Is Valyria inspiration from Mordor?

[Corvinus85]

From Tolkien's it would be closer to Numenor.

Atlantis may also be another.

The biblical cities Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Roman cities Pompeii and Herculanae

[Winterz]

You mean one of the Ainur and that is not true. Ecthelion beat Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs, Glorfindel beat a Balrog and Luthien put Morgoth's entire host: dragons, balrogs, orcs and Morgoth himself to sleep.

Sauron was no where near the most powerful Maia and Isildur did not get lucky. Gilg-galad and Elendil fought Sauron in a duel to death. All three competitors died. Sauron due to tying his soul to the ring was going to reform his at some point. Isildur chopped off the ring and that ended Sauron's chances of revival. Without the ring, he would have died there and then.

Ainur, meh misspelled. You have to consider that all those while killing Balrogs it also meant their death. Luthien? uh-uh? It was the Host of Valinor who defeated the Dark powers. Sauron died? You do understand that this is not correct at all? Sauron was defeated but he did not die, thanks to the ring yes but lets not forget that Sauron was badass way before there even was a ring. It is said that Sauron was one of the most powerful of Morgoth's servants, if not the most, so mind elaborating why him being one of the most powerful Maia is incorrect? Can you tell me the one who is then?

Remember that the Wizards were so vulnerable because they were sent to Middle-earth with the bodies of the Children of Iluvatar (and most of their weaknesses too).

[mrunderhill]

Are we sure it was the same Glorfindel than killed the Balrog??

Yes Tolkien wrote a long essay on it. Glorfindel is back and more powerful than ever. Apart from Gandalf the White he was probably the most powerful good guy.

and as for Sauron this is a direct comment of his form from Tolkein during the time of LOTR

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."

Sauron regained his physical form in Dol Guldur which was a couple of centuries before the events of LOTR if I'm not mistaken.

No it was closer to a thousand years than a couple of centuries, but he did not have all of his power back yet and had to build up his forces in the East.

Sauron is nowhere near the strongest of the Maiar the strongest are said to be the one who became the Sun...I forget her name though.

There are a few Maiar definitely stronger than him most notably Eonwe, but as you said Arien, Osse and possibly Tilion. I would say that Melian was his equal in power too.

[Morienthar]

Remember that the Wizards were so vulnerable because they were sent to Middle-earth with the bodies of the Children of Iluvatar (and most of their weaknesses too).

Yes but Sauron lost his shape shifting powers after facing Luthein.

The Last time he does this is when he becomes a vampire to fly away from them to fight Huan as a Werewolf.

[Fauch]

Tolkien changed his opinion of Glorfindel a few times, that's why it's hard to say. The consensus among fans (and his latest version of the story) is that Glorfindel is the elf who killed a Balrog during the siege of Gondolin though.

As I said "strength" for Maiar is very subjective, they are strong in wholly different areas. For example, Tulkas, the least and the last of the Ainur, is the most powerful Fighter, and is able to defeat Melkor with his fists (Melkor being the most powerful being in Arda)

Can't recall that (Arien) the Maia who is the sun is mentioned as explicitly powerful though.

Elrond probably would have fought, it's just that there was little point, as there was no hope of defeating Sauron through militaric means anyway. Gandalf is a Maia himself and wouldn't go to the Halls of Mandos.

[Morienthar]

Can't recall that (Arien) the Maia who is the sun is mentioned as explicitly powerful though.

I remember reading it in one of his letters I'll get back to you on the letter number...

But she is the only one to have scared Melko shitless in Silmarillion.

Edit...

It's letter 148 one of the less famous letters.

In this he talks about Melko's fears.

He says..

"Arien is to be considered the only Maiar,Melkor was ever afraid of"

But I'll admit this is more than likely because she's the only Fire Maiar who defied Melko.

[Winterz]

There are a few Maiar definitely stronger than him most notably Eonwe, but as you said Arien, Osse and possibly Tilion. I would say that Melian was his equal in power too.

Definitely? Really? I say it's utter speculation. Sauron is referred to as the most powerful of Morgoth's servants, and the latter employed several of them. It's made clear that though Eonwe was the most skilled at arms, he is clearly referred to as not the most powerful. And the rest you mentioned, well, there's just no clue to back your statements.

And you sure as hell shouldn't disregard Sauron's power for being a servant of Aule, the smith-like Valar because, if I remember correctly, so was Saruman, the most powerful of the Istar.

As for Glorfindel being a reincarnation, again not much of a confirmation. Tolkien did say he thought it so but never got a chance to write it, so as far as we know through canocity, the Glorfindels may be different individuals.

[mrunderhill]

Ainur, meh misspelled. You have to consider that all those while killing Balrogs it also meant their death. Luthien? uh-uh? It was the Host of Valinor who defeated the Dark powers. Sauron died? You do understand that this is not correct at all? Sauron was defeated but he did not die, thanks to the ring yes but lets not forget that Sauron was badass way before there even was a ring. It is said that Sauron was one of the most powerful of Morgoth's servants, if not the most, so mind elaborating why him being one of the most powerful Maia is incorrect? Can you tell me the one who is then?

