The only proof she's not mad

[JeepCSC]

Revolutionaries by necessity look to gain power from the bottom, but they look to make changes from the top. They revolt to overthrow the powers-that-be so they can make top-down changes. Dany did like Aegon did, setting herself on top of the Mereen hierarchy and keeping it intact (mostly). But then she did something different, she changed the fundamental element that allowed Mereen to function as it had. That decision was one that changed society from the bottom up. Oh, and Aegon directly ruled over the 7K after conquering just as Dany directly ruled over Mereen. Simply because she ruled a smaller area doesn't mean she can't make more sweeping changes to that area than Aegon. That is just silly. Why bring up Yunkai, since as you said she expressly did not attempt to rule there?

Perhaps the future of Mereen lies in olive oil from the hills. We don't know, because our pov doesn't know. We know what she does, and that is very little. If a gold mine the slavers have been sitting on pops up out of nowhere, you can come and say 'told you so'. Not sure what you would have told me, but, well, whatever.

The Braavos claim is intriguing. Obviously we know little enough about what transpired 100-years ago or whenever, and what we do know is quite different than this. We are getting closer to a point I'd like to reiterate though. I do not fault Dany wanting to end slavery. Only how and why she sets about doing it, and my unshaken belief that she is deluded in what she is capable.

[The Knight of Grey Garden]

She isn't crazy. Crazy people don't wonder if they are crazy. She's still well aware of who she is.

I think Dany is very idealistic, a little immature, and certainly has good intentions. She also wants to live up to her family's legacy while at the same time dealing with her raging hormones.

That's not true at all, most of the time peoples with schizophrenia are aware that's not ''normal'' for example.

She's either too cruel in some situations or too gentle in others situations, it seems nothing she does follow a real pattern, it's becoming scary. Then again she's a teenage girl, so maybe it makes ''sense''.

[echidna]

That's not true at all, most of the time peoples with schizophrenia are aware that's not ''normal'' for example.

She's either too cruel in some situations or too gentle in others situations, it seems nothing she does follow a real pattern, it's becoming scary. Then again she's a teenage girl, so maybe it makes ''sense''.

She's got plenty of advisors but needs someone who understands the subtler aspects of power to advise her more actively so she considers the broader consequences in a less-Dothraki way.

There is a pattern, her kryptonite, is feeding off her dragons' emotions and losing herself

[booh]

Well, she is not mad (yet), she did some odd things, but she isn't completely crazy.

OTOH I believe she could certainly get worse, and became nuts, but it isn't something decided, but merely possible...

[zamieo]

I don't think she's mad and I don't think she can suddenly turn mad. Aerys was always mad, it's just that there was nothing that really made him get to the boiling point pre-Duskendale. After Duskendale and with Varys as an advisor, whispering paranoia into his ear, it made his madness get past the boiling point. Daenerys hasn't really showed anything that could be seen as madness, unless you count out the paranoia, but that's just part of being surrounded by enemies much stronger than you and not knowing who to trust.

[booh]

I don't think she's mad and I don't think she can suddenly turn mad. Aerys was always mad, it's just that there was nothing that really made him get to the boiling point pre-Duskendale. After Duskendale and with Varys as an advisor, whispering paranoia into his ear, it made his madness get past the boiling point. Daenerys hasn't really showed anything that could be seen as madness, unless you count out the paranoia, but that's just part of being surrounded by enemies much stronger than you and not knowing who to trust.

Well, paranoia could easily degenerate into madness... And Aerys at first was a good king.

[Dany Girl]

Well, paranoia could easily degenerate into madness... And Aerys at first was a good king.

it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. The dangers she sees around her are real. Ignoring them would be more "crazy" than being aware and trying to avoid them.

[Pale Eyes]

I see no proof that Daenerys is going insane. You can question her leadership abilities and the choices she made, but her actions have all been understandable from her position.

She is mad. Freeing slave cities with absolutely no transition besides "i am your mother ill kill whoever enslaves you". I lost respect for Dany a long time ago. Only reason i cared to her her chapters were for Jorah, and now selmy.

Aye, she didn't give much thought to the transition of the slaving cities. This is true, but giving her no credit for the position she was in is unfair. Daenerys was young still and found herself with a lot of power. It makes sense that she would want to act swiftly and decisively to end such atrocities as she found in the slaving cities. Or have you forgotten the Unsullied? Had she tried to make a slow transition doubtless many more would have been enslaved and tortured. You can argue that her actions led to a larger loss of life in the present, but who is to say that she didn't change the future for many? As for the whole "I am your mother Ill kill whoever enslaves you" statement you made, isn't that exactly what a good leader does? Protects their people?

