aceluby Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 What if Jojen and Howland Reed are the same person? Is there anyone at WF that has met Howland? He hasn't been seen by anyone since the rebellion. And for the real crackpot part, what if he is half CotF half human (or simply a CotF) allowing for him to look like children/teens for a good portion of their lives? Is this an absolutely insane theory, or is it plausible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard/Mitt Lannister Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 As far as I can tell, many people think that Jojen Reed may be warged by Howland Reed. I think that it is likely, however, that Rodrik Cassel would have noticed if they were the exact same person, considering he fought with Howland Reed in Robert's Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Apparently not as crackpot as you would think. I don't buy it for a second, but a quick search revealed five other threads of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 As far as I can tell, many people think that Jojen Reed may be warged by Howland Reed. I think that it is likely, however, that Rodrik Cassel would have noticed if they were the exact same person, considering he fought with Howland Reed in Robert's Rebellion.Rodrick is gone when the Reeds show up and IIRC he doesn't return until the Iron Born have taken WF and he loses his head, right? I'm still rereading ACOK, so I may be wrong on that. But if that's the case it's not likely that he'd be all 'hey, what's Howland doing here?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 Apparently not as crackpot as you would think. I don't buy it for a second, but a quick search revealed five other threads of this.Blach... I should have searched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slackylc Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Yeah I've seen something similar to this before, arguing he has a Benjamin Button style illness, which accounts for why people think of him as a solemn grandfather, and for why he seems to know the day that he dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Blach... I should have searchedI didn't mean that as a slight to you, more a reference to it being crackpot territory ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Whine Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 No. They are not the same person. Rodrick and possibly others, would have recognized Howland as W.M. Lannister pointed out.As far as I can tell, many people think that Jojen Reed may be warged by Howland Reed. I think that it is likely, however, that Rodrik Cassel would have noticed if they were the exact same person, considering he fought with Howland Reed in Robert's Rebellion.I also cannot accept that Howland is warging Jojen. Warging a person is an abomination... warging your son is an incestuous abomination. Even if "Jojen" is not actually Howland's son but some random peasant it is still creepy/ugly. Then if Jojen is not Jojen, who is Meera? Its just.. no. Their story as presented is far more likely than any sort of warging / semi-immortal Howland theory.That being said... it would not be so ludicrous to think that the Reed's or Crannogmen in general had intermingled their bloodline with the COTF at some point. I mean... inter-species breeding is kinda creepy to begin with, but Tolkien had half elves, so Martin is free to have half-forest spirit gnome things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueberry Stark Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 No. They are not the same person. Rodrick and possibly others, would have recognized Howland as W.M. Lannister pointed out.I also cannot accept that Howland is warging Jojen. Warging a person is an abomination... warging your son is an incestuous abomination. Even if "Jojen" is not actually Howland's son but some random peasant it is still creepy/ugly. Then if Jojen is not Jojen, who is Meera? Its just.. no. Their story as presented is far more likely than any sort of warging / semi-immortal Howland theory.That being said... it would not be so ludicrous to think that the Reed's or Crannogmen in general had intermingled their bloodline with the COTF at some point. I mean... inter-species breeding is kinda creepy to begin with, but Tolkien had half elves, so Martin is free to have half-forest spirit gnome things.Idk what to think about Jojen, but he is definitely strange in some ways. Although I don't buy the theory that Howland is warging Jojen, or that he is actually Jojen, I don't think people recognizing Howland would make it impossible. After all, some children look exactly like their parents. My father-in-law, husband, and oldest son look eerily similar. Anyone who knew Howland would be more likely to think that Jojen looks like his father rather than that Jojen IS his father. I agree that it is highly unlikely that Howland would warg his own son, which would certainly be immoral. Ned had such a high opinion of Howland that I assume he'd have to be a better guy than to do something that awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 Yeah, I don't buy the whole warging thing, there's a reason only Bran can do it and that Jojen says it makes him special. I'm not convinced there would be a lot of people (or anyone for that matter) at WF that would know what Howland looks like though. It's been at least 16 years since he was last seen by anyone, and then it would have only been on the battlefield which negates most of the people in WF. I can't think of a single character that would have both seen Howland and Jojen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Whine Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Anyone who knew Howland would be more likely to think that Jojen looks like his father rather than that Jojen IS his father.If it were meant to be revealed later that Jojen is in fact Howland, I think someone would have remarked upon how strikingly similar they seem. Maybe I am relying too much on GRRM's love of foreshadowing, but I have not seen anything in the text other than the "Little Grandfather" comments that support Howland = Jojen. Also, does Jojen ever mention Jon? I would hope that 'Howland' would at least show some interest in contacting Jon, if he in fact carries the secrets of the TOJ.I can't think of a single character that would have both seen Howland and Jojen.Rodrik, Mikken, Old Nan? Maybe others.. I guess we don't know for sure that Howland ever came to Winterfell... but if Ned had called his banners for Robert's Rebellion, I assume Howland would have come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueberry Stark Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 If it were meant to be revealed later that Jojen is in fact Howland, I think someone would have remarked upon how strikingly similar they seem. Maybe I am relying too much on GRRM's love of foreshadowing, but I have not seen anything in the text other than the "Little Grandfather" comments that support Howland = Jojen. Also, does Jojen ever mention Jon? I would hope that 'Howland' would at least show some interest in contacting Jon, if he in fact carries the secrets of the TOJ.Rodrik, Mikken, Old Nan? Maybe others.. I guess we don't know for sure that Howland ever came to Winterfell... but if Ned had called his banners for Robert's Rebellion, I assume Howland would have come.I absolutely agree with you that Howland ISN'T Jojen; I just don't think people would find it strange if they did look exactly alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 That being said... it would not be so ludicrous to think that the Reed's or Crannogmen in general had intermingled their bloodline with the COTF at some point. I mean... inter-species breeding is kinda creepy to begin with, but Tolkien had half elves, so Martin is free to have half-forest spirit gnome things.GRRM already have inter-species sex and possibly breeding mentioned for giants and humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ded As Ned Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Yeah, it's not exactly a new theory. I think the pot is crackked though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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