Targ family tree (nitpickers welcome!)

[William The Lion]

First of all, thanks for a terrific work. I have a few minor comments, mostly about dragonseed and their possible parentage. Also about the laws os succession, and some things which George left unsaid.

After reading "The Princess and the Queen", and some hints here and there, here is what I think happened (chronologically) before and during the Dance of the Dragons.

1. Jaehaerys and Alysanne had two sons who made to adulthood - 1 (older) - Aemon (m. Jocelyn Baratheon); 2 (younger) - Baelon

2. Aemon's daughter Rhaenys "The Queen who never Was" was the only successor of her father, hence the successor of the oldest branch of Jaehaerys.

3. Baelon had two sons - Viserys and Daemon.

4. By 92AL Aemon died, and the Council and the King had to decide between the successor from the oldest branch (Raenys, female) and her uncle Baelon (male, but from a younger branch). Baelon won.

5. Rhaenys married Lord Corlys "The Sea Snake" Velaryon and had daughter Laena (the oldest) and son Laenor (the youngest). May be twins, but Laena an older twin.

6. Unfortunately by 101 AL Baelon, the successor apparent of Old King Jaehaerys, also died. Jaehaerys was still alive, and had to summon a council to choose among his grandchildren, and their children. The main contenders were:

Rhaenys (granddaughter from the older branch), Viserys (grandson from the younger branch). The lesser contenders were Daemon (inferior to his older brother Viserys), and children of Rhaenys - Laena and Laenor. Rhaenys probably argued (similar to Isabella of France for her son Edward III in 1328) that if she cannot be the Queen, than she has a right to transfer her inheritance to her children - either her oldest offspring (which happened to be her daughter Laena) or her oldest son Laenor. Rhaenys lost again, this time to Viserys.

7. Viserys became king after his grandfather Jaehaerys, but happened to have only his daughter Rhaenyra living to adulthood. That created a very difficult situation for Viserys. If the logic of the previous Councli decisions is uphed, than the next in line of succession would be his younger brother Daemon. That is not what Viserys wanted, and it is likely that Rhaenys was largerly unhappy with the results of two past elections. Fortunately for Viserys, his brother Daemon was more of a "hero" type than of a "ruler" type (from his description in the book, he stroke me more of an adventurer / hero in type of Oberyn Martell of Jaime Lannister, rather than career orientated throne hunter), adventuring in Essos and becoming a freind of Pentos in its wars against a "triple crown" of Myr / Lys / Tirosh.

8. Viserys offered a Grand Bargain to all interested sides - to Rhaenys a marriage of her son Laenor to the King's heir Rhaenyra, and to Daemon a marriage to Rhaenys' daughter Laena. That lead to a largerly non-competed decision of teh Council to proclaim Rhaenyra the King's heiress (and Laenor as her consort).

8. Both Laenor and Daemon (and possibly Rhaenyra) were notorious for their sexual escapades, although that opinion is presented by extremely biased Sir Cristone Cole (who had been spurred by Rhaenyra in favor of Laenor) and the rest of teh Hightower fraction. However, it appears to me as higly possible that Laenor is the father of Addam and Alyn (Addam was able to ride Laenor's dragon, and had complete support of his grandfather Sea Snake and his half-brother Jacaerys). Nettles is probably a daughter of Daemon from some Dotraki woman he found during his adventures in Essos.

9. The Grand Bargain was thrown out of the window after the King remarried and produced 3 sons from his second Hightower wife. At the same time Laenor ande Laena died, leaving 3 legitimate sons (Laenor) and 2 daughters (Laena). THeir respective spouses, Rahenyra and her uncle Daemon, married each other (with two sons and one stillborn daughter). Viserys did not want to reconsider his succession in spite of pleadings of his second wife and her Hightower relatives, and with Sir Criston Cole's desire for revenge againt Rhaenyra the Black and the Green factions had little desire for compromise (although more politically savvy opponents such as Sea Snake urged compromise and peace talks).

Your thoughts?

Maester Aemon is dead, so shouldn't his box be shaded? And maybe shade half of the box for Robert's bastards as many are dead?

