The only proof she's not mad

[yomi]

I'm sorry, the argument is now that she could have gotten out of the blazing inferno if she really started burning? The mad act isn't mad if you pull back once you realize the mad act could kill you? She had conviction that she could do something no one had ever done. She is Aerion Brightflame except she succeeded. As everyone that witnessed it agreed, it was madness and/or suicide that managed to work for reasons Daenerys doesn't know.

Her theory might be crazy, granted. But she can test this theory without much danger, and there is great profit in this theory should it turn out to be right. So testing this crazy theory is not crazy.

Men try doing things no man did before quiet often, and if they succeed, we call it progress.

No raping women after war, but this one isn't followed in Westeros besides from Stannis who castrates rapists.

Not on topic, but Theon also punished his men who raped in Winterfell.

[Dany Girl]

Targs are known for prophetic dreams just as green seers are. There's nothing crazy about trying to abolish slavery or mass rape of women after war. It's compassion that drives her since she was little more than a slave growing up and was sold off as a sex slave in reality. There was no way to know she would get Drogo to love her, in fact the chances were pretty slim. And changing any society is messy, especially when abolishing an age old tradition that brings income to a region. Look at America when slavery was abolished, Lincoln didn't just say, "no more slaves" and then everybody went on singing and dancing and joyful over the decision. There was a war fought that abolishing slavery was one of the biggest contributing factors to that war. Even when the war was over things weren't ok for a long time. There's still lingering tension and issues surrounding race relations in America. Yes, she was foolish to think that abolishing slavery would be easy peasy and she could move on. She should have had a plan. But she learned from Astapor and Yunkai and that's why she stayed in Meereen. That's not crazy.

And following he4 instincts with regards to the eggs was her magic leading to her just as going north against all reasonable logic was Brans magic leading him. This is a world of magic, not just logic. And if she had started walking into the fire and felt pain she would have stopped. She never would have been in the inferno to need to escape. She started outside the fire then entered.

[Starfell]

There's a reasonable if not obvious reason for Dany hearing voices and seeing things ... but most people seem to only want to suggest that Starks and the Reeds and wildlings can warg and green see.

It's not as though she has any magical creatures nearby or magical ability... [ end sarcasm ] :devil:

What makes her behaviour with Drogon any different to the closeness between Jon and his direwolf? Or her behaviour any more changable than someone else with personal magic (not burning etc) say Bran?

P.S. she also doesn't have anyone to train her or explain the magics.

Only the Starks and people connected to them get to be special. It is known. Dany is mad and she just happens to have a form of madness where her hallucinations can accurately describe events taking place thousands of miles away completely unbeknownst to her. I'm glad we've sorted this out now.

I'm convinced the simple fact that she's even considering that she might be turning mad is evidence enough that she won't turn mad. I don't believe Aerys thought himself mad.

Her behavior in the last chapter is simply her having an epiphany. She needs to assume her own personality instead of letting people tell her what to do. She's going to drop her floppy ears and live by her family's words. She might have realized by now that if she wants to eradicate slavery, she'll most probably have to burn whole cities to the ground.

Her whole slave-freeing journey in Essos wasn't madness. It was only an ideal, which she hoped to achieve without really thinking about it. It was also the best way not to lose support in Westeros by being seen as a slaver. It wasn't completely stupid but she clearly didn't think it through.

This is a very good point, one of the main symptoms of most psychotic illnesses is that people don't realise there's anything wrong. If you talk to schizophrenics, for example, you often get the response "they say I'm ill", not "I'm ill". And even when you can get them to agree that, for example, the idea that someone's neighbours might be plotting against them in a vast conspiracy and tampering with their stuff when they're not around, is quite obviously outlandish and implausible, they'll still not consider their own belief that their neighbours are plotting against them in a vast conspiracy and tampering with their stuff when they're not around, to be in any way unusual. We call this "loss of insight", the very fact that Dany clearly still has insight is a fairly strong indicator of sanity

[Dany Girl]

Not on topic, but Theon also punished his men who raped in Winterfell.

thank you. I forgot that. But that serves my argument that stopping rapes from occurring is in fact in line with Westeros ideals and therefore she will not have the same issues conquering Westeros that she has had conquering Slaver's Bay :)

[JeepCSC]

Dany is delusional because she invokes 'dragons' in a similar way Joffrey invokes 'crown'. That is their justification, and it is delusional to think it carries the weight it does. Dany is of course naive, vague, indecisive too, but her believing she could conquer, reign, fundamentally alter an outside society simply because is her biggest flaw.