They may have died, but they killed the Balrog as well. As for Luthien I will provide you the quote of what she did and then you can question her power.

This is Luthien against the someone more physically powerful than Sauron.

But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Luthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep saying; 'O woe begotten spirit, fall now into a dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though

lightning had smitten him.

The suddenly she eluded his sight(Morgoth that is), and out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce, and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking for her. All his court were cast down in slumber, and all the fires faded and were quenched, but the Silmarils in Morgoth's head blazed forth suddenly with a radiance of white flame, and the burden of that crown and of jewels bowed his head, as though the world was set upon it, laden with a weight of care, of fear and of desire, that even the will of Morgoth could not support. ......Suddenly he fell, as a hill sliding in an avalanche, and hurled like thunder from his throne lay prone upon the floors of hell.

Sauron was the most powerful of Morgoth's servants, but he still took his share of beatings. Many times he was lucky to escape with his life. The ring was like bound his soul to it, but without that he would have died there and then. The Numenoreans came close to killing him before this as well. Huan too had Sauron at his mercy, but Luthien spared him.

Remember that the Wizards were so vulnerable because they were sent to Middle-earth with the bodies of the Children of Iluvatar (and most of their weaknesses too).

This is true, but to have greater control of the material world you have to take physical form and the more power you exert controlling the physical world the more you become bound to your body. All evil Maiar became bound to their body, the Istari as said were restricted, but even Melian seemed to be bound by her body in the end.

[mrunderhill]

Definitely? Really? I say it's utter speculation. Sauron is referred to as the most powerful of Morgoth's servants, and the latter employed several of them. It's made clear that though Eonwe was the most skilled at arms, he is clearly referred to as not the most powerful. And the rest you mentioned, well, there's just no clue to back your statements.

Not speculation except with Osse. Eonwe is stated to be the most powerful Maiar in feats of arms and is the one, who takes down Morgoth in the War of Wrath. Arien is said to be stronger than any of Morgoth's servants.

And you sure as hell shouldn't disregard Sauron's power for being a servant of Aule, the smith-like Valar because, if I remember correctly, so was Saruman, the most powerful of the Istar.

Saruman was the most powerful of the Istari originally until Eru gave Gandalf a power up.

As for Glorfindel being a reincarnation, again not much of a confirmation. Tolkien did say he thought it so but never got a chance to write it, so as far as we know through canocity, the Glorfindels may be different individuals.

Yes he did. He wrote an essay explaining about Glorfindel, his reincarnation how he becames friends with Gandalf and was almost his equal to Gandalf in Maiar form. Gandalf returned to Middle Earth to help in the war against Sauron.

[Fauch]

Again, power is relative. Gandalf is most certainly the most wise of the Istari (he is Olorin in Valinor, one of the Maias of...Nienna I think).

Saruman is, as you say, more like Sauron in his powers.

Melians powers are completely different again. Her girdle is able to shut out Melko from Doriath, but she probably had little skill at arms as well.

Sauron is a Maia, killing is relative. Maia are Ainur, Iluvatars own thoughts. You can "kill" their body, but their fear (spirit, soul) is immortal. Even after Sauron falls in RoTK he is merely reduced to a "ghost", never able to take shape or form again, but he is not "extinguished"

[mrunderhill]

Again, power is relative. Gandalf is most certainly the most wise of the Istari (he is Olorin in Valinor, one of the Maias of...Nienna I think).

Saruman is, as you say, more like Sauron in his powers.

Melians powers are completely different again. Her girdle is able to shut out Melko from Doriath, but probably had little skill at arms as well.

Power is not relative, because Tolkien tells us often enough, who is the most powerful. However, combat power and general magical power are not the same. Melkor is by far the strongest of the Ainur, but Tulkas can beat him in combat situation.

Sauron is a Maia, killing is relative. Maia are Ainur, Iluvatars own thoughts. You can "kill" their body, but their fear (spirit, soul) is immortal. Even after Sauron falls RoTK he is merely reduced to a "ghost", never able to take shape or form again, but he is not "extuingished"

Everyone's spirit is immortal; Maiar, Elf or Man. Except for men leave the universe at death.

[Morienthar]

Again, power is relative. Gandalf is most certainly the most wise of the Istari (he is Olorin in Valinor, one of the Maias of...Nienna I think).

Saruman is, as you say, more like Sauron in his powers.

Melians powers are completely different again. Her girdle is able to shut out Melko from Doriath, but she probably had little skill at arms as well.

Sauron is a Maia, killing is relative. Maia are Ainur, Iluvatars own thoughts. You can "kill" their body, but their fear (spirit, soul) is immortal. Even after Sauron falls in RoTK he is merely reduced to a "ghost", never able to take shape or form again, but he is not "extinguished"

Gandalf was one of Manwe's people.

