What if after the Rebellion, the Targaryens were allowed to keep the throne?

[Aleksandar]

Except for the Dagon GreyJoy Rebellion, the two falied conquests of Dorne they started, the enormous Civil war caused by the King: the BlackFyre rebellion, the Dance of Dragons, the NinePenny kings, Defiance of Duskendale, the Rebellion of Skagos (and that's just off the top of my head.)

The Faith Militant were only an issue because the Targaryans practised incest. Generally the Faith Militant would have protected the common man.

Yeah the First Night law was good, but it was hundreds of years ago. It doesn't make up for Aerys burn everyone who defies me attitude. Imagine a dictatorship, the father was a nice guy but his son and successor is a mad bastard, are you meant to just allow him to rule because his father was alright?

Belon Greyjoy was a separatist...he proclaimed himself king conquered north and his hair(Euron) is still king....

Dagon Greyjoy was pirate who raped and enslaved people while storming west coast......you can hardly blame Targaryans for that......You can't blame Belon why should he kneel to Storm king...

As i said earlier there was endless war between Dorna Stormlands and Reach for centuries(1000times more people died during that time then in the time of Young Dragon) and as you said after two failed conquests even Dorna got to it's senses and became part of 7k.....

NinePenny kings happen on Stepstones and Disputed lands.....Group of pirates and slave masters gather around Myach the Monstruos and try to invade westers....Aegon V stopped them.....

Defiance of Duscendale...you can hardly blame Aerys for that.....a stupid lord didn't want to pay taxes so he killed tax collectors.....Because of his crime king ordered his death and went personally their.....and idiot lord got even stupider....so he imprisoned a king..LOL ....how idiotic you have to be to do that......

Do you even have any idea where is Skahgos.....Some Skagosi decided they want to eat people and rebelled......Their liege lord acted arcordinatlly and ended the rebellion who was stark and also WARDEN of the north.....thet's it why he is warden....to keep king's peace.....

One of the greatist things i think Targaryans did is END Faith Milithant......As i said they killed more people in a year then Aerys in life time....Just Loook at Bloody Marry and you will know what is Church Inquisition(faith Militant in martins world) capable of.

All in all there were only two great wars Targaryans are responsable DwD and BR......only 2 in 300 years!

My point Targaryans were rightful rulers of 7k....Barathions are nothing more then usurpers...you can't judge whole dynasty because of one mad man......Meagor is probably other but he was very succesfull ruler...cruel maybe but still he ended Faith Militant so i'd say he is better then Tomen Barathion.

[Knight Of Winter]

There was a question from Jon's Queen Consort:

And i answered....

JQC's first question was: why (should Targs keep ruling after WOT5K)?

You answered by listing virtues and accomplishments of past Targs.

I explained why I find your reasoning faulty (your arguments favour unified kingdom per se, not Targaryens) and asked you if you think that accomplishments of past Targs should mean they have eternal right to rule?

[The BlackBear]

I was mainly arguing against you saying the Targs brought peace. When they only brought a reletive level of peace.

Belon Greyjoy was a separatist...he proclaimed himself king conquered north and his hair(Euron) is still king....
Dagon Greyjoy was pirate who raped and enslaved people while storming west coast......you can hardly blame Targaryans for that......You can't blame Belon why should he kneel to Storm king...

I didn't mention Balon because he didn't rebel when the Targs were in power. I'm interested in how you seem to think Balon is more honourable than Dagon though. Balon would have enslaved and raped too, that's the Ironborn way. Dagon took advantage of a weakened state post Blackfyre, Balon took advantage of weakened state post Roberts Rebellion, and again during the Wo5K. Balon didn't care about who was on the throne he just wanted to return the Islands to their former rapey piraty glory, just like Dagon.

As i said earlier there was endless war between Dorna Stormlands and Reach for centuries(1000times more people died during that time then in the time of Young Dragon) and as you said after two failed conquests even Dorna got to it's senses and became part of 7k.....

The young dragon achieved precisely nothing, he marched his armies around Dorne, made himself look important, and then left. Within a few years they were fighting again. All the men he took and died, died pointlessly. It took that long for the Targs to relaise they couldn't achieve Dorne without marriage, it wasn't the Dornish coming the their senses it was the Targs coming to theirs.

How many people did Aegon kill to take the seven kingdoms, the Field of Fire the greatest host ever before assembled burnt, that's not a slight blot on their record?

NinePenny kings happen on Stepstones and Disputed lands.....Group of pirates and slave masters gather around Myach the Monstruos and try to invade westers....Aegon V stopped them.....

This war is their fault, it was an offshoot of the Blackfyre rebellion, of which there were a couple more after the big one.