As for the inferno chapter, I'd think y'all should read it again. The entire thing reads like a Cersei pov in so much that she remained supremely confident even while others questioned her sanity. She even admitted to walking along the edges ("difference between madness and wisdom is small" or something like that). She wasn't turning back because she knew she wouldn't be harmed. The closest we get to that in the stories is Aerion and perhaps Summerhall (though we don't know for sure). If she had a bran-like vision she never admitted it to herself in her povs. Of course the obvious is Bran a. Had to be convinced up North through outside events, namely his home being captured, and b. did not head out to do something never done before. Without some idea that Dany visioned what to do, the way the story is presented is to come so close to madness as to be indistinguishable from madness.

But again, my point is not that she is mad. I think she was brought low by that maegi, and acted out for a moment. Now I think she is simply delusional about her name and dragons can transform her good intentions into wisdom. Again, she is Viserys, who I don't think was mad.

[Bacon Dragon the Crispy]

You could make arguments Dany is mad. You could also make better arguments that Cersei, Stannis, and Euron are even more mad. Yes, you could make these arguments... but none of them are true except for perhaps Euron LOL. All of the Kings and Queens are under tremendous stress and pressure. It is expected that they crack from time to time given that there is nothing stable about their positions or environments. Stress is the problem, not madness.

[Lazy Lion]

Dany isn't insane.

Dany is incompetent.

[Starfell]

Dany is delusional because she invokes 'dragons' in a similar way Joffrey invokes 'crown'. That is their justification, and it is delusional to think it carries the weight it does. Dany is of course naive, vague, indecisive too, but her believing she could conquer, reign, fundamentally alter an outside society simply because is her biggest flaw.

But again, my point is not that she is mad. I think she was brought low by that maegi, and acted out for a moment. Now I think she is simply delusional about her name and dragons can transform her good intentions into wisdom. Again, she is Viserys, who I don't think was mad.

I'm not sure how or when Dany "invokes dragons" as a tool of governance. You can't on one hand criticise her for being indecisive and on the other hand criticise her for thinking that "dragons make right" because the two positions are opposed to one another.

A delusion, by definition, is a belief that exists outside of what's considered acceptable by society (believing in God, for example) and is held unshakably, even in the face of contrary evidence; Dany's crusade in Essos doesn't fit those criteria, she knows that a society can be changed by the application of external force, her very first chapter (iirc) mentions that the Braavosi did exactly that when they made Pentos abandon slavery, and that's not mentioning Aegon's unification of Westeros. So we know that the belief that she can do the same isn't that outlandish. And she questions whether or not she's actually making a difference, more than once, so we know that it's not unshakably held. And besides, this sort of thing happens in real life too and gets signed off at the highest levels, remember what a clusterfuck the impetuous attempts to alter a foreign society by force with no realistic medium-long term strategy in Afghanistan and Iraq were.Dany is struggling and she knows that she's struggling, which is hardly surprising given the Herculean (some might say Sisyphean) task that she's set herself in trying to reform the slave trade around Slavers' Bay. None of that sounds very delusional to me because she has the means to accomplish it, just not yet the experience or skills.

The only real contender for a moment of madness seems to be the pyre scene; we know that Dany feels relatively safe entering the flames. What we can't know is whether that belief is completely internal to her or whether, as some have suggested, it's driven by a supernatural connection to the eggs/the spell, only GRRM could answer that.

