heirs to noble houses born with different surnames

[Timm Snow]

hi,

i am sorry but i couldn't find anything anywhere that answered my question. i read this:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs

Heirs born into a different house drop their birth surname when they come into their inheritance, adopting the name of the inherited house as their own^[13]. Therefore, in theory is it all but impossible for a noble house to become extinct: with enough research, each line can be traced back to the Age of Heroes and is highly unlikely to have no modern descendants.

and thinking about it how it seldom seems to apply if at all.

is it because a proud lord would not drop his own name just to save another from extinction? lancel at least keeps the sigil partly intact to appease his subjects.

also this is my first thread. please don't feed me to a dragon.

[Alexander the Drake]

This is an interesting question, and I think it works out like this

1) Change of surname:

The linked example given from the Wikipedia is this situation from Bran's POV chapter where he and Maester Luwin are discussing the support of their bannermen:

Lady Hornwood's son Daryn, who was the sole heir to Hornwood, died during the Battle of the Whispering Wood. She herself was born a Manderley and has no real legal claim to the lands in her own right, although people are trying to marry her to get temporary control of the incomes and such because she's the widow of the former lord and has charge of them until presumably a subsequent heir reaches the age of maturity.

Lord Hornwood has a bastard son, Larence Snow, who is in the custody of House Glover could be legitimated and made heir, which would please the Glovers. Alternatively, Lord Hornwood's sister married a Tallhart, and one of her sons could be made heir.

With either of these candidates, the boy is up for a position as next head of House Hornwood, and would thus likely take the Hornwood name to acknowledge that he was basically formally adopted into and inheriting from that line.

A similar example would be the legitimization of Ramsay Snow to Ramsay Bolton and his setting up (minor spoilers for something that happens in ADWD but you've probably heard about this already)

the Bolton of Winterfell line

, distinct from the Bolton of the Dreadfort line which would continue from Roose and Walda's children, should any of them live long enough.

2) No change of surname:

Lancel isn't joining the Darrys as one of them, but remaining a Lannister who was granted Darry lands (the Darrys were technically on the wrong side of the Wot5K, so their castle could be considered spoils of war) and is incidentally marrying a lady of Darry blood.

As his aunt Lady Genna notes, the Darrys are extinguished in the male line, which makes Darry a safer seat for Lancel's lordship than Riverrun would be for her own grandsons. Jaime notes that he can see his uncle Kevan's hand in Lancel's choice of bride and quartering of the arms on the castle flags, because having the half-Darry Amerei Frey as wife and pretending that their families were joined through marriage alliance rather than getting the castle via conquest would ease his cousin's way with the locals.

But at no time is Lancel pretending to be a Darry heir himself, or taking up and continuing the Darry lineage. He's just a Lannister who got awarded the defeated rebel holdings of the former Darrys (which just happen to be also named Darry) as a post-war prize.

At least, that's my understanding of things.

We get a similar example to #2 with the castle of Nightsong, which was traditionally the seat of House Caron, but got awarded to Philip Foote after the Blackwater, so now instead it's the seat of the future House Foote.

[Timm Snow]

as such arises a follow up question. if it is customary to "take over" a house and "claim it for one's own house" as in house x of y rather than house y why are there not more examples. it would seem to me then that westeros should be full of such "offspring houses" as apparently it is rather common for the male main line to go extinct and/or seats awarded to other houses. in all these years of strife this seems plausible.

[Aelinor Keath]

as such arises a follow up question. if it is customary to "take over" a house and "claim it for one's own house" as in house x of y rather than house y why are there not more examples. it would seem to me then that westeros should be full of such "offspring houses" as apparently it is rather common for the male main line to go extinct and/or seats awarded to other houses. in all these years of strife this seems plausible.

remember that women and their children inherit equally in westeros. so if a lord dies and he only has a daughter, she becomes lady and keeps the family name. Her children will also have her family name because they will be inheriting from their mother. So female line descent is considered normal and not worth mentioning.

There are various castles that have been granted to other families, especially during the blackfyre rebellion.

[Timm Snow]

remember that women and their children inherit equally in westeros. so if a lord dies and he only has a daughter, she becomes lady and keeps the family name. Her children will also have her family name because they will be inheriting from their mother. So female line descent is considered normal and not worth mentioning.