For now, I think she is merely in the Viserys mode of delusions. She isn't outright mad like Aerys or anything. I don't think at any rate.

I don't think she is suffering any type of delusions like Viserys. Unless you mean that she doesn't know the truth about many things and thus lives in a state of misinformation.

that is proof she would be a terrible ruler. If anyone tried to off any of the kings in the books, Robb, Stannis, Robert, Renly they would all have executed him. Even Ned probably would have. It doesn't prove she is not mad it just shows weakness.

This is ridiculous. Daenerys has proven that she isn't weak. How many people has she executed for their crimes? At least those slavers she crucified. Sometimes killing people isn't the answer. Especially when your trying to win over a hostile cities inhabitants.

agree, she has been too merciful

There are plenty of flaws to find in Daenery's character, yet this isn't one of them. If she executed everyone who offended her would she be strong in your point of view? Or would you then say that she is as crazy as Aerys. Seems to me many on this board have Daenerys trapped in a no win situation.

I don't usually get sexist on this board, (Insert Lord Flashheart joke here) but I have to wonder if Dany was a male character, who did these things, and rode a dragon would the reaction be different? I think people would love him.

I really don't even like to bring this up. I have to assume that people don't like Daenerys for what they assume to be valid reasons. Although in my humble opinion people dislike her because she has spent too much time in places that aren't Westeros.

[Parwan]

Revolutionaries by necessity look to gain power from the bottom, but they look to make changes from the top. They revolt to overthrow the powers-that-be so they can make top-down changes.

Nope, this is not an accurate picture. In one extreme case, the peasants with the pitchforks scenario, many violent changes come directly from the bottom. The top people wind up with their heads on pikes which are carried through the street. In other cases, there are ideas which come from various ranks of society, not necessarily the bottom, but also not the top. These ideas (freedom of expression, redistribution of wealth, etc.) do not necessarily have to be enforced from the top. Sometimes the leadership just needs to stay out of the way and allow things to happen. Finally, a revolution may lead to a truly representative government, one in which people throughout the society do have a voice in the government. These people are empowered to make changes, from the top, bottom, or middle. Dany is not a revolutionary. She has done some remarkable things, and she truly wants to be a good queen. That does not mean she would make a good queen. Clearly though, she has always been part of the aristocracy. She sees monarchy as the natural order of things. She believes that if the true monarch is on the throne, good things will come from this fact. One may say that she is anything from just unsuccessful to totally incompetent. Her actions, however, do not indicate mental disorder.

Dany did like Aegon did, setting herself on top of the Mereen hierarchy and keeping it intact (mostly). But then she did something different, she changed the fundamental element that allowed Mereen to function as it had. That decision was one that changed society from the bottom up. Oh, and Aegon directly ruled over the 7K after conquering just as Dany directly ruled over Mereen. Simply because she ruled a smaller area doesn't mean she can't make more sweeping changes to that area than Aegon. That is just silly.

I do not agree with the assertion that there was one fundamental element that allowed Meereen to function as it had. Dany does little to change the distribution of wealth. She does nothing to change the religion. She allows the powerful families to remain powerful. With one exception, she even allows these families to remain in those pyramids of theirs, a clear mistake because these are strong positions from which they can give her trouble.

It is not necessarily revolutionary to make sweeping changes to a small area. Even conservative leaders are sometimes willing to try bold moves in small areas as test cases. I'm not saying that Meereen is a test case for freeing slaves. I'm just saying that a bold move in a small area does not show that a leader is a revolutionary, or even a liberal. It certainly doesn't show that the leader is mentally ill. There is just nothing in Dany's actions that justifies the idea that she is trying to "end 8000 years of society."

Why bring up Yunkai, since as you said she expressly did not attempt to rule there?

Because Yunkai is relevant to the discussion. People keep saying that Dany is trying to end slavery. This is an overstatement. Freeing slaves in areas which you rule is not the same thing as ending slavery. When you said, "none of those people tried to end feudalism in Westeros," it was perfectly legitimate for me to reply that Dany was not trying to end slavery in Essos. It seems to me overwhelmingly likely that, if John Brown had taken Yunkai'i, he would have damn well have ended slavery there. He wouldn't have just freed those currently in bondage and then marched away.

Perhaps the future of Mereen lies in olive oil from the hills. We don't know, because our pov doesn't know. We know what she does, and that is very little. If a gold mine the slavers have been sitting on pops up out of nowhere, you can come and say 'told you so'. Not sure what you would have told me, but, well, whatever.