[Fauch]

Power is not relative, because Tolkien tells us often enough, who is the most powerful. However, combat power and general magical power are not the same. Melkor is by far the strongest of the Ainur, but Tulkas can beat him in combat situation.

Everyone's spirit is immortal; Maiar, Elf or Man. Except for men leave the universe at death.

Well, you claimed earlier in this thread that Sauron wouldn't survive an encounter with Gandalf (the white). What do you base this on? In Tolkiens essay "of the Istari" it is stated that Olorin was afraid to go to Middle Earth because he thought he lacked the strength to face Sauron.

[Fauch]

Gandalf was one of Manwe's people.

True, thanks for the correction, I looked it up. He merely lived "under the tutelage of Nienna", but is one of the Maia of Manwe.

[Morienthar]

Everyone's spirit is immortal; Maiar, Elf or Man. Except for men leave the universe at death.

I wanted to know what happened to Dwarves Christopher had apparently said if he found notes on this he will reveal it,I guess we'll never really find out.

[mrunderhill]

Well, you claimed earlier in this thread that Sauron wouldn't survive an encounter with Gandalf (the white). What do you base this on? In Tolkiens essay "of the Istari" it is stated that Olorin was afraid to go to Middle Earth because he thought he lacked the strength to face Sauron.

]

I didn't just say Gandalf the White. I said Gandalf the white and other extremely powerful elves. One on one we hear Gandalf himself admit Sauron is stronger.

[Fauch]

And again I say this is complete speculation. For all we know Galadriel hasn't touched a weapon in all her life. The elves you mentioned are certainly not nearly as strong in arms as Gil-Galad and Elendil were.

The power of the elves is nearly ending at the end of the third age. This is a recurring theme in all of Tolkiens works, the powers of all the good guys are decaying constantly.

In a battle of "wizardry", aka something which happened at Tol Ghauroth between Sauron and Finrod Felagund, Sauron came clearly out ahead.

Gandalf after his power up, as you called it, is maybe on the level of Saruman in might, yet Saruman isn't able to stand up to Sauron either.

[mrunderhill]

And again I say this is complete speculation. For all we know Galadriel hasn't touched a weapon in all her life. The elves you mentioned are certainly not nearly as strong in arms as Gil-Galad and Elendil were.

No we are told this by Tolkien. There is no speculation. Galadriel has fought before against the Feanor and his group and she was ferocious.

The power of the elves is nearly ending at the end of the third age. This is a recurring theme in all of Tolkiens works, the powers of all the good guys are decaying constantly.

Yes, because they are declining and leaving Middle Earth. Galadriel, Elrond and Glorfindel are as powerful as elves get.

In a battle of "wizardry", aka something which happened at Tol Ghauroth between Sauron and Finrod Felagund, Sauron came clearly out ahead.

Gandalf after his power up, as you called it, is maybe on the level of Saruman in might, yet Saruman isn't able to stand up to Sauron either.

Gandalf is stronger that Saruman and alongside other power elves no real chance he is going to lose. Sauron already lost to just Gil-galad and Elendil when he had the ring. It's ridiculous to think without it he can stand against Gandalf, Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel.

[Fauch]

No we are told this by Tolkien. There is no speculation. Galadriel has fought before against the Feanor and his group and she was ferocious.

Yes, because they are declining and leaving Middle Earth. Galadriel, Elrond and Glorfindel are as powerful as elves get.

Gandalf is stronger that Saruman and alongside other power elves no real chance he is going to lose. Sauron already lost to just Gil-galad and Elendil when he had the ring. It's ridiculous to think without it he can stand against Gandalf, Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel.

Uhm..wrong. Galadriel never fights against Feanor and sons, in fact, Galadriel never fights, not in LotR nor the Silmarillion. Her power is of a different kind, just like Melians. Elrond is a half-elf, Galadriel has power, yet not in arms, and Glorfindel might be strong, very strong, but in LotR books where basically heritage/ancestry determines how "strong" you are, there is no way you can compare him to Gil-Galad, son of Fingon.

As for Gandalf, where did you find evidence in the books that he is "stronger" than Saruman?

The ring doesn't even necessarily increase Saurons strength in a duel.

They are in no way as powerful as elves get, not nearly. They are not nearly as strong, nor as wise as the elves from the first age. If you want, I'll get my books and find quotes.

Also, please elaborate on what exactly "power elves" are. This sounds like something straight out of Dragonball Z, not Lord of the Rings :cool4:

[moophasa]

I tend to avoid comparing ASOIAF to Tolkien, mostly because GRRM has gone to such lengths to subvert Tolkien's style of fantasy. The Valyrians were not absolute evil any more than the Volantenes are. Remember we have unreliable narrators, and it's not entirely clear what role gods have in this world - quite the opposite to Tolkien, where the history of his world is meant to be taken as read.