[Dany Girl]

Dany is delusional because she invokes 'dragons' in a similar way Joffrey invokes 'crown'. That is their justification, and it is delusional to think it carries the weight it does. Dany is of course naive, vague, indecisive too, but her believing she could conquer, reign, fundamentally alter an outside society simply because is her biggest flaw.

As for the inferno chapter, I'd think y'all should read it again. The entire thing reads like a Cersei pov in so much that she remained supremely confident even while others questioned her sanity. She even admitted to walking along the edges ("difference between madness and wisdom is small" or something like that). She wasn't turning back because she knew she wouldn't be harmed. The closest we get to that in the stories is Aerion and perhaps Summerhall (though we don't know for sure). If she had a bran-like vision she never admitted it to herself in her povs. Of course the obvious is Bran a. Had to be convinced up North through outside events, namely his home being captured, and b. did not head out to do something never done before. Without some idea that Dany visioned what to do, the way the story is presented is to come so close to madness as to be indistinguishable from madness.

But again, my point is not that she is mad. I think she was brought low by that maegi, and acted out for a moment. Now I think she is simply delusional about her name and dragons can transform her good intentions into wisdom. Again, she is Viserys, who I don't think was mad.

she's not delusions over the dragons. She recognizes them as a tool, one that she'll use to take back her (in her view) rightful crown and seat. That's entitlement, not delusion. And for conquering/ changing Slaver's Bay, she does this out of compassion and the need to right the wrongs she sees happening. You cannot say that what she did was wrong, just the way she did it was wrong. That was ignorance because she didn't know better, not because she didn't care.

as for the inferno scene, maybe you should reread her other chapters in GoT to understand. She's been drawn to those eggs from day one. Entrapped by them. She's tried more than once putting them in heat and knew it wasn't hot enough. The pry was her solution and she had a psychic pull to enter the flames. Again, she starts outside, then entered, so if it was painful she could have stopped. Joher tries to stop her and she tells him the flames will not harm her, again because of her psychic ability. Just because those outside her don't understand doesn't make this crazy or wrong. She was right and survives unscathed, which is magic. The only reason anyone outside Bran knows about his visions is because he confides in Jojen and Meera and they believe him due to Jojen's greenseer status. Do you think if Bran told Ned about his visions Ned would be all, "sure, go ahead and journey north of the wall to seek out the 3 eyed crow! Sounds like a totally sane idea for an 8 year old!" Um, hell no. Anyone without magic/psychic abilities will not understand, and will find him crazy. Just as those that cannot understand Dany (partially because she doesn't explain her actions, but why Should she?) When really is was wise.

comparing her to Visaerys is wrong IMO. The only similarities is the sense of entitlement that both posses because Visaerys instilled this in Dany. Visaerys was cruel and selfish, Dany is not. She can be ruthless, but she does so to correct what she sees as wrong. Killing the slavers in reciprocation for them having killed the slaves as she approached the city was not cruelty for cruelty sake, it was to establish consequences to those that come after. This is an act I believe Stannis would have committed as well (he gelds rapists, cuts off Davos's fingers after Davos saves Storms End). It goes to her sense of justice, not to be cruel because she can as would be Visaerys reasoning.

[ellisg]

I think if you consider Dany mad you have to consider a number of people in this series mad. I think her decision to stay in Mereen is not madness but more naivety, ignorance and a lack of experience or understanding of the task at hand. Her intentions behind it are also very noble. There is a difference between doing what is right and what is easy.

As to her wandering into the flames being madness, well first of all Aerion Brightflame I don't think mad was the right word in his case either, just horribly delusional, I think we can all agree that he was that at least.

