Lady Howell Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Okay, okay, put aside the R+L=J theory for a moment! We are not arguing this for the thousandth time, people.Okay, so here's the topic: if GRRM decides to screw over the fandom and Jon's mom really is Ashara and Ned is his father, here's a question I haven't seen asked: what of Ashara's stillborn daughter?A lie to cover up the fact she bore a highborn married man's bastard? Or the truth?What if--IF--Jon had a twin sister who was stillborn or died shortly after birth? Plausible or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 we discussed this before her name is Darkstar on a more serious note no i think the still born daughter was the cover up for jon that's if we take what you give us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fightbringer Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 unless this sister is still alive and has a part to play, it would add very little to the plot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Howell Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 we discussed this before her name is Darkstar on a more serious note no i think the still born daughter was the cover up for jon that's if we take what you give us Wow, just looked that up after I saw this. Never thought of that theory really. But doesn't it kind of over complicate things a little. I was think on a much simpler level where GRRM decides to mess with us and reveal, hey Lyanna and Rheagar aren't Jon's parents and it has been Ashara and Ned all along. It seems his style to take over half the fandom's romantized view that Rheagar and Lyanna loved each other and ran away together, though it ended in tragedy, and Jon is a secret prince, and then destroy it by revealing the story many people in Westeros have told and believe about Ned and Ashara is true. So if that senario comes true (I pray not) I wonder about the story about Ashara killing her self because her daughter was still born. That could still be true, even if Jon is her son in my mind.Many factors add up to suicide. Arthur'a death is a big one. Ned rejecting her for honor's sake could be another. The death of a possible daughter could be a really really big one that pushed her over the edge though. Combine all that with maybe some post-partum depression, and considering the times, it is a recipe for tragedy.If N+A=J, I theorized that Ashara was slowly pushed to the edge. First, her love kills her brother. Big blow. Then her love rejects her because he is now married and has another son back home. Another big blow. Finally, she give birth to twins-Jon and another child-but one is stillborn, and combine that with post-partum depression. Ashara throws her self to her death, leaving an orphan that Ned, as his father is honor bound to raise.But is any of that plausible to other people and not just me? My question isn't if Jon has siblings or even his origins. It's if one specific parentage pans out as the real deal for Jon, in this case, N+A=J, does that mean the story about the still born daughter was true? Or a hoax? Which seems more likely to others I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 IF GRRM were to discard all the carefully planted hints and clues and provide an alternative explanation for them, the stillborn daughter would most probably be just a cover-up for Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daario's man Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Jon's still born sister will add very little to the plot. His live ones (I know they're his cousins really)are who we should be concerned with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hawk Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I think GRRM is trying to fuck our minds with Jon's parents and it is going to lead either being pissed off R+L=J fans or pissed off N+?=J fans either be prepared to be mindfucked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I think GRRM is trying to fuck our minds with Jon's parents and it is going to lead either being pissed off R+L=J fans or pissed off N+?=J fans either be prepared to be mindfuckedYes, because GRRM will disregard very little hint he's written to support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hawk Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Yes, because GRRM will disregard very little hint he's written to support it. I said maybe either way winter is coming and we going to get mindfucked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I said maybe either way winter is coming and we going to get mindfuckedThe only people who are going to get mindf*cked are the people who don't know about the R+L=J theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Howell Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 I think GRRM is trying to fuck our minds with Jon's parents and it is going to lead either being pissed off R+L=J fans or pissed off N+?=J fans either be prepared to be mindfuckedJust yes.Truthfully, I think it will be kind of surprising, whatever explanation GRRM gives. Maybe it will be N+A=J or the very popular L+R=J or maybe something surprising. All I know is GRRM will not give a predictable explanation for Jon's origins. He will take our predictions and theories and totally mind fuck us by adding a twist or subversion to it we never expected (or wanted to think possible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Jon has 2 sisters named Arya & Sansa. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Howell Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 The only people who are going to get mindf*cked are the people who don't know about the R+L=J theory.That's an arrogant statement. No one but the author knows what will happen. All we can do is speculate. Nothing is certain in the world of ASOIAF. Besides, why isn't it possible that GRRM planted all the little 'hints' about R+L=J as red herrings to make us think the Ashara Dayne rumours and Wylla were red herrings, thus confusing us poor readers? At the moment, they're all just theories and are all just as unproven as the rest. Everyone seems so sure of R+L=J, as if its already Canon. Knowing GRRM, that's not a good sign for any true believers of this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Uh oh, I feel a speech about the definition of a 'red herring' coming again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 That's an arrogant statement. No one but the author knows what will happen. All we can do is speculate. Nothing is certain in the world of ASOIAF.Besides, why isn't it possible that GRRM planted all the little 'hints' about R+L=J as red herrings to make us think the Ashara Dayne rumours and Wylla were red herrings, thus confusing us poor readers? At the moment, they're all just theories and are all just as unproven as the rest.Everyone seems so sure of R+L=J, as if its already Canon. Knowing GRRM, that's not a good sign for any true believers of this theory.Because that's not how good writing works. If you want to make a great reveal, you have to use the device called foreshadowing, or else you will end up writing a deus ex machina. You familiar with the Mass Effect games? The authors changed the objective throughout the series, which created big plotholes on the one hand, and a deus ex machina totally unrelated to the previously established events on the other. If GRRM discards R+L, then he will end up with exactly that. The only way to avoid this trap would be possible if there was another, even more hidden series of clues, which would be used as a basis for N+? - however, these clues are simply not there. Even with two more books still to go, the clues for the rivalling theories would have had to be there by now. At this state, claiming that all are just unproven theories is empty rhetorics, as the other theories simply do not have the amount of support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Howell Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Uh oh, I feel a speech about the definition of a 'red herring' coming again...The guy above is right. GRRM would have to really explain all the R+L=J foreshadowing if he does reveal that it isn't true and Jon is the product of N+?=J. But there are two or more books left, so who knows. Bomb shells could be dropped, dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesnow Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Him having a "sister" would do nothing to serve the plot o____o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Uh oh, I feel a speech about the definition of a 'red herring' coming again...Yep. A red herring is something that's said outright. RLJ is not said outright, we have tiny hints and clues that lead us to that conclusion. And when I say "us", I mean people that come to online forums everyday to discuss every single aspect of these novels. Casual readers (and, make no mistake, those are the majority) usually do not figure this out. I assure you that most of them will be stunned when RLJ is revealed. RLJ is no red herring: Ashara, Wylla and the fisherman's daughter are the red herrings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Him having a "sister" would do nothing to serve the plot o____oIf you don't yield to the Dark Side R'hllor, maybe your sister will" :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Howell Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Okay, okay, let's put the debate about R+L=J vs N+?=J aside. I started this forum to discuss if N+A=J were to be true, what about the mention of a stillborn daughter. All I wanted was to hear what people thought.Does this mean Jon had a twin that died?Was it a ploy? If so, why?Why say Ashara had a stillborn daughter and was so distraught she killed herself if she in fact had a son by Ned Stark that?That was what I hoped would be discussed, not something that has been argued a thousand times over, like R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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