And all the Velaryons probably have Targ blood.
tPatQ:

Alyn (who you have already as a lover to Elaena) and his brother (dragonrider)

Addam were probably bastard sons of Corlys, as he named them "true heirs" worthy of Driftmark. And Addam being a drgonrider makes it likely that he (and then Corlys too) had Targ blood.

Ulf the White and maybe Hugh Hammer also were probably Targ bastards, or maybe the sons of Targ bastards

And then the current Velaryons:
Monford Velaryon (dead), his son Monterys, and Aurane Waters

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sounds good!

Here's your changes.

I'd like to know how the Arryn wife of Viserys I got her Targ ancestry. Parent? Grandparent? Great-grandparent?

Okay, that makes sense. So she must have been alive during the war.

I agree with you that it's likely Doran's father isn't the "consort". Maybe he's dead at the time, but nothing we have indicates he was a Martell anyways.

Their father wasn't a Martell. Their mother was. As the heir of her house, and ruling princess of Dorne, she stayed a Martell upon marrying, and her children became Martells as well.

[tsunad]

Your thoughts?

I think your assumption on the Targaryen family tree at the time of the Great Councils are likely to be correct. But I'm not going to put it down in the tree, since I could see alternative scenarios - more complicated, of course, but it may be a more complicated tree.

The dragon riders could be almost anyone's bastards though. We don't have a good enough view of the Velaryon family tree, nor the Targaryen family tree from that time. We know of intermarriages with other houses that happened before that point - Aegon the Conqueror's bastard brother married into the old storm king's lineage, someone married into the Arryns before the Dance, and we have Targaryens marrying both into Velaryons (Rhaenyra) and from Velaryons (Daemon). Actually, let me make a new post on the Velaryon subject in this thread...

[tsunad]

*sigh*

Been trying to make the Velaryon tree at around P&Q, and running into trouble:

1. Elaena, daughter of Aegon III, had several bastard children with her cousin, Alyn Velaryon.

2. Aegon III's mother was half Targ, and half Arryn with Targ descent.

3. Aegon III's father was half Targ, and half ???

We have only two surviving male Velaryons that we know of, and one's iffy. Corlys may be alive, but he's described as a man clinging to life, and that was before his imprisonment. Alyn Velaryon is the brother of the (deceased) Addam Velaryon, who is legitimized as Corlys's heir. Alyn would presumably be the heir to Addam, but both were legitimized by Rhaenyra. Aegon II probably wouldn't recognize that. Aegon III probably would.

So say for the sake of argument, Alyn Velaryon is considered the legitimate heir of Corlys. Corlys dies sometime around the beginning of Aegon III's reign, or the end of Aegon II's reign.

If Alyn is Laenor's bastard, he'd be Elaenor's third cousin! It would be like describing Rhaegar's son Aegon as the cousin of Shireen.

But time has marched on between the civil war and Elaena's love affair. Other Velaryons can be born. Aegon III could have married a Velaryon after marrying a daughter of Aegon II (the wiki claims as much, but cites the Blood of Dragons mush, *sigh*).

Okay, right? However, at the conclusion of the civil war, we have no Velaryon brides. Daemon's children are Targaryens. There's literally no surviving female Velaryons that we know of.

So say Alyn marries around 131 AL. Alyn is young, he's the Lord of Driftmark (or near enough), and there's a need for more heirs, plus building up alliances after the civil war would probably be important. He'll marry ASAP.

His daughter would be just barely old enough to be a second wife to Aegon III and give birth the a few children, including Elaenor.

While his son could have another son, named Alyn after his grandfather. *That* Alyn has the affair with Elaena's

That *works*, but it requires people marrying young.

Thoughts?

(I think I need to make another chart...)

[lojzelote]

Perhaps there was a little Velaryon girl at the time (from Corlys' already dead brother or nephew, or something like that), but Corlys had become so fond of Alyn he decided to give the lordship to him instead? If he was sure that Alyn had Velaryon blood and Rhaenyra agreed with his suggestion, why not?

