why stannis pisses me off...

[Rhymes with Weak]

Kurt Cobain said something just like that in 1991

We all know how well that went...

[OnionAhaiReborn]

No, I'm afraid what I said really is correct. Stannis had suspicions. He and Jon investigated, and together they found proof. It was Jon Arryn who found Maester Malloreon's book: Jon Arryn who visited Gendry. You're right enough that Stannis kicked off things by approaching Jon - but wrong in saying that he 'told' Jon Arryn about the incest.

No, you are not correct. What you said was:

Stannis should have gone to Renly in private and told him the truth about the incest, long before either of them declared for the throne. But Stannis didn't trust anyone with this information.

Then you said:

No. They investigated and discovered it together.

The crux of the issue is that Stannis confided in someone his suspicions- your contention which I first responded to was that Stannis 'didn't trust anyone' with information about the incest. The fact is that he did trust someone with information about the incest, he took whatever evidence led to his suspicion-which may have been as simple as the children's hair color, but was still clearly information sufficient as to spark interest, to Jon Arryn, with whom he then gathered further information. And they clearly didn't 'discover' it together, Stannis discovered whatever aroused his suspicions in the first place (which Varys says came from a tipster), and took that discovery to Arryn, who was persuaded by the case Stannis made to pursue it further. That he gathered more information with Jon Arryn in no way negates the fact that he did choose to trust someone with information about the incest.

But conjecture that's very well-founded. I can see no other reason for a secret (well, very low-profile) fostering agreement.

But that's founding your conjecture on your belief. Without any textual evidence that Robert Arryn was to be used as collateral, we should assume the most straightforward reason. Westerosi Lords often foster their children with other Lords to strengthen bonds. Jon Arryn is seeking to foster his son to a man that he expects will soon be heir to the Throne, a shrewd political mood that any Lord would make if given the chance.

Well, to coin a phrase, just because they're all out to get you doesn't mean you're not still paranoid. ;)

More seriously, as I said: mistrust breeds mistrust. Ned gets a lot of stick for being too trusting, but the plain fact is that being too openly mistrustful of others is a serious political handicap too.

I agree that it is a political handicap inasmuch as it contributes to his lack of charisma when dealing with other Lords. As you said, it's difficult to be loved by those you refuse to trust. I do think, however, that mistrust can also be of service at times. And in the case of Stannis' decision not to trust Robert or Renly with his incest suspicions, he was wise and correct in his mistrust.

[Tenzinkendrick]

Goddamn Stannis. This is how you can remember the kings in Game of Thrones:

Jorah: King of the friendzone

Robb: King in the north

Joffrey/Tommen: King on the Iron Throne

Renly: King of Highgarden

Stannis: King of 'I have to do it'

Also, he is easily manipulated when some woman says 'hey, you're the messiah, have sex with me and birth an evil shadowy demon baby to kill your brother so your fleet can be annihilated by a dwarf with pig shit'.

[The Red Melli]

Goddamn Stannis. This is how you can remember the kings in Game of Thrones:

Jorah: King of the friendzone

Robb: King in the north

Joffrey/Tommen: King on the Iron Throne

Renly: King of Highgarden

Stannis: King of 'I have to do it'

Also, he is easily manipulated when some woman says 'hey, you're the messiah, have sex with me and birth an evil shadowy demon baby to kill your brother so your fleet can be annihilated by a dwarf with pig shit'.

That's not how it went ...

[mormont]

No, you are not correct. What you said was:

Then you said:

The crux of the issue is that Stannis confided in someone his suspicions- your contention which I first responded to was that Stannis 'didn't trust anyone' with information about the incest. The fact is that he did trust someone with information about the incest, he took whatever evidence led to his suspicion-which may have been as simple as the children's hair color, but was still clearly information sufficient as to spark interest, to Jon Arryn, with whom he then gathered further information.

So your contention is that I was wrong, because by 'information about the incest' I actually meant 'whatever information (if any) led Stannis to have initial suspicions about the parentage of the children', not 'information proving the incest'?

It's unwise to try to build an argument by telling someone else what they meant by what they said, I find.

I'll grant that Stannis trusted Jon Arryn enough to bring suspicions to him. But at the same time, it's evident that this trust was shaky, hence the fosterage agreement.

But that's founding your conjecture on your belief. Without any textual evidence that Robert Arryn was to be used as collateral, we should assume the most straightforward reason. Westerosi Lords often foster their children with other Lords to strengthen bonds. Jon Arryn is seeking to foster his son to a man that he expects will soon be heir to the Throne, a shrewd political mood that any Lord would make if given the chance.

This argument is what is technically known as 'a load of bollocks'. The agreement was clearly private: the King himself didn't know about it, despite the fact that it was agreed between his brother and his foster father. There's no way that this interpretation makes sense if Robert was kept in the dark, because this explanation contains no reason why Robert would be kept in the dark.

I agree that it is a political handicap inasmuch as it contributes to his lack of charisma when dealing with other Lords. As you said, it's difficult to be loved by those you refuse to trust. I do think, however, that mistrust can also be of service at times. And in the case of Stannis' decision not to trust Robert or Renly with his incest suspicions, he was wise and correct in his mistrust.

The results suggest otherwise: as I pointed out, Stannis did his cause considerable harm by not telling Renly.