Lets look at the build up to the scene: The love of her life has just died due to the betrayal of someone she whose life she had just saved. She has also just lost her son, the Stallion who would Mount the World. Her Khalasar has also just abandoned her. That fire was her way of saying goodbye to Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur and maybe a part of her had hoped it would be way of saying goodbye to her life. At that point in time what did she have to live for? Jorah thought she was doing it to kill herself. After going through what Dany had just been through there would definitely be more than a few that would try and kill themselves and even more would consider it. She may have seen that fire as a win win situation. She lives at the end of the fire and has 3 dragons or she dies and is reunited with Drogo and her Rhaego in the Night Lands. A person walking into fire could be seen as madness, however if that person has just lost everything is it still madness or a way relieving the pain of life. I don't believe suicide or self harm is ever the answer to losing loved ones, but I can more than understand why some people would do it.

[Willard/Mitt Lannister]

I don't usually get sexist on this board, (Insert Lord Flashheart joke here) but I have to wonder if Dany was a male character, who did these things, and rode a dragon would the reaction be different? I think people would love him.

I hate to agree but I wonder about this myself.

Now, aside from the fact that madness is a socially created disorder (i.e. madness itself isn't an illness but rather the state of being perceived by others to be "mad"), there is no actual evidence that Dany is suffering from any form of mental illness that we might equivocate with madness.

The only evidence I have heard thus far:

A. The fire and the dragon eggs.

From day one, Dany was drawn to the eggs and had bizarrely intuitive thoughts about them. Madness is associated with a complete lack of contact with rational reality. For Dany, the rational thing to do was walk into the fire. For Dany, the reality was a massive payoff from that act. Thus, how can you say that she is mad? That's a rhetorical question because I know someone will say, she had no idea that she wouldn't die. No, that's not true. She did and she wouldn't have done it unless she thought otherwise. She was not suicidal prior to this, (btw being suicidal isn't mad, many if not most human beings will have suicidal thoughts at least once in their life) so it follows logically that Dany made a self-interested, rational decision to walk into the flames.

B. Her visions and prophecies...

Are more accurate than ANYONE else's including known magicians who are professional diviners. Also, to go back to the sexism argument, Ned and other characters suffer from delusional visions, mirages, etc. when under sever physical duress as Dany was at the end of ADWD, but nobody has called their sanity into question?

C. Her lack of leadership skills.

Someone said she is incompetent, not insane. I don't agree with that but it is going in the right direction. She is a FOURTEEN year old girl who has had a difficult life herself. She sympathizes with the enslaved because of her own experiences in life so it makes sense that she would want to pursue an end to the slave trade. But, because she is barely more than a child, you can't expect her to be an extremely adept ruler/leader. Name one historical example of a young teen being a great governor (on their own, nothing like Louis XIII and Richelieu).

D. Targaryens are always mad.

Except when they are not. The only veritably insane Targaryens were Aerys II, Aerion Brightflame, and a few others. We can't say whether or not Rhaegar is because we really don't know that much about his intentions with Lyanna. Maybe he was prophecy obsessed, maybe he just liked her face. Also, I really don't think that Viserys was insane. He was cruel and a bit of a sadist, but everything he did was a reaction to his childhood stress.

I get that people are annoyed with Dany and her storyline. I personally love Dany as a character but wish the plot would move faster. But, in truth, she is an emotionall complex teenage girl who is an adept leader but way in over her head. If that wouldn't make you a little frayed around the edges, then I don't know what to say.

[The Dragon Queen]

I don't have the exact quote, but someone compared her to Aegon and the true blood of the dragon unlike her mad father and brother.

To me, Dany seems to have proved to herself and to others around her that she is capable of being a good leader. She takes her queenly duties seriously by holding court, listening and responding to the claims of smallfolk, making decisions for the good of her people and not for her own selfish purposes. She abhors slavery and eliminates those who have perpetuated it. She hatched the first dragons in centuries and knew instinctively in the pit how to cow Drogon, mount him and ride him to safety.

I don't see madness here. Perhaps someone can convince me?

i agree with you...i cant see anything about her that is pointing to madness?? and her visions/dreams are part of the targ bloodline...Aenar's daughter had prophetic dreams and so does Bloodraven...and that did not make them crazy!