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

I don't think we know enough to make a tree for the Velaryons. I suspect that they all have Targaryen blood (maybe even this is how the Arryns have Targ blood), but we don't have proof.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

*sigh*

Been trying to make the Velaryon tree at around P&Q, and running into trouble:

1. Elaena, daughter of Aegon III, had several bastard children with her cousin, Alyn Velaryon.

2. Aegon III's mother was half Targ, and half Arryn with Targ descent.

3. Aegon III's father was half Targ, and half ???

1. Elaena, daughter of Aegon III, had two children with her cousin Alyn Velaryon: Jon and Jeyne Waters. Through Jon, the line Longwaters came to be (Rennifer still resides around the Red Keep in 299 AC).

2. Aegon III's mother, Rhaenyra, was a Targaryen on her fathers side, and an Arryn from her mothers side. Rhaenyra's mother had Targaryen blood, though it is unknown when a Targaryen married an Arryn. The possibilities that exist now are that either it were sisters of Aenys I (he had 1 or 2 sisters of whom we don't know who they married), or it was a daughter of Aenys (might be Rhaena, might be that there was another one; Aenys had one daughter who married Maegor, one daughter who married his son (Alysanne and Jaehaerys) and Rhaena; Rhaena might have been the daughter who married Maegor, it is unknown whether there were 2 daughters or 3).

3. Aegon III's father was a Targaryen. Daemon Targaryen, brother to King Viserys I. Daemon's father was a Targaryen as well (hence the last name), though his mother remains unknown for the moment.

We have only two surviving male Velaryons that we know of, and one's iffy. Corlys may be alive, but he's described as a man clinging to life, and that was before his imprisonment. Alyn Velaryon is the brother of the (deceased) Addam Velaryon, who is legitimized as Corlys's heir. Alyn would presumably be the heir to Addam, but both were legitimized by Rhaenyra. Aegon II probably wouldn't recognize that. Aegon III probably would.

So say for the sake of argument, Alyn Velaryon is considered the legitimate heir of Corlys. Corlys dies sometime around the beginning of Aegon III's reign, or the end of Aegon II's reign.

The only two living Velaryons at the end of tPatQ are indeed Corlys and Alyn, though Corlys' imprisonment doesn't seem to be doing his health any good. Corlys is 56 at the very least, though most likely older. Corlys isn't in the MUSH, so we don't know if he actually dies during the Dance, though it is likely, since I doubt Rhaenyra freed him before fleeing, and Aegon II would most likely kill him upon retaking KL.

And seeing as how Alyn later becomes the Lord to the Driftmark, I'd say we can be certain he's Corlys' only heir.

If Alyn is Laenor's bastard, he'd be Elaenor's third cousin! It would be like describing Rhaegar's son Aegon as the cousin of Shireen.

Yes, he would be. But keep in mind that Aegon V describes Bloodraven as his cousin, while Bloodraven is in fact his grandfather's halfbrother.

But time has marched on between the civil war and Elaena's love affair. Other Velaryons can be born. Aegon III could have married a Velaryon after marrying a daughter of Aegon II (the wiki claims as much, but cites the Blood of Dragons mush, *sigh*).

Yes, other Velaryons can have been born. But they would all descend from Alyn, since, as you've stated above (and I agree with :) ), Alyn was the only Velaryon left besides Corlys, who, with an heir by his side, wouldn't need to remarry and get himself some more children (if he even survives the Dance).

Aegon III marries Jaehaera after the Dance. Jaehaera is the only daughter of Aegon II. In the very first draft of things, Aegon III then married a Velaryon, after Jaehaera dies, and has at least 5 children with her. Ran has hinted, however, that there might not be a Velaryon bride anymore. I admit I have been obsesing about this ever since I received tPatQ notes about a month before it's release.

Okay, right? However, at the conclusion of the civil war, we have no Velaryon brides. Daemon's children are Targaryens. There's literally no surviving female Velaryons that we know of.

Yes.

So say Alyn marries around 131 AL. Alyn is young, he's the Lord of Driftmark (or near enough), and there's a need for more heirs, plus building up alliances after the civil war would probably be important. He'll marry ASAP.

His daughter would be just barely old enough to be a second wife to Aegon III and give birth the a few children, including Elaenor.

