Balon Greyjoy, the worst strategist ever?

[Northernmonkey]

People who claim that Balon was such a bad tactician seem to ignore the fact that he left the Ironborn in very good shape when he died. Even after the war in the North, they're in a position to attack the reach in large numbers and send the royal fleet halfway across the world.

Had he allied with Robb, it's very likely that he would have suffered a lot worse at the hands of the Lannisters. Like I said, why take the risk? Why criticise Balon when his plan worked perfectly He got his revenge against the Starks, got a bit of loot and didn't have to worry about Tywin. He did well.

[Spartan64Destiny]

People who claim that Balon was such a bad tactician seem to ignore the fact that he left the Ironborn in very good shape when he died. Even after the war in the North, they're in a position to attack the reach in large numbers and send the royal fleet halfway across the world.

Had he allied with Robb, it's very likely that he would have suffered a lot worse at the hands of the Lannisters. Like I said, why take the risk? Why criticise Balon when his plan worked perfectly He got his revenge against the Starks, got a bit of loot and didn't have to worry about Tywin. He did well.

Robb was going to give Balon Greyjoy the richest piece of Land in The Realm. The Iron Born could have not just occupied Casterly Rock, but they could have owned a freaking GOLDMINE........Literally! For the sake of hypothetically speaking, the combine forces of The North and The Iron Islands would have smashed Gregor Clegane's and his cronies to kingdom come!!!!!!!

[The Witch King of Braavos]

'i dont need logic, we're ironborn'

I think that sums up 99.9% of the rather dim-witted race they are.

Tactical he was good. As he predict, Northeners lost while they went to south, but strategically, it was stupid idea. Iron born's power came from sea, north is the biggest region in seven kingdom, there is no way iron borns could hold it in long-term. Westerlands, Riverlands even Reach they can hold it, but not the North. It is too far from sea...

Tactically ; good

Strategically ; bad

Politically ; very stupid

:agree:

[The Frosted King]

People who claim that Balon was such a bad tactician seem to ignore the fact that he left the Ironborn in very good shape when he died. Even after the war in the North, they're in a position to attack the reach in large numbers and send the royal fleet halfway across the world.

Had he allied with Robb, it's very likely that he would have suffered a lot worse at the hands of the Lannisters. Like I said, why take the risk? Why criticise Balon when his plan worked perfectly He got his revenge against the Starks, got a bit of loot and didn't have to worry about Tywin. He did well.

There was no war in the north.

They took two minor castles and burned the capitol.

Thats no war.

They're in good shape because Robb Stark died, and because Balon died and most of their men left for the kingsmoot.

The Lannisters couldn't take care of Balon until they dealt with Stannis and Robb.

Balon hobbling Robb removed the shield he provided.

[Northernmonkey]

Robb was going to give Balon Greyjoy the richest piece of Land in The Realm. The Iron Born could have not just occupied Casterly Rock, but they could have owned a freaking GOLDMINE........Literally! For the sake of hypothetically speaking, the combine forces of The North and The Iron Islands would have smashed Gregor Clegane's and his cronies to kingdom come!!!!!!!

If we're talking hypothetically, the North and the Iron Islands might have smashed the Lannisters (although not neccesarily) but then they'd have Stannis to deal with instead, who's no friend of the Iron Islands. Yes, they might have taken Casterly Rock, but they might have had their fleet destroyed by The Tyrell's, The Lannisters or Stannis. Balon didn't risk it - that doesn't make him a bad tactician.

[Northernmonkey]

There was no war in the north.

They took two minor castles and burned the capitol.

Thats no war.

They're in good shape because Robb Stark died, and because Balon died and most of their men left for the kingsmoot.

The Lannisters couldn't take care of Balon until they dealt with Stannis and Robb.

Balon hobbling Robb removed the shield he provided.

But you accept that they're in good shape. So how can you say Balon made the wrong decision?

[Atropis the Elf]

Balon is not a bad strategist, but a spiteful idiot.

Quoted for justice. Add proud and flippant.

[LordOldNick]

Well, the Iron Islands look in a good shape because you compare them with the North or the Riverlands.

Compare them with the Vale you can see that they are in a bad position: hated by northermen and in clash with the Lannister and especially with the Tyrells who did not suffer almost any loss. When Balon died they were occuping huge areas of the North, it is true, but they were going to be smashed away by Ramsay Snow.

Moreover Balon and the IM didn't help Theon, who actually made the most effetive tactical move in the whole series (IMHO). So he was not even able to understand the importance of having Winterfell, rather than deepwood motte or the rocky shore

[The Frosted King]

But you accept that they're in good shape. So how can you say Balon made the wrong decision?

