Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.

[avernite]

Jon is in about the best possible place to be stabbed - if only he could get a blood transfusion. As Aemon said, the cold preserves, and the same is true for wounded people; but who has actual mundane healing capabilities sufficient to heal someone suffering from several stabs and severe blood loss?

Maybe if Jon had been stabbed like this in the snow outside the Citadel of Oldtown, I'd believe he could be saved without magic. But noone at the Wall has good knowledge of healing. Val and Melisandre might have some, and some of the NW undoubtedly know something about binding wounds... but not enough to fix the blood loss alone.

So yeah, any non-magical healing of Jon, even after a long coma (as with Bran) seems unlikely.

[bemused]

Morna , the Warrior Witch ( sworn to Jon )..many witches are healers. Val wants to find a midwife for Dalla , and tells Jon to ask a woods witch about greyscale ( not a healer , but maybe good at administering TLC ).. What would a warrior witch ( not just a spearwife) have expertise with , if not wounds.? ..The daughter of a wise woman healed Mance after severe blood loss ( porridge and potions ).. We don't know the extent of Jon's blood loss ( cold weather , thick clothes maybe boiled leather..? )...We do know the first cut was very shallow..

He may not be so badly off. ;)

ETA: She wears a weirwood mask ...and does the porridge fed to Mance make you think of weirwood paste..???

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Morna , the Warrior Witch ( sworn to Jon )..many witches are healers. Val wants to find a midwife for Dalla , and tells Jon to ask a woods witch about greyscale ( not a healer , but maybe good at administering TLC ).. What would a warrior witch ( not just a spearwife) have expertise with , if not wounds.? ..The daughter of a wise woman healed Mance after severe blood loss ( porridge and potions ).. We don't know the extent of Jon's blood loss ( cold weather , thick clothes maybe boiled leather..? )...We do know the first cut was very shallow..

He may not be so badly off. ;)

ETA: She wears a weirwood mask ...and does the porridge fed to Mance make you think of weirwood paste..???

This is a very interesting line of thought... :eek:

[StoneToilet]

Agreed, bemused nailed it, jon will be healed by a combination of folk science and magic, aided by favorable circumstances (the cold, the layers, as stated, also the hackish nature of the attack, shallow blows and lots of jons friends around)

Its kind of like how wildfire is alchemy infused with magic, the woods witches must similarly use healing arts learned and passed down, with a dose of magic for extra oomph. As we saw with wildfire, the magic component is likely to be particularly effective, but its still a far cry from a magical resuscitation that will either leave jon scorched all over his body or a mindless walking corpse.

This is totally in keeping with the ambiguous nature of the supernatural in this series

[tormund's beard]

he is going to have a BR-powered (or Bran-powered?) coma like bran did but instead of three eyed crow stuff is going to be wolf and weirwood stuff.

[Harlan]

Does anyone else think it's possible he didn't feel the fourth knife because he entered the same beserker rage state we saw him in when he was fighting in the yard. He blacked out during that fight too, and if there was ever a time for Jon to be a complete bad ass, it's when his trying to be assassinated.

It even fits the "now a man now a wolf now a man" thing. He was a man attempting to lead, He was attacked and embraced his inner beast, then when the fighting is over, he will be a man again. Note that the people around him are skulls, as in dead.

[tormund's beard]

dude that's cool so jon wargs ghost but ghost can also warg jon (a.k.a go berserker) awesome!!!

[StoneToilet]

Wow i had not considered that, don't think I've read anyone suggesting it. Im kind i blown away. It would totally explain that part of mels vision.

The thought is so awesome, all these people who think jon is going to warg ghost to survive, and its actually the other way around! It explains the skulls all around him, it even explains why he suddenly was having trouble getting his sword out - he was losing control of his body

Is the idea of jons berserker state resulting from ghost warging him a theory thats out there? If so i havent seen it, hadnt considered it, nor had i considered the possibility of jon not feeling the fourth knife because he was going berserk. Obviously got that scene with iron emmet for a reason. What a perfect time for that advantage to come into play. I'm going to have to do some rereading, but i already feel like this is exactly what happened.

Harlan, right now my love for you is like a truck

Kick ass

One more thought: considering varamyrs story of dying and searching for a place to stash his consciousness before settling on his wolf, its entirely possible that robb found his way to ghost. Don't know how the timing lines up with the scene in the yard and the red wedding, but its possible if jons berserking is ghost jumping into him, ghosts seemingly out of nowhere ability to do this could come from prompting by robbs consciousness.

[Harlan]

Wow i had not considered that, don't think I've read anyone suggesting it. Im kind i blown away. It would totally explain that part of mels vision.