Yes on the first two sentences!

A potential daughter of Alyn (born in 132 AC at the earliest moment), would be 10 years old in 142 AC, the last possible moment a marriage with Aegon III could take place, since Daeron I was born in 143 AC. At 10, you're not capable of having a child yet. And no one would marry a 10 year old to a full grown man and expect her to get pregnant immediately. Since Aegon III have been king without heirs (save his own brother) for 11 years, Aegon III would marry someone who was certainly of the right age to get married.

(and Elaenor... you pobably meant Elaena :) )

While his son could have another son, named Alyn after his grandfather. *That* Alyn has the affair with Elaena's

Ran has confirmed that Alyn of Hull, later Alyn Velaryon, and Elaena's Alyn are the same person. And that would make Alyn 35 years older than Elaena.

Which makes sense. Elaena married trice, and the third time was for love. Yet Jon and Jeyne remained bastards, and they would most certainly have been made legit had their parents married later on. Reason? Alyn was death at that point in time. Simply because he was already about 55 when Elaena was released from the Maiden Vault. Her third marriage would have been some few years later.

That *works*, but it requires people marrying young.

After a war, with only young lords left to take over from their (grand)fathers, marrying young is rather logical.

I had an idea which might work, which evolves around Addam as much as Alyn. If Addam had a daughter before his death (he was 15 when he died, old enough to have gotten someone pregnant), this girl would be about 13 years old when Aegon III needs a remarriage at the latest. Though still very young, it's possible, and it would make Aegon's children cousins of Alyn.

Though I must admit it would be rather weird for a king to marry the child of a bastard, even though the bastard has been made legit. There is no mentioning of Addam having been married (only Addam and Alyn are legitimized), so Addam probably wasn't. Any child he might have had would most likely have been a bastard itself.

I'd say, look at Ran's hinting (I'll go search the quote for you tomorrow). There probably wasn't a Velaryon bride anymore. Though someone suggested an interesting replacement for the Velaryon bride. There are still Baela (though I don't see her survival chances being very high) and Rhaena (who's chances of survival of the Dance seem rather good up until now) Targaryen, daughters of not only Daemon Targaryen, but of Laena Velaryon. So perhaps GRRM has changed Aegon III's second wife from a Velaryon, to the daughter of a Velaryon.

No matter if Alyn was Laenor's bastard or Corlys' bastard, he'd still be a cousin to Elaena (although perhaps more in the sense of Bloodraven being a cousin of Aegon V).

Thoughts?

(I think I need to make another chart...)

Didn't you mention you wanted to stard a thread about the Velaryons? I have entertained the exact same thought, though I was thinking about waiting until no spoiler tags are needed anymore, which is about another month and a half. Have you started a thread in the meantime?

Making a chart about the Velaryons (which I have tried to incorporate in my own Targaryen chart) would be too difficult at this time, since there are still many uncertainties. The trouble would arise with Addam and Alyn already, for example. And in between Velena Velaryon, Daemon Velaryon and Corlys we know nothing. About Alyn, we only know he had two bastards and loved Elaena, even though he was married. He would have had true born children, since he continued the line. But we don't know anything about the Velaryons in between Alyn and Monford, which must have been several generations.

[tsunad]

2. Aegon III's mother, Rhaenyra, was a Targaryen on her fathers side, and an Arryn from her mothers side. Rhaenyra's mother had Targaryen blood, though it is unknown when a Targaryen married an Arryn. The possibilities that exist now are that either it were sisters of Aenys I (he had 1 or 2 sisters of whom we don't know who they married), or it was a daughter of Aenys (might be Rhaena, might be that there was another one; Aenys had one daughter who married Maegor, one daughter who married his son (Alysanne and Jaehaerys) and Rhaena; Rhaena might have been the daughter who married Maegor, it is unknown whether there were 2 daughters or 3).

Wait. I have Aegon I + Rhaenys having one daughter who married Maegor. The source appears to be this post. Is that correct?

Yes, he would be. But keep in mind that Aegon V describes Bloodraven as his cousin, while Bloodraven is in fact his grandfather's halfbrother.