Because its in spite of Balon's stupidity that they're decent.

Balon died, the majority of his men went home to have a place at the kingsmoot.

Had Balon lived, he likely would've tried to take more of the north, and either Robb, Roose or Tywin would've eventually smashed them and driven the scum back to their rocks.

Only Tywin likely would've sent the Tyrells north to defeat Balon again on his rocks, but this time bring his head back as a warning.

Twice rebelling isn't something to be waved off.

He helped his people more dying, than he ever did in ruling.

[Chaircat Meow]

Well, the Iron Islands look in a good shape because you compare them with the North or the Riverlands.

Compare them with the Vale you can see that they are in a bad position: hated by northermen and in clash with the Lannister and especially with the Tyrells who did not suffer almost any loss. When Balon died they were occuping huge areas of the North, it is true, but they were going to be smashed away by Ramsay Snow.

Moreover Balon and the IM didn't help Theon, who actually made the most effetive tactical move in the whole series (IMHO). So he was not even able to understand the importance of having Winterfell, rather than deepwood motte or the rocky shore

We don't know what Balon thought of that, do we. Asha didn't approve but that might have been sour grapes.

[The Frosted King]

We don't know what Balon thought of that, do we. Asha didn't approve but that might have been sour grapes.

Yet hers is the plan that made the most sense, barring DRAGONS.

Asha proved herself the smartest Greyjoy by a large margin.

[Northernmonkey]

Because its in spite of Balon's stupidity that they're decent.

Balon died, the majority of his men went home to have a place at the kingsmoot.

Had Balon lived, he likely would've tried to take more of the north, and either Robb, Roose or Tywin would've eventually smashed them and driven the scum back to their rocks.

Only Tywin likely would've sent the Tyrells north to defeat Balon again on his rocks, but this time bring his head back as a warning.

Twice rebelling isn't something to be waved off.

He helped his people more dying, than he ever did in ruling.

I don't agree that Balon would have tried to take more of the North, or that the Ironmen would have stuck around to get destroyed by Roose or Tywin. Asha makes it clear to Theon that she knows when its the right time to retreat. This was a small, temporary invasion of the North, in order to get revenge against the Stark's, and it worked. Even if Balon hadn't died, they would have returned soon enough.

As for Tywin going to take Balon's head, he wouldn't even attempt it until he'd dealt with Stannis, Robb, and secured the iron Throne. With the threat of Dany and Aegon as well, I really doubt that going to war with the Iron islands would be high on his list of priorities.

Well, the Iron Islands look in a good shape because you compare them with the North or the Riverlands.

Compare them with the Vale you can see that they are in a bad position: hated by northermen and in clash with the Lannister and especially with the Tyrells who did not suffer almost any loss. When Balon died they were occuping huge areas of the North, it is true, but they were going to be smashed away by Ramsay Snow.

Moreover Balon and the IM didn't help Theon, who actually made the most effetive tactical move in the whole series (IMHO). So he was not even able to understand the importance of having Winterfell, rather than deepwood motte or the rocky shore

You don't have to compare them with anyone to see that they're in good shape. They've got two massive fleets: one to attack the reach and one to send to Meereen. And the North aren't much of a threat because their only port is at White Harbour, on the wrong side of Westeros.

I should point out that I don't think it was the best decision to invade the North. It would have been much smarter to do nothing and stay out of the war completely, but it didn't actually do much harm. Of all the options available to him, allying with Robb was the worst one. Balon knew how clever Tywin was, and he knew that he was likely to come out on top in the battle with Robb. And he was proved right.

[The Frosted King]

I don't agree that Balon would have tried to take more of the North, or that the Ironmen would have stuck around to get destroyed by Roose or Tywin. Asha makes it clear to Theon that she knows when its the right time to retreat. This was a small, temporary invasion of the North, in order to get revenge against the Stark's, and it worked. Even if Balon hadn't died, they would have returned soon enough.

As for Tywin going to take Balon's head, he wouldn't even attempt it until he'd dealt with Stannis, Robb, and secured the iron Throne. With the threat of Dany and Aegon as well, I really doubt that going to war with the Iron islands would be high on his list of priorities.

You don't have to compare them with anyone to see that they're in good shape. They've got two massive fleets: one to attack the reach and one to send to Meereen. And the North aren't much of a threat because their only port is at White Harbour, on the wrong side of Westeros.

I should point out that I don't think it was the best decision to invade the North. It would have been much smarter to do nothing and stay out of the war completely, but it didn't actually do much harm. Of all the options available to him, allying with Robb was the worst one. Balon knew how clever Tywin was, and he knew that he was likely to come out on top in the battle with Robb. And he was proved right.