There are various castles that have been granted to other families, especially during the blackfyre rebellion.

so fake arya's children would be named stark not bolton, seeing how they would inherit winterfell from their "stark" mother not from their bolton father? ignoring the fact that the boltons would never go for it anywqa<y.

[Alexander the Drake]

We actually have a fair amount of House X of Y in the wiki.

This is not immediately visible on the Houses of Westeros page, unfortunately, since it only lists the placenames where there's two houses with the same surname but different seats. Sometimes those are just cadet lines which got established through in their own right by a different mechanism, such as the red-apple and green-apple Fossoways, who arose from a dispute between two Fossoway cousins in one of the Dunk and Egg novellas.

But from the one of the other Dunk and Egg novellas, we have the example of House Webber which owns Coldmoat. Coldmoat used to be a castle of the Osgrey line, but it was awarded to the Webbers after the Osgreys were on the Blackfyre side of the rebellion. But since there seems to be just one main line of House Webber and no offshoots and Coldmoat is their main seat now, they're just called House Webber and not House Webber of Coldmoat. Although their head-of-house Lady Rohanne, is addressed as both Lady Webber and the Lady of the Coldmoat.

In ASOIAF proper in the present-day, there's quite a few X of Y's being established as a result of the Wot5K, mostly from the Riverlands and the Reach.

We now have House Tyrell of Brightwater Keep, because the Florents were declared traitors and Garlan Tyrell was given their lands and his children will have a new inheritance separate from his older brother Willas' line. There's also going to be House Spicer of Castamere, though they'll probably just be called House Spicer, since there's only one main line of it since it went to the eldest male Spicer, who'll be addressed as Lord Spicer or the Lord of Castamere.

remember that women and their children inherit equally in westeros. so if a lord dies and he only has a daughter, she becomes lady and keeps the family name. Her children will also have her family name because they will be inheriting from their mother. So female line descent is considered normal and not worth mentioning.

Exactly. Lady Waynwood of the Vale and Lady Oakheart of the Reach are both hold the inheritance in their own right (they each have adult sons who are merely heirs and not yet Lord) and their sons have all taken the surname of their House.

It's a direct unbroken continuance of the House through the female members of the original male line.

[Alexander the Drake]

so fake arya's children would be named stark not bolton, seeing how they would inherit winterfell from their "stark" mother not from their bolton father? ignoring the fact that the boltons would never go for it anywqa<y.

I think this could be counted as a marriage-alliance/conquest scenario, since the Boltons were granted Wardenship of the North by the Iron Throne after bending the knee after the Red Wedding and fake-Arya was sent up to seal that deal.

It could go either way, if they wanted to bolster the seeming legitimacy of Fake-Arya by making her children "Starks" because "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and Roose Bolton seems to be pragmatic to go along with the idea anyway.

But since the Starks were basically declared traitors forfeit to the Crown, perhaps Fake-Arya may just be considered a disinherited Stark being wed to a Bolton and her half-Stark children inheriting not really from her as Lady of Winterfell in her own right, but Lady of Winterfell by marriage to its new Lord, and who just happens to have the old Stark of Winterfell blood to make things look more acceptable to the locals.

[Timm Snow]

obviously there is no problem with a lady who already has a SON. but a widowed lady with a daughter seems to be the end of the line unless someone is brought into the house again through legitimization or adoption.

if that daughter marries she will become a part of some other house and take that name. or will the man she marries take hers? or will it become a house x of y situation?

I think this could be counted as a marriage-alliance/conquest scenario, since the Boltons were granted Wardenship of the North by the Iron Throne after bending the knee after the Red Wedding and fake-Arya was sent up to seal that deal.

It could go either way, if they wanted to bolster the seeming legitimacy of Fake-Arya by making her children "Starks" because "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and Roose Bolton seems to be pragmatic to go along with the idea anyway.

But since the Starks were basically declared traitors forfeit to the Crown, perhaps Fake-Arya may just be considered a disinherited Stark being wed to a Bolton and her half-Stark children inheriting not really from her as Lady of Winterfell in her own right, but Lady of Winterfell by marriage to its new Lord, and who just happens to have the old Stark of Winterfell blood to make things look more acceptable to the locals.

ignoring all the political difficulties associated with being a stark and simply taking winterfell as an example scenario. ignoring the "tension" between bolton and stark. her children could be named stark and not bolton? that was new to me and would answer many questions.