Okay. That makes things simpler.

Aegon III marries Jaehaera after the Dance. Jaehaera is the only daughter of Aegon II. In the very first draft of things, Aegon III then married a Velaryon, after Jaehaera dies, and has at least 5 children with her. Ran has hinted, however, that there might not be a Velaryon bride anymore. I admit I have been obsesing about this ever since I received tPatQ notes about a month before it's release. [...]

A potential daughter of Alyn (born in 132 AC at the earliest moment), would be 10 years old in 142 AC, the last possible moment a marriage with Aegon III could take place, since Daeron I was born in 143 AC. At 10, you're not capable of having a child yet. And no one would marry a 10 year old to a full grown man and expect her to get pregnant immediately. Since Aegon III have been king without heirs (save his own brother) for 11 years, Aegon III would marry someone who was certainly of the right age to get married.

Was it ever stated that Daeron I was not from Aegon III's marriage with Jaehaera?

Because if Daeron + a few other of Aegon III's children were from Aegon's first marriage, then it would be possible for Aegon to marry Alyn's daughter (born 132 AC at the earliest) around the time she's 16, and her to be the mother of Aegon's youngest children (including Elaena).

Ran has confirmed that Alyn of Hull, later Alyn Velaryon, and Elaena's Alyn are the same person. And that would make Alyn 35 years older than Elaena.

Got a source on this so I can reference it?

Which makes sense. Elaena married trice, and the third time was for love. Yet Jon and Jeyne remained bastards, and they would most certainly have been made legit had their parents married later on. Reason? Alyn was death at that point in time. Simply because he was already about 55 when Elaena was released from the Maiden Vault. Her third marriage would have been some few years later.

That does work pretty well.

I had an idea which might work, which evolves around Addam as much as Alyn. If Addam had a daughter before his death (he was 15 when he died, old enough to have gotten someone pregnant), this girl would be about 13 years old when Aegon III needs a remarriage at the latest. Though still very young, it's possible, and it would make Aegon's children cousins of Alyn.

Though I must admit it would be rather weird for a king to marry the child of a bastard, even though the bastard has been made legit. There is no mentioning of Addam having been married (only Addam and Alyn are legitimized), so Addam probably wasn't. Any child he might have had would most likely have been a bastard itself.

Agreed.

I'd say, look at Ran's hinting (I'll go search the quote for you tomorrow). There probably wasn't a Velaryon bride anymore. Though someone suggested an interesting replacement for the Velaryon bride. There are still Baela (though I don't see her survival chances being very high) and Rhaena (who's chances of survival of the Dance seem rather good up until now) Targaryen, daughters of not only Daemon Targaryen, but of Laena Velaryon. So perhaps GRRM has changed Aegon III's second wife from a Velaryon, to the daughter of a Velaryon.

I think that works best if Aegon III marries his half-sister Rhaena (or Baela).

No matter if Alyn was Laenor's bastard or Corlys' bastard, he'd still be a cousin to Elaena (although perhaps more in the sense of Bloodraven being a cousin of Aegon V).

One thing I find interesting is that if Alyn was Laenor's bastard, the modern House Velaryon would be also descended from the Targaryens.

Didn't you mention you wanted to stard a thread about the Velaryons? I have entertained the exact same thought, though I was thinking about waiting until no spoiler tags are needed anymore, which is about another month and a half. Have you started a thread in the meantime?

Not yet.

Making a chart about the Velaryons (which I have tried to incorporate in my own Targaryen chart) would be too difficult at this time, since there are still many uncertainties. The trouble would arise with Addam and Alyn already, for example. And in between Velena Velaryon, Daemon Velaryon and Corlys we know nothing. About Alyn, we only know he had two bastards and loved Elaena, even though he was married. He would have had true born children, since he continued the line. But we don't know anything about the Velaryons in between Alyn and Monford, which must have been several generations.

Yep. I'm just curious if they were Targaryens. Although having more of the Velaryon family tree would be useful.