All in all there were only two great wars Targaryans are responsable DwD and BR......only 2 in 300 years!

My point Targaryans were rightful rulers of 7k....Barathions are nothing more then usurpers...you can't judge whole dynasty because of one mad man......Meagor is probably other but he was very succesfull ruler...cruel maybe but still he ended Faith Militant so i'd say he is better then Tomen Barathion.

Those are still two more wars than the Peace you said they brought.

And as for the rightful ruler thing :lol: The Kings of Winter with their 8000 years of heritage weren't the rightful kings of the North when Aegon took their crown? The Reach wasn't, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, the Iron Islands who you preached so highly about independence?

I'm not judging the whole dynasty by Aerys, but I'm also not forgiving him because of the dynasty. I also don't think the kids would have grown up thinking overly fondly of the rebels had they been allowed to keep the throne: Imagine growing up raised by the man who killed your family, but it's ok because they were bad people. I'd still want revenge and so would they, it'd just be postponing another civil war.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You haven't aswered but anyway

They brought peace to westeros

Ok we are not reading the same series.

[Aleksandar]

JQC's first question was: why (should Targs keep ruling after WOT5K)?

You answered by listing virtues and accomplishments of past Targs.

I explained why I find your reasoning faulty (your arguments favour unified kingdom per se, not Targaryens) and asked you if you think that accomplishments of past Targs should mean they have eternal right to rule?

Of course not...

I just think you can't judge entire dynasty because of one mad man .....

The topic was what if Targaryans were allowed to keep IT......I think it would be better.......They should had Great Concul like in Egg's time......Of course Hoster Tully was power hungry,Jon Aeryn got his only hair his nephew killed,and Ned was more fond of Robert then his brother who was also killled....They were blinded by power,revange or loyalty they were short minded and didn't think what would happen whit next generations

[TheCrannogDweller]

And as for the rightful ruler thing :lol: The Kings of Winter with their 8000 years of heritage weren't the rightful kings of the North when Aegon took their crown? The Reach wasn't, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, the Iron Islands who you preached so highly about independence?

The Starks still ruled over the North; the Lannisters - over the West; The Arryns - over the Vale and so forth.

Aegon didn't usurp their crowns, not did he take their lands. He installed himself above them, created the institution of the Iron Throne and made the former kings swear fealty to him and pay taxes to the Crown.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Of course not...

I just think you can't judge entire dynasty because of one mad man .....

The topic was what if Targaryans were allowed to keep IT......I think it would be better.......They should had Great Concul like in Egg's time......Of course Hoster Tully was power hungry,Jon Aeryn got his only hair his nephew killed,and Ned was more fond of Robert then his brother who was also killled....They were blinded by power,revange or loyalty they were short minded and didn't think what would happen whit next generations

Now I am sure that you are just trolling.

edit: Or maybe you are not since you had said before that Aerys hadn't abuse his wife,

Can some one please PLEASE tell me where in books is suggested that Aerys raped or abused,beaten or something like that his wife queen Rhaella....

I don't understand what is the problem whit u people....

Yes he was mad....he didn't abused his children nor his wife....after 5 books u think writer would mention something like that if it happen.....

so we may read different books after all.

[The BlackBear]

The Starks still ruled over the North; the Lannisters - over the West; The Arryns - over the Vale and so forth.

Aegon didn't usurp their crowns, not did he take their lands. He installed himself above them, created the institution of the Iron Throne and made the former kings swear fealty to him and pay taxes to the Crown.

Taking the absolute autonomy, right to call themselves kings and demanding they pay taxes to them with no provocation is effectively taking their crowns yes they were still ruling their lands but in someone elses name. Aegon figurative took the crowns and made them into one for himself. He clearly didn't give two shits about the heritage of the houses so why should anyone about the Targs?

[TheCrannogDweller]

Taking the absolute autonomy, right to call themselves kings and demanding they pay taxes to them with no provocation is effectively taking their crowns yes they were still ruling their lands but in someone elses name. Aegon figurative took the crowns and made them into one for himself. He clearly didn't give two shits about the heritage of the houses so why should anyone about the Targs?

The fact that he let them rule, but curbed their belligerence by subduing them and making them bow to a higher authority means that he did care about heritage - as opposed to killing them and installing puppet regimes in their place or taking their lands for himself.

Even Stark loyalists must see that the North didn't fare worse under Targaryen rule, than it did under the Kings of Winter.

[Aleksandar]

I was mainly arguing against you saying the Targs brought peace. When they only brought a reletive level of peace.