The Braavos claim is intriguing. Obviously we know little enough about what transpired 100-years ago or whenever, and what we do know is quite different than this. We are getting closer to a point I'd like to reiterate though. I do not fault Dany wanting to end slavery. Only how and why she sets about doing it, and my unshaken belief that she is deluded in what she is capable.

The olive oil business is relevant not just for future possibilities. It's one thing that shows the claim that Meereen absolutely depends (or ever completely depended) on the slave trade has some weaknesses. There is no need for discovery of a gold mine. Meereen was and remains an extremely wealthy city. The text overwhelmingly supports this claim. The rich areas were not heavily affected by the sacking. Dany says that she will have no problem providing a monetary indemnity to the Yunkai'i as part of a peace agreement. Hizdahr tells the queen, "I will gladly bring you rings and crowns and chests of gold if that is your desire." And there is more along that line. Such a wealthy city, one which also has skilled craftsmen, weavers, entertainers, merchants, etc. should be able to survive quite nicely. There is only one significant problem--all the enemies that are attacking the city. I do not see the existence of bitter enemies as Dany's fault. Now, the fact that these enemies are in a strong position, and the fact that they have allies within the city walls. Yes, those facts have to be blamed on the dragon queen. However, one more time, they are not evidence of insanity.

[SeanF]

The olive oil business is relevant not just for future possibilities. It's one thing that shows the claim that Meereen absolutely depends (or ever completely depended) on the slave trade has some weaknesses. There is no need for discovery of a gold mine. Meereen was and remains an extremely wealthy city. The text overwhelmingly supports this claim. The rich areas were not heavily affected by the sacking. Dany says that she will have no problem providing a monetary indemnity to the Yunkai'i as part of a peace agreement. Hizdahr tells the queen, "I will gladly bring you rings and crowns and chests of gold if that is your desire." And there is more along that line. Such a wealthy city, one which also has skilled craftsmen, weavers, entertainers, merchants, etc. should be able to survive quite nicely. There is only one significant problem--all the enemies that are attacking the city. I do not see the existence of bitter enemies as Dany's fault. Now, the fact that these enemies are in a strong position, and the fact that they have allies within the city walls. Yes,

those facts have to be blamed on the dragon queen. However, one more time, they are not evidence of insanity.

In the longer term, one would expect the abolition of slavery to result in big rise in productivity, as free paid workers are usually more productive than slaves doing the bare minimum they can to avoid a whipping. Also, many of the slaves who get sold to Mereen get trained to perform skilled tasks, before being sold on to the Free Cities. People who possess these educational skills could make a living selling them. But, none of this would have happened in the short time that Dany's been in Mereen. In the longer term, if the Slaver coalition is defeated, Mereen's prospects should be fine.

[SeanF]

WRT revolutionaries, I think it's very common for a small clique at the top to push through sweeping change, in the name of the masses, but without consulting the masses. The Jacobins, Bolsheviks, Khmer Rouge etc. all did so.

But, as you say, Dany is not a revolutionary. I don't think she could even imagine a world which is not governed by Kings, Queens, and nobles, and I think that's why she keeps the Mereenese nobility in place. Most of her dealings with the native free population are through the nobility.

[Parwan]

WRT revolutionaries, I think it's very common for a small clique at the top to push through sweeping change, in the name of the masses, but without consulting the masses. The Jacobins, Bolsheviks, Khmer Rouge etc. all did so.

But, as you say, Dany is not a revolutionary. I don't think she could even imagine a world which is not governed by Kings, Queens, and nobles, and I think that's why she keeps the Mereenese nobility in place. Most of her dealings with the native free population are through the nobility.

Yeah, the takeover by a small group is a common phenomenon. I can't claim to be an expert in this area, but it seems to me that there are several reasons. Sometimes it may just be a cynical power play. At other times there are probably deeply held beliefs, based on ideology, the necessity for a "dictatorship of the proletariat," that sort of thing. There's also the fact that revolutions can lead to very harsh and chaotic conditions, the sort of conditions that favor a takeover by the tough guys. Finally, the peasants and/or the urban poor may shake things up, but they have a hard time holding onto power. This also may be generally true for leaders whose power is based in the peasantry, guys like Pancho Villa and Emiliano Zapata.

My main point is that Dany can't be viewed as some wild-eyed radical, intent on overthrowing the social order, and saying "to hell with the consequences." Further, I dispute the claim that she is totally thoughtless and incompetent, with no plan of action. Some of the criticism directed at her is definitely legit. The quality of her plans and her actions can be very poor. The freeing of the slaves was, to a considerable extent, an emotional action. People can debate how well-advised it was. I see no reason to maintain that it is evidence of mental illness.