creation stories can teach important lessons, but that is another respect in which they differ from the Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang Theory is a scientific theory, and therefore teaches no morals. I think it's a huge mistake to equate religious creation myths with a scientific theory.

[BondJamesBond]

The Big Bang is a scientific theory developed by evidence that scientists will dismiss in favor of a new theory if new evidence is made available. Religious creation stories are stories not supported by evidence that people will generally not dismiss in favor of a new story even if evidence were to become available. I agree with what you're saying in terms of how creation stories can teach important lessons, but that is another respect in which they differ from the Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang Theory is a scientific theory, and therefore teaches no morals. I think it's a huge mistake to equate religious creation myths with a scientific theory.

Not true. God created the world and the evidence is Jesus and the Bible. That's way more proven than some bang.

(Please read with sarcastic tone)

[Dragonmag170]

In relation to the real world: God and Science do not need to be exclusive of one another; they can actually exist quite perfectly together. Even if you are someone (like me) who believes that our current universe was created by the big bang, we are still faced with the scientific fact that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore, at the time of the big bang (as I understand it) all of the matter and energy of the universe was, for some reason, concentrated into one very (cosmically) small point and then violently began to expand. But the question still remains: How did the matter/energy that cannot be created, erm, get created? At some point, no matter what you believe, whether you are a hard-core scientist or a hard-core religious person, I think we all must agree that at some point something CREATED something. And there is the god we all fight about. Or, at least, that is what I think. I myself am a Chemistry major.

In GRRM's world: I think he hasn't given us a creation myth because he thinks that it really doesnt matter. What I think is interesting about what GRRM has given us is that the Children of the Forest were the first people in Westeros, then the First Men came, then the Andals. This is, in a way, a creation story. I think that, really, part of the mystery of the world that has been created by this series is pondering what put the world together, why the others/dragons/humans/COtF/everything else exists, and what the true nature of the gods is. And I think Martin hasnt told us because it is supposed to remain as mysterious to us as it is to the characters who we are seeing this would through.