I didn't mention Balon because he didn't rebel when the Targs were in power. I'm interested in how you seem to think Balon is more honourable than Dagon though. Balon would have enslaved and raped too, that's the Ironborn way. Dagon took advantage of a weakened state post Blackfyre, Balon took advantage of weakened state post Roberts Rebellion, and again during the Wo5K. Balon didn't care about who was on the throne he just wanted to return the Islands to their former rapey piraty glory, just like Dagon.

The young dragon achieved precisely nothing, he marched his armies around Dorne, made himself look important, and then left. Within a few years they were fighting again. All the men he took and died, died pointlessly. It took that long for the Targs to relaise they couldn't achieve Dorne without marriage, it wasn't the Dornish coming the their senses it was the Targs coming to theirs.

How many people did Aegon kill to take the seven kingdoms, the Field of Fire the greatest host ever before assembled burnt, that's not a slight blot on their record?

This war is their fault, it was an offshoot of the Blackfyre rebellion, of which there were a couple more after the big one.

Those are still two more wars than the Peace you said they brought.

And as for the rightful ruler thing :lol: The Kings of Winter with their 8000 years of heritage weren't the rightful kings of the North when Aegon took their crown? The Reach wasn't, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, the Iron Islands who you preached so highly about independence?

I'm not judging the whole dynasty by Aerys, but I'm also not forgiving him because of the dynasty. I also don't think the kids would have grown up thinking overly fondly of the rebels had they been allowed to keep the throne: Imagine growing up raised by the man who killed your family, but it's ok because they were bad people. I'd still want revenge and so would they, it'd just be postponing another civil war.

Balon never enslaved people.....his brother Vicarion in his chapters i think in tWoW chapter seas that that's not iron man way when he is freeing slaves from the ships he took......And there were no incidents of rape that went unpunished....Asha treated her prisoners well...and Theon punished his solder in winterfall for rape,,,,,,And they are their father\s children.....In Dunk and Egg tales you can read how brutal was Dagon he was even worst then Euron.

And about taking advantage he could take advantage on the lanisters....he could had Castarly rock and Lanisport if he was smarter.....He didn't want to take adwantage he wanted revenge.....he was stupid........And of all families a mostly dislike Greyjoys a hardly manage to read affc so probably i'm not the best person to write about them....Only enjoyable chapters are Theons.....

Huh....It was the first time some1 conquered Dorna.....since Rhoynars came it was them invading Reach and Stormlands....it was the first time fighting was so deep into Dorna's lands.....If it was that easliy don't you think someone from earlier generations would propose marriage.....Or maybe first time faced whit allmost being wiped out they accepted marriage alliance to join 7k so that even they can live better

On field of fire there were 4000 man killed or should i say burned by dragons...and there was few hundred killed in Harenhall.....and few 1000;s whit fight whit Argilic the Arogant...those were total casultis doring the conquest.......Tywan killed at least 3 times that number when he sacked KL.....RObert killed 5 times that number on the triand......

Two wars in 300 years i would say that is pretty good....In medivel europe you had wars every month......

Yea that's why Aegon is a conqueror.......Dragon is like Napoleon Bonaparta one of my most interesting and favorite historical character who was true and undisputed ruler of Europe

[The BlackBear]

Balon never enslaved people.....his brother Vicarion in his chapters i think in tWoW chapter seas that that's not iron man way when he is freeing slaves from the ships he took

I have to go to a pub quiz so can't fully respond to the post but This bit. You must be trolling or dumb becuas that chapter is about the Irony of Victarion 'freeing' people but still making them row for his fleet. They're still effectively slaves.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I have to go to a pub quiz so can't fully respond to the post but This bit. You must be trolling or dumb becuas that chapter is about the Irony of Victarion 'freeing' people but still making them row for his fleet. They're still effectively slaves.

What is pub quiz? I have see it before but I don't know what it is.

[Aleksandar]

You haven't aswered but anyway

Ok we are not reading the same series.

The only question that you asked was "Why? What the Targs have done for the people?"

And i responded.....is there i don't know wich question you think of.....can you give me a quote i can't find it.

Now I am sure that you are just trolling.

edit: Or maybe you are not since you had said before that Aerys hadn't abuse his wife,

so we may read different books after all.

As i said in many of other quotes A Feast for the Crows is my least favorite book,,,,,,I bearly manage to read it whole..i skipped some chapter....The only interesting were form THeon and Ariana...and also Cersei and Sansa......

I complitly missed that part....SO sorry for my quote

I

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The only question that you asked was "Why? What the Targs have done for the people?"

And i responded.....is there i don't know wich question you think of.....can you give me a quote i can't find it.