The thought is so awesome, all these people who think jon is going to warg ghost to survive, and its actually the other way around! It explains the skulls all around him, it even explains why he suddenly was having trouble getting his sword out - he was losing control of his body

Is the idea of jons berserker state resulting from ghost warging him a theory thats out there? If so i havent seen it, hadnt considered it, nor had i considered the possibility of jon not feeling the fourth knife because he was going berserk. Obviously got that scene with iron emmet for a reason. What a perfect time for that advantage to come into play. I'm going to have to do some rereading, but i already feel like this is exactly what happened.

Harlan, right now my love for you is like a truck

Kick ass

One more thought: considering varamyrs story of dying and searching for a place to stash his consciousness before settling on his wolf, its entirely possible that robb found his way to ghost. Don't know how the timing lines up with the scene in the yard and the red wedding, but its possible if jons berserking is ghost jumping into him, ghosts seemingly out of nowhere ability to do this could come from prompting by robbs consciousness.

I don't think of it as ghost warging jon so much as the mind of the wolf bleeding into the mind of the human. I believe that all skinchangers are slowly working their way toward a complete merging of the human mind with the mind of the animal. Eventually they would cease to be to different people and simply become one mind in two bodies.

Jon isn't getting warged by ghost, he just is ghost, in addition to being Jon. While ghost is Jon in addition to being ghost. That's just the way I imagine skinchanging works.

Idk though, maybe my explanation of skin changing just over complicates things

[alienarea]

Or he didn't feel the forth knife only the cold because the wall just collapsed on top of him due to the nightwatch no longer being true?

And the black armor of ice from his dream is his frozen blood.

[Harlan]

Or he didn't feel the forth knife only the cold because the wall just collapsed on top of him due to the nightwatch no longer being true?

And the black armor of ice from his dream is his frozen blood.

I guess that's possible, but why would the watches current situation cause the wall to collapse. Jon is not the first LC that brothers have tried or succeeded in assassinating. What is so bad about the watch now that the wall would collapse?

[alienarea]

I guess that's possible, but why would the watches current situation cause the wall to collapse. Jon is not the first LC that brothers have tried or succeeded in assassinating. What is so bad about the watch now that the wall would collapse?

First the nightwatch killed their respected lord commander, Jeor Mormont, and lost most of its senior members at the Fist of the First Men (1st betraysl). Then the election was rigged for Jon Snow to become the new lord commander, and the new lord commandet made a deal with the wildlings, let them pass the wall and join the watch (2nd and 3rd betrayal).

[Harlan]

First the nightwatch killed their respected lord commander, Jeor Mormont, and lost most of its senior members at the Fist of the First Men (1st betraysl). Then the election was rigged for Jon Snow to become the new lord commander, and the new lord commandet made a deal with the wildlings, let them pass the wall and join the watch (2nd and 3rd betrayal).

I take it you believe the wall plays baseball (3 strikes your out). I still don't buy it, if the wall had fallen on him, he wouldn't feel the cold, he'd feel nothing. No one within a few hundred feet of the wall could've survived. And why on earth would the walls original builders tie the strength of the wall to the honor of the men? Surely this would have been a bad idea?

Why is jon's decision to let wildlings through the wall a betrayal? Wildlings are men and it's the nights watches job to protect the realms of men.

[StoneToilet]

To be fair, i think the rule of three is pretty well established in the mythological/folk lore underpinnings of fantasy, and if anything baseball's format is just part of that tradition. Though i don't agree with alienareas take.

Now, as to your take on skinchanging, I'm wondering if you see this as a process that takes a lifetime, and in death the minds/souls are merged, or as a process that reaches completion during life? The implications of the answer for jons situation are obvious, and i for one don't believe he has died or will actually die (from the stabbings, not from something else later on), but all the depictions we have of skinchanging make it look like a one way street. I don't think we can say for sure that V6skins or the stark childrens behavior/moods DON'T reflect the moods of their animals, but the only explicit examples we have are the other way around, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

If he was stabbed in the gut, which he was, that is almost certainly fatal barring some divine intervention. Add to that he was stabbed in the back, cut in the throat, and presumably stabbed a fourth time as well. That first one from Marsh would've been enough to do him in.

When Arya stabbed the Polliver's squire at the Crossroads Inn, the Hound was right when he said there's little that can be done for a stab wound in the gut. Slow, painful, feverish death is all but certain.

The hound "died" from largely superficial wounds to his leg... death is never far away in Westeros.

Look at Victarion, he cut his hand and would've died from it if not for Red Rollo's intervention.