[Dr. Pepper]

There are plenty examples in the story. The Stokeworths are one, Hayford another, Mormonts yet another. The house names remain the same, children born to these female ladies will retain the house name. However, unlike how ladies tend to go by their husbands names upon marriage more often than their maiden name, the males who marry a female heir tend to always go by their birth names. Falyse's husband is always called Balman Byrch, Esmerande's husband is still always called Tyrek Lannister.

[Timm Snow]

so ser x (himself a second son or lower) marries lady y of house y in seat y.

he will become lord x, seated at y

she will remain lady y but occasionally be referred to as lady x

all their children will be named y and eventually inherit house y and continue the line?

for all these examples i assume a peaceful union, so maybe winterfell was not wisely chosen as an example.

THANKS!

[Alexander the Drake]

obviously there is no problem with a lady who already has a SON. but a widowed lady with a daughter seems to be the end of the line unless someone is brought into the house again through legitimization or adoption.

No, this is not a problem. Daughters can keep inheriting through the originally male-descended female line.

We have in the Crownlands Lady Tanda Stokeworth, who has only daughters. Her daughter and heir Falyse Stokeworth was married to Ser Balman Byrch, but they had no children. So Falyse's heir is her younger sister Lollys Stokeworth, who is now Lady of Stokeworth after her mother's death and sister's disappearance.

In the North, we have the Mormonts of Bear Island. Lady Maege Mormont had five daughters. Dacey was the eldest and heir, but she died at the Red Wedding, so now Alysane Mormont is heir, and the next in line is Alysane's son.

if that daughter marries she will become a part of some other house and take that name. or will the man she marries take hers? or will it become a house x of y situation?

As we've seen above, it looks like the daughter keeps her House name, and the man keeps his own name. But sometimes people will kind of combine their lineages informally, like Joffrey being styled as "King Joffrey of Houses Baratheon and Lannister" and having divided arms on their personal gear like his stag-and-lion clothing.

ignoring all the political difficulties associated with being a stark and simply taking winterfell as an example scenario. ignoring the "tension" between bolton and stark. her children could be named stark and not bolton? that was new to me and would answer many questions.

Yes, it seems like they certainly could be. I don't think we ever get any kind of explanation as to what the actual circumstances under which it was agreed that Fake-Arya would be shipped up to the Boltons, and like I said, they could just call the kids Stark for pragmatic reasons and no one would argue too hard because the locals would probably prefer to pretend that it's just like having Lord Eddard's family back.

[Dr. Pepper]

so ser x (himself a second son or lower) marries lady y of house y in seat y.

he will become lord x, seated at y

she will remain lady y but occasionally be referred to as lady x

all their children will be named y and eventually inherit house y and continue the line?

for all these examples i assume a peaceful union, so maybe winterfell was not wisely chosen as an example.

THANKS!

As to the bolded, not exactly. Falyse Stokeworth is always called Stokeworth, never Byrch but Balman Byrch is never called Balman Stokeworth. On the other side of things, Catelyn is mostly called Stark, though sometimes Tully depending on situation.

[Alexander the Drake]

so ser x (himself a second son or lower) marries lady y of house y in seat y.

he will become lord x, seated at y

she will remain lady y but occasionally be referred to as lady x

all their children will be named y and eventually inherit house y and continue the line?

Yeah, this seems like pretty much it, except that Ser X could also be addressed as Lord Y because he officially married Lady Y and became consort-head-of-House Y.

In the Stokeworth example I gave above, Lady Lollys is currently married to Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, whose household knights called him "Lord Stokeworth" when they were driving off Lady Falyse (there's a complicated situation where Falyse and Balman tried to kill Bronn and failed, so he kind of usurped the position until Falyse disappeared and her mother died; but aside from that, it seems to be how things would work).

As to the bolded, not exactly. Falyse Stokeworth is always called Stokeworth, never Byrch but Balman Byrch is never called Balman Stokeworth. On the other side of things, Catelyn is mostly called Stark, though sometimes Tully depending on situation.