[tsunad]

By the way, I tried to do a "modern great and other houses" family tree, and it just doesn't work doing it by hand. It's kind of fun to try though - it leads to some interesting trivias, like Samwell being the second cousin to Stannis's heir, Shireen.

[Luddagain]

It seems to me the interestingt issue is whether any of these many Targs and bastards married into great houses especially Tullys, Starks, Lannisters

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wait. I have Aegon I + Rhaenys having one daughter who married Maegor. The source appears to be this post. Is that correct?

Yes, that is correct :) . And most likely somewhere in that same thread, there should be a post about how Maegor also married Aenys' daughter. The post you provided also gives us insight in a reason: Many argued that the inheritance for the throne should go through Aenys, then his daughter (who was his firstborn), and only then Maegor. By marrying Aenys' daughter as well, Maegor could get acces to the throne easier and earlier. It was to strengthen his claim most likely.

So three of Maegors 6 to 9 wives are already known to us: Jeyne Westerling, Aenys' elder sister, Aenys' eldest daughter.

We only know three names of Aenys' children (Rhaena, Jaehaerys, Alysanna), but since no one can remember if it was Rhaena who married Maegor, we are all considering the possibility of a third daughter, until anything gets confirmed. It's simply the safest thing to do.

Was it ever stated that Daeron I was not from Aegon III's marriage with Jaehaera?

Because if Daeron + a few other of Aegon III's children were from Aegon's first marriage, then it would be possible for Aegon to marry Alyn's daughter (born 132 AC at the earliest) around the time she's 16, and her to be the mother of Aegon's youngest children (including Elaena).

I believe the information regarding Aegon's second marriage and the following children all came from the MUSH, which contains unpublished stuff Martin had told the admins, and which contains stuff that was made up purely for the game. Daeron, Baelor, Daena, Rhaena and Elaena are never stated to have been half-siblings however. And keep in mind that any daughter of Alyn marrying Aegon and having at the very least his last child, would mean that Alyn was proclaimed the love of the live of his very own granddaughter.

Got a source on this so I can reference it?

Here ya go. Keep in mind that it's a hint :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100284-spoilers-the-princess-and-the-queen-complete-spoilers-discussion/page-38#entry5201227

I think that works best if Aegon III marries his half-sister Rhaena (or Baela).

Yes, I have faith that that is what will eventually be written down. I think Rhaena more than Baela, since Baela's chances for survival (being a severely wounded prisoner in enemy camp) are becomming rather slim, while Rhaena only has another half year to stay safe, something which she has been doing for about a year and a half now. She's out of reach of the enemies.

One thing I find interesting is that if Alyn was Laenor's bastard, the modern House Velaryon would be also descended from the Targaryens.

Yes, indeed it would :)

Though I doubt we'll ever get an answer on that one. The only answer we might get, is whose bastards Corlys believed they were. The World book, for as far as I recall, is also an account written by maesters. And they do not know everything. It is already mentioned in tPatQ that the identity of Addam and Alyn is a discussion amongst historians and has been for many years.

But essentially, should the maesters write down that Corlys believes Alyn and Addam were Laenor's (which I'm hoping for), and we take it to mean Corlys was right, than the modern house Velaryon would indeed descent from dragons.

Yep. I'm just curious if they were Targaryens. Although having more of the Velaryon family tree would be useful.

More insight on the Velaryon tree should be in the World book, though I doubt we'll ever get to see a full one.

I'd love to see how all those mentioned Velaryons from history were related to each other, just as I'd love to see how all those Baratheons were related to each other (for example, Jocelyn, mother to Rhaenys the Queen who Never Was, and Lord Borros). I tried to incorporate them in a family tree of the Targaryens once, but I failed. We don't know enough about either family to do it properly.

Unfortunately :)

[tsunad]

Okay, read the Bubonicon 45 thread completely, and I've added a link to Aenys's daughter.

I've also removed Doran's two brothers from Robert's Rebellion, since they both died as infants. I've also added House Plumm as descendants of the Targaryens, since at this point the circumstantial evidence for Plumms having Targaryen blood is probably stronger than a few other things in the tree. :)

Here's the new tree.

I would love to see GRRM's notes right now, and see how close my version is to his. :P