How many hundreds of times have we seen the following sequence play out since AGoT : flesh wound, poorly treated, infected, septisemia, death.

[Queen Elsa]

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

Not 100% true. Wights can still be killed, same with UnBeric, (UnCat, and UnGregor of course).

We obviously wont know if he really died or not for at least a year or more, but if he did it is also possible that Mel could give him the kiss of fire and breathe life back into Jon just as Thoros did for Beric. I really dont believe that Mel possesses this power like Thoros does but she stayed at the wall for a reason. Maybe she stayed just because that is where the Others are, but maybe not.

If Mel will revive Jon, Jon once awake will go "Wtf? Now I'm indebted to this Red Priestess and her god?"

[Harlan]

If he was stabbed in the gut, which he was, that is almost certainly fatal barring some divine intervention. Add to that he was stabbed in the back, cut in the throat, and presumably stabbed a fourth time as well. That first one from Marsh would've been enough to do him in.

When Arya stabbed the Polliver's squire at the Crossroads Inn, the Hound was right when he said there's little that can be done for a stab wound in the gut. Slow, painful, feverish death is all but certain.

The hound "died" from largely superficial wounds to his leg... death is never far away in Westeros.

Look at Victarion, he cut his hand and would've died from it if not for Red Rollo's intervention.

How many hundreds of times have we seen the following sequence play out since AGoT : flesh wound, poorly treated, infected, septisemia, death.

Depending on the size of the blade and the amount of clothes jon was wearing, the stab in the gut may have been largely superficial or fatal. We can't say for certain how deadly the wounds jon has taken are without knowing more about the weapons jon was attacked with and the fur jon was wearing. The same is true for jons stab in the back and the potential fourth blade.

We simply do not know enough about jon's attack to say whether jon is dead/dying, or wounded.

[The Red Melli]

1-Melisandre knows what's coming for Jon, she wants to warn him but he doesnt listen.

2-She mentions the absence of ghost right as Jon was heading to the hall, Jon tells her where he has put ghost and why and runs away

3- She leaves the hall before Jon, and does not seem interested to talk to him unlike her usual self. This might mean she might have the sensed the danger and was trying to get out of the scene before shit hit the wall.

She might be heading to where ghost is, to release him in time so he can save Jon.

[Ludd]

Regarding the wounds

The first was supposedly just a flesh wound and while it bled probably NOT severe

The second is serious and could lead to death by infection

The third very much depends on the location of the would

The fourth may or may not have occurred

However there are a number of pointers towards Jon surviving

1. The ice and snow and cold will slow bleeding substantially so gives him time to get help

2. The cold will also lowere the risk of infection - blades in the cold weather will not have bacteria so unless the gut is cut there is not necessarily infection. This would NOT be the case in warmer climates

3. The wildings have their own skilled healers (the maesters have not a monopoly) - Has anyone mentioned honey in the stores - because an application of honey to the bowel wound quickly could save the day - Not to mention mouldy bread and willow bark which can fight infection and fever (penicillin and asprin)

4. I think Jon was drugged in someway before the attack (or perhaps with the first cut) because he could NOT draw long claw. If he was drugged then again blood flow is greatly reduced

5. I think that the cold Jon feels is the white walkers arriving - Not sure what that does to injuries

Now I feel sure that ghost will be released and protect Jon from other attackers (and white walkers)

Finally I am NOT sure that we know Jon's real plan re the "Letter". I think he was up to something with Torman. Not sure what.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Depending on the size of the blade and the amount of clothes jon was wearing, the stab in the gut may have been largely superficial or fatal. We can't say for certain how deadly the wounds jon has taken are without knowing more about the weapons jon was attacked with and the fur jon was wearing. The same is true for jons stab in the back and the potential fourth blade.

We simply do not know enough about jon's attack to say whether jon is dead/dying, or wounded.

Bowen Marsh drove his dagger into Jon's gut.... sufficiently deep that Jon had to pull it out. Stabbed similarly from behind, and another elsewhere. Fatal. When last we saw Jon, he was collapsing, with multiple stab wounds, and surrounded by people who meant to kill him... I bring up infection to counter any claims that the wounds themselves that we have seen were not instantly fatal... but I don't think infection will matter because he's going to be killed by Marsh & Co. who are armed and surrounding him.

I could be wrong of course... someone could come stop Marsh & Co before they deliver the death blow... and Jon may be dying instead of dead.

What I am sure of is that Melisandre will have a role to play in Jon's survival. She will either give him the last kiss thing, OR she will do a Moqorro and 'heal' Jon... though I'm not sure how that works with wounds to one's torso.