Whether you agree or not, his stated plans and subsequent actions support the theory that he was in fact, planning on "conquering" the north.

And you're making my point for me. As long as Robb was strong, Balon was strong in his shadow.

The ironborn have lasted as long as they have because they're small fish.

Them daggering Robb removes a larger fish, and throws the spotlight on them. Its only because new large fish enter the waters that saves them from being dealt with.

What happens when they've helped one big fish devour the other big fish? They get eaten too.

The small fish eat well when the big fish battle it out. You help one particular biggie get the upperhand though, and you hasten your own demise.

And Balon was right because his actions helped make it so.

Him daggering Robb hamstrung his campaign in the west.

Up to that point, it was gloom for the Lannisters. Stannis and Renly marching, Robb gutting the west.

Balon gave the Lannisters the respite they sorely needed.

[Northernmonkey]

Whether you agree or not, his stated plans and subsequent actions support the theory that he was in fact, planning on "conquering" the north.

it's been a while since i read ACOK, and I might be wrong, but I doubt that Balon realistically expected to permanently conquer the North. Or if he did, I don't think he'd try and hold it against the Lannisters and Tyrells. Asha certainly didn't give the impression that they were there to stay. But I might be wrong.

I'm not sure what else there is to say, but I'll repeat that allying with Robb would have been stupid. Balon knew how dangerous it was to go against Tywin Lannister. Considering that he subsequently went on to defeat both Robb and Stannis, I'd say he was right.

[LordOldNick]

it's been a while since i read ACOK, and I might be wrong, but I doubt that Balon realistically expected to permanently conquer the North. Or if he did, I don't think he'd try and hold it against the Lannisters and Tyrells. Asha certainly didn't give the impression that they were there to stay. But I might be wrong.

I'm not sure what else there is to say, but I'll repeat that allying with Robb would have been stupid. Balon knew how dangerous it was to go against Tywin Lannister. Considering that he subsequently went on to defeat both Robb and Stannis, I'd say he was right.

IMHO the invasion was pretty permanet. Because they "stayed". A vengace could have been to attack the north, pillage and steal what you can, but he conquered castles and let garrisons there. That's not a typicall raider, it's more "here we came and here we stand" and they do not launch any further raid or attack.

Unfortunately I do not have the books with me, but in ADWD it seems that the other place in the North were not afraid of being invaded: Umber's lands had no man, the Karstark were divided, and the mountains clans were so confident to massively follow Stannis

[Northernmonkey]

One more thing, wouldn't Balon allying with Robb just hand the Iron Throne to Stannis? Presumably with the Lannisters and Tyrells weakened then Stannis could have won the battle of Blackwater. And things for Balon would be even worse with Stannis as king. He's the one person who would never allow any part of his kingdom to secede.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb was going to give Balon Greyjoy the richest piece of Land in The Realm. The Iron Born could have not just occupied Casterly Rock, but they could have owned a freaking GOLDMINE

I think you and a lot of posters are overestimating what Robb Stark has the power to give. The Westernlands and Casterly Rock are not Robbs to give.

Read the Theon chapter in which he tell Balon this plan, Balon states that he'd never be able to take the Rock, and at best they could only briefly hold on to Lannisport. He knows it's a futile plan and the only people who think it is possible are a couple of teenage lads. Who is likely to be the more informed on this matter Balon or Theon?

[Humble Maester]

From political point of view, if we assume that the end-game for the Ironborn is independence, and thus status quo situation, which otherwise could also be alright, is not on the table then attacking the North was utterly idiotic.

Considering the well known maxim of "enemy of an enemy is a friend", the Ironborn should had quite obviously tried to further destabilize the Iron Throne, which was the actor most opposed to their independence, but instead attacked their natural ally. It is quite obvious that the Ironborn are screwed now, in the long run, as soon as the central government gets its shit together.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

From political point of view, if we assume that the end-game for the Ironborn is independence, and thus status quo situation, which otherwise could also be alright, is not on the table then attacking the North was utterly idiotic.

Asha is quite clear that the Ironborn need more land. Balon is the one who initiates negotiations with Tywin. I think once their territory had increased they would of submitted to the Iron Throne rather than lose the spoils they got from the North.

[Chaircat Meow]

Robb was going to give Balon Greyjoy the richest piece of Land in The Realm. The Iron Born could have not just occupied Casterly Rock, but they could have owned a freaking GOLDMINE........Literally! For the sake of hypothetically speaking, the combine forces of The North and The Iron Islands would have smashed Gregor Clegane's and his cronies to kingdom come!!!!!!!

Robb didn't promise Balon any land, and he didn't say he thought Balon could take CR. Only Theon thought that, and he was very clearly over enthusiastic.