[The Dragon Queen]

Targs are known for prophetic dreams just as green seers are. There's nothing crazy about trying to abolish slavery or mass rape of women after war. It's compassion that drives her since she was little more than a slave growing up and was sold off as a sex slave in reality. There was no way to know she would get Drogo to love her, in fact the chances were pretty slim. And changing any society is messy, especially when abolishing an age old tradition that brings income to a region. Look at America when slavery was abolished, Lincoln didn't just say, "no more slaves" and then everybody went on singing and dancing and joyful over the decision. There was a war fought that abolishing slavery was one of the biggest contributing factors to that war. Even when the war was over things weren't ok for a long time. There's still lingering tension and issues surrounding race relations in America. Yes, she was foolish to think that abolishing slavery would be easy peasy and she could move on. She should have had a plan. But she learned from Astapor and Yunkai and that's why she stayed in Meereen. That's not crazy.

And following he4 instincts with regards to the eggs was her magic leading to her just as going north against all reasonable logic was Brans magic leading him. This is a world of magic, not just logic. And if she had started walking into the fire and felt pain she would have stopped. She never would have been in the inferno to need to escape. She started outside the fire then entered.

YES :agree:

[JeepCSC]

Viserys is cruel where Dany is not. I admitted as much. But the entitlement issue for beggars is beyond all proportion. Viserys at least has a contract he feels he is owed, but he thinks he knows what is best and sees no reason not to simply rewrite rules as he sees fit. Of course that is a trait that seems to be shared by most Targaryens we've seen, from Aegon to Rhaegar. It feels more pronounced in Viserys and Dany simply because they are coming from nothing, not crown princes who command great lords. And Dany goes beyond Viserys in imagining she can remake society to her whims (and I really wish Lincoln would stopped being brought up; I mean I get the link with slavery being bad and freeing slaves, but it is a cartoonish comparison on most every level). The fact her whims are good doesn't change the fact that she is delusional. She thinks she can do these things, and when pressed, she'll respond with a dragon quote or a House Targaryen quote. She feels she has the right to overhaul society simply because. It is delusion, born out of entitlement, naivety, and at times paranoia. She is a moral character where Joffrey and Viserys were not, but her delusions are no less real and her inability to look backwards is maddening to me.

As for the inferno, we have no idea of what she saw. We have no inkling about visions. She has never been shy to keep visions out of her povs, but on this she is silent. So all we see is the pyre being built, the dragon eggs being placed, her people pleading her to stop, her saying wisdom and madness aren't far apart, and her stepping into an inferno confident she would survive a situation in her mind no one had ever survived in the history of the world. I personally do not doubt Aerion had a similar belief when he drank the wildfire. So perhaps she had a vision, and on one sense perhaps that makes her no different than Bran. But Bran's visions troubled him, he didn't accept them blindly, and even when he finally accepted them he didn't attempt something never done before on the strengths of his visions. All we saw in that last chapter was madness leading to dragons.

[Pod The Impaler]

If that was Aerys, Robert, Joffrey or Cersei, he would be dead long time ago.

Actually, I would exclude Robert - he seems more likely to do what Dany did, or else challenge the boy to a fist fight.

The others would have dismembered the lad for it, defintely.

[Pod The Impaler]

Every time I come onto these boards I feel like I have to choose whether Dany is bat-shit insane or the messiah.

I feel the same - but there is room for a third option: insane messiah. :idea:

[Dragonstoned]

Seriously don't get where the 'Dany is mad' comes from. In Meereen she makes bad decisions but that's hardly madness.

[Dany Girl]

:bang: What member of the "elite" does not show entitlement issues? They're all spoiled entitled brats. Cersei thinks she's entitled to be Queen even though she killed the king. Robert thought he was entitled to lead a rebellion and be king b/c Aerys/Rhaefar wouldn't give Lyanna back (and Aerys was killing lords, but that was less motivation for Robert personally I think). And as for changing the world I've already mentioned multiple examples of people in leadership roles doing that very thing but if I need to go on...