As i said in many of other quotes A Feast for the Crows is my least favorite book,,,,,,I bearly manage to read it whole..i skipped some chapter....The only interesting were form THeon and Ariana...and also Cersei and Sansa......

I complitly missed that part....SO sorry for my quote

I

No there are two different questions Why? and What the Targs have done for the people?

Or Ned and Robert should send their heads as a gift to Aerys for being such a good king?

I had found it quite funny so I remembered that quote.

[Aleksandar]

I have to go to a pub quiz so can't fully respond to the post but This bit. You must be trolling or dumb becuas that chapter is about the Irony of Victarion 'freeing' people but still making them row for his fleet. They're still effectively slaves.

Ok i watched about year ago clip from youtube GRRM reading VIcarion chapter form tWoW....and as i recall he think's something like slavery is not Ironman way or something like that......He offers them to serve in Iron fleet.....and he frees them......as i recall.....I'm pretty sure he frees them.....English is not my first language so maybe i missed something because there is no translation...

And sorry i forgot to put this about earlier quote

Robert was blinded whit anger lust for revenge....he hated Targaryans.....even 14 years after he hated them even more so yes he was blinded.....

Hoster married his daughters for Rebels....or should i say demanded....he married his Lisa to a man who was 3 times her age....He didn't join rebels because of moral but because he wanted god marriages for his daughters......So yes he was blinded he had lust for power

And as Ned in his chapters seas he was more fond of Robert then his brother so yea even after 14 years he was blinded by loyalty to Robert to not see how bad king he was

[TheCrannogDweller]

<snip>

Sorry, but you're wrong.

For one thing, while the Ironborn had no slavery, they did keep thralls - which is pretty much the same thing. Although, if you look into their culture, you'll see that it is actually very egalitarian - they believe each captain is the king of his own ship and hold kingsmoots to pick their kings when there is a succession dispute. So they were a sort of piraty Atheneans.

While you're right that there weren't that many casualties during the conquest, there were definitely more than 3 wars during the Dragons' rule - even though the Dance and the Blackfyre rebellion were technically dynastyc crises.

Robert didn't kill 20 000 people on the Trident and you might also want to brush up your knowledge about the failed conquest of Dorne. By the time the Dornish drowned Daeron I' attempt to rule them in blood, King Baelor had to basically beg them for peace and for the return of his cousin, Aemon the Dragonknight.

[Aleksandar]

Well no wonder why i;m losing this argument you have over 6000 posts congratulate mate......I really envy you......

[The BlackBear]

Ok i watched about year ago clip from youtube GRRM reading VIcarion chapter form tWoW....and as i recall he think's something like slavery is not Ironman way or something like that......He offers them to serve in Iron fleet.....and he frees them......as i recall.....I'm pretty sure he frees them.....English is not my first language so maybe i missed something because there is no translation...

And sorry i forgot to put this about earlier quote

Robert was blinded whit anger lust for revenge....he hated Targaryans.....even 14 years after he hated them even more so yes he was blinded.....

Hoster married his daughters for Rebels....or should i say demanded....he married his Lisa to a man who was 3 times her age....He didn't join rebels because of moral but because he wanted god marriages for his daughters......So yes he was blinded he had lust for power

And as Ned in his chapters seas he was more fond of Robert then his brother so yea even after 14 years he was blinded by loyalty to Robert to not see how bad king he was

On the Ironborn thing, Victarion doesn't agree with selling slaves. But he does keep thralls, and forces the aforementioned slaves to row for him.

I see no differences between the rebels 'lust for power' as you put it, (which ignores the fact Aerys had demanded both Ned and Roberts heads, the Jon Arryns because he loyal to his boys) and the Targaryan conquest, and their attempted conquests of Dorne.

Robert wanted revenge: from his point of view the only woman he loved had been stolen and then the king had demanded his and his friends heads, as far as reasons for rebelling go these aren't bad.

Hoster played it smart, he didn't join a risky rebellion without making sure he had certain assurances from marriage, this is no different from any other Westeros house.

Ned saw just how bad a king Robert was, but this doesn't mean the Targs would have been that much better (I personally believe a war would still have broken out) or that it was realistically that feasible (I don't think it was. why would the nobles accept a defeated monarch for one? You need to respect your king.)

What is pub quiz? I have see it before but I don't know what it is.

Literally what it sounds like, you go to a Pub (British word for Bar, but much more classy :lol: ) and you form into teams and answer general knowledge questions and maybe win a prize.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Literally what it sounds like, you go to a Pub (British word for Bar, but much more classy :lol: ) and you form into teams and answer general knowledge questions and maybe win a prize.

That sounds like fun! We have pubs here but no pub quiz.