I think Balman isn't called Stokeworth because while he's alive, he's just married to the heir of the house, not the ruling lady of the house. Catelyn gets called both Tully and Stark depending on who's making what associations with which family they're linking her with at the time. And as consort-head-of-House to Eddard, being "Lady Stark" would have a prestige and position in its own right.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think Balman isn't called Stokeworth because while he's alive, he's just married to the heir of the house, not the ruling lady of the house. Catelyn gets called both Tully and Stark depending on who's making what associations with which family they're linking her with at the time. And as consort-head-of-House to Eddard, being "Lady Stark" would have a prestige and position in its own right.

There seems to be no indication that Balman is to be called Stokeworth after Tanda dies. He was the husband of the ruling lady of Stokeworth for a bit before he dies. Just as there was no indication that Tyrek was going to be known as Tyrek Hayford once he married the ruling lady baby of Hayford.

I don't disagree with you on the Stark/Tully thing. I was merely pointing out that it seems uncommon for men married to a ruling lady of x house to be referred to male x. They seem to retain their own name.

[Alexander the Drake]

There seems to be no indication that Balman is to be called Stokeworth after Tanda dies. He was the husband of the ruling lady of Stokeworth for a bit before he dies. Just as there was no indication that Tyrek was going to be known as Tyrek Hayford once he married the ruling lady baby of Hayford.

I don't disagree with you on the Stark/Tully thing. I was merely pointing out that it seems uncommon for men married to a ruling lady of x house to be referred to male x. They seem to retain their own name.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the husbands would be referred to as Firstname WifesSurname, but instead being likely to be addressed as Lord House directly by their underlings, or styled as "Balman Byrch, Lord Stokeworth", or "Tyrek Lannister, Lord Hayford", which seems like it would be reasonable to me.

And Lady Falyse technically wasn't Lady Stokeworth, because she seems to have worried what would have happened to her elderly mother with the castle under Bronn's control. And then Cersei sent her to Qyburn.

[StarksOfWinterfell]

There is also the example of Harrold Hardyng. Since he is the heir to House Arryn, which has much more prestige and reputation than House Hardyng, Harry would take the surname Arryn. This is because the lords of the Vale would rather be ruled by House Arryn than a house like Hardyng.

[Timm Snow]

ok thanks.

so i assume that naming (f)arya's children stark would gain roose nothing. ramsay would wreak havoc all over the north until he dies of age and roose' new true born son would probably inherit the dreadfort. the bolton of winterfell line would die out and the new starks born of this "union" would grow up thinking themselves actual starks. i see no bonus for house bolton in this other than having his despised bastard installed in wf and restarted the line he meant to overthrow. but good to know that it seems to be technically possible. and also good none of this is going to matter in the case of winterfell because of king rickon. :D

[Dr. Pepper]

And Lady Falyse technically wasn't Lady Stokeworth, because she seems to have worried what would have happened to her elderly mother with the castle under Bronn's control. And then Cersei sent her to Qyburn.

Thanks for that. Thought Tanda died shortly before the Balman/Bronn duel.

[Blue Maid]

ok thanks.

so i assume that naming (f)arya's children stark would gain roose nothing. ramsay would wreak havoc all over the north until he dies of age and roose' new true born son would probably inherit the dreadfort. the bolton of winterfell line would die out and the new starks born of this "union" would grow up thinking themselves actual starks. i see no bonus for house bolton in this other than having his despised bastard installed in wf and restarted the line he meant to overthrow.

(f)Arya's children are possibly the most useful pieces in Roose's long-game. Ramsay is a wild card (never completely controllable because of his "tainted blood" psychosis) . His best use was to produce Bolton/Stark children that would/could, regardless of their name, have a claim to the North independent of their father/grandfather. I.e. (f) Arya has a son. Her husband, Ramsay, dies (perhaps an unfortunate accident or a convenient "sickness", like his brother Domeric). (f)Arya has no father, so her father-in-law (Roose, her son's grandfather) would be the one to step in and rule ( a'la Tywin as Joffrey's Hand). I am not saying that this scenario was likely to play out, but it certainly seems like a contingency plan the Rooseman might come up with.