-Aegon I taking his sisters to Westeros, using dragons to unite the 7 kingdoms under his family without their consent. The other kings had no choice, just as they will have no choice but to bend to Dany when she gets there

-Nymeria taking her people to Dorne, declaring herself Queen and forcing the natives to comply

-Braavos forcing other cities to give up slaves, yes they did a better job, but they had an established government and experience ruling, unlike 14/15 year old Dany

fact is, every ruler that ever was, currently is, or has yet to be has/will remake the world as they see fit. At least Dany does so with good intentions if not good plans. She WANTS to do right, to help people. That's not something you can tear down. Her motivation is pure, just her execution is poor. She had a lot left to learn, but has already come a far way from the methods she took in Astapor. She did learn from Astapor, therefore she does look back, she just refuses to dwell on her mistakes, instead chooses to change tactics. Now a little more reflection would obviously be helpful, instead of just changing tactics she should reflect on what went wrong and try to find a way to make a better decision.

And in the inferno, we've seen her being pulled to the eggs, infatuated by them, obsessing over them because she *feels* them. We also see that *feeling* present at the pry. Again, as she got closer to the flames they did not burn, did not hurt. Joher and her people were significantly further away so that was her sign that she was ok. At any point if it hurt she could have left, could have backed away with no harm done.

[JeepCSC]

I'll repeat once because you are getting angry and this doesn't seem to be doing much good. All the lords are entitled. That is how their system works, through titles. Tyrion throws around the name Lannister like it is a football. But Lannister is a powerful name in Westeros. When he throws it around, it carries weight. He uses his family name in a practical way. He knows there are limits to which the name serves though. When Viserys is screaming about him being a Targaryen in the middle of the Dothraki sea, well, that is different. He is a stranger in a strange land, but he acts like he is honoring them with his presence. He isn't crazy, he simply feels like he is owed the Iron Throne, and it is in everyone's interests to follow his desires. He is of the dragons dontchaknow. No matter that it is a fallen house in a faraway land and he is but a beggar at the feast. He deserves more, and he will scream loudly until he gets it. Joffrey is another who feel he deserves his whims to be met. He actually has the benefit of having a crown already, but he isn't practical with how he uses his titles.

Daenerys goes beyond Nymeria, Robert, Viserys, and even Aegon. She is a conqueror, true as those were or wish to have been. But none of those people tried to end feudalism in Westeros. They couldn't even begin to grasp the complexities of even trying to do that. Because it took more than a name and a sword (or even dragons) to change society like that. Robert didn't show up saying, "well, this has been fun, but we are taking heredity a little too far, time to break up the great estates and allow direct elections for our rulers. Why you ask? Because I am Robert, of House Baratheon, and I may be only a young man and do not understand the ways of the world, but this is the right thing to do and it shall be done. Stags are not afraid. I will see it done, with antlers and blood." Certainly it would be good if feudalism ended, but it would be delusional to believe you could end 8000 years of society simply because it is noble and you are a Baratheon. That is exactly what Dany is doing. Worse, it isn't like she is from Slavery Bay, she is from their archenemy, old Valyria. She is naive to think she could do it, she is delusional because she thinks the fact that she is a dragon allows her the right to do it.

As for the inferno, she was committed before she ever stepped foot into the blaze. Once in, she obviously felt the heat, her clothes burned, she was seeing visions in the flames, her hair obviously burned, her breasts were pouring milk (and maybe blood?, I can't remember). The commitment before she ever tried it was the madness. Believing the eggs needed a stronger fire was sane. Believing she had to be in the fire was madness. She wasn't planning to see how she would take to the inferno, it wasnt a trial run or something. She felt she had to be there, and everything in that chapter leads us and those around her to believe she would be fine. But inside her own head we never get a glimpse of a vision. It feels completely impulsive, and I think it almost certainly was.

[Teal'c]

Every time I come onto these boards I feel like I have to choose whether Dany is bat-shit insane or the messiah.

I think in Hebrew the two words are pretty similar...