The maesters chain

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I feel there's one more criteria to become a maester which hasn't been brought up: suitability.

This holds especially true for maesters going to serve a noble house, and less so for a maester who just wants to sit around the Citadel studying and experimenting all his life. The question is then "What should a maester be?" or "Does the Citadel even care if their maesters are assholes?" I'm going to go ahead and answer the second question myself: they probably only care if they're going to be seen by non-maesters... It's one thing to conduct vivisections like Qyburn, another to just be a dick.

I'd say that it's in the interests of both the Citadel and individual maesters not to be viewed negatively and that that might have some impact on whether or not you might be allowed to become a maester, regardless of how learned you are.

So, in case there really is a minimum limit regarding links, if you're an unsavory person or just overly vocal about your political leanings you might end up with many more links than is required to become a maester and still not actually end up a maester.

I feel like I could write tons more on this subject but since the thread isn't all that active and I'm fairly new to the world of ASOIAF it's all going to be relatively useless... :mellow:

Perhaps it's usually a certain "type" of person who comes to study at the Citadel?

People like Leo Tyrell, I guess, would be more inclined to remain at the Citadel, to make discoveries, make a name for themselves, and rise to the position of Archmaester... While the more modest maester is perfectly willing to serve at castles?

When a thread isn't as active anymore, post anyway :) it will draw attention again, re-starting conversation ;) Though this thread is about the maester's chain, we could discuss other criteria until we learn more about what is studied at the Citadel and how many links you need in order to take an exam..

Or, you start your own thread, that's always possible.. Do as you prefer :)

[Aniel]

Perhaps it's usually a certain "type" of person who comes to study at the Citadel?

People like Leo Tyrell, I guess, would be more inclined to remain at the Citadel, to make discoveries, make a name for themselves, and rise to the position of Archmaester... While the more modest maester is perfectly willing to serve at castles?

The thing about there being a certain type of person who usually comes to the Citadel leaves a bit too much room regarding their behaviour. I assume most people who go to the Citadel are there because they want knowledge (as well as to improve their lot in life), but that doesn't mean the students are all nice, helpful people who wish to serve the realm, there are surely rude and arrogant novices only there for their own gain too, perhaps even hesitant ones.

It seems likely to me that people who are contrary in the Citadel are going to have a harder time getting to forge their own chain and become a full maester, but then I might just be thinking about the Citadel a bit too much like WoT's White Tower.

[Modesty Lannister]

From the World of Ice and Fire we have learned that:

The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets," that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.

TWOIAF - The Reach: Oldtown

So, from that quote I can conclude that, apart from the already known subjects, the Citadel also teaches music, lore, some kind of comparative religion, alchemy, magic (Valyrian steel).

From the fact that the Citadel was founded in Peremore's honour, I'd postulate that the minimum number of subjects required to become a maester would be Peremore's age at the time of his death. Since he is referred to as a child, I'd guess he died before the age of 13. So, the upper estimate for the minimal number of chains that a maester has to forge would be 12.

I do not think the minimum is 7 since the Citadel was founded way before the Faith of Seven became official religion in Westeros.

I would not compare the Citadel with the wester European education system, but it is noteworthy that it was divided into:

Trivium (lower level) - Grammar, Logic, Rhetorics

Quadrivium (upper level) - Arithmetic, Geometry, Music and Astronomy.

These were also 7 liberal arts of classical antiquity.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I see no reason why Peremore's age (which we don't even know), would be an indication to the minimum amount of links? That's just an estimation you made, or is there a hint somewhere?

Good find on the subjects taught..

I'll definitely have to reread the parts on Oldtown from twoiaf

[Modesty Lannister]

I see no reason why Peremore's age (which we don't even know), would be an indication to the minimum amount of links? That's just an estimation you made, or is there a hint somewhere?

Good find on the subjects taught..

I'll definitely have to reread the parts on Oldtown from twoiaf

Thanks. From the part of my sentence that says "I'd postulate" it is clear that Peremore's age was my assessment, not a fact. The use of a conditional verb mode suggests that I cannot prove it.

But, that being said, since the Citadel was created in Peremore's honour, I guess there should be something in its organisation to remind everyone of the person who founded it (or caused its founding). And, imho, it could (again a conditional) be Peremore's young age of death. It would also remind young acolytes that not everyone had an unlimited time at their disposal to study and that nature can cut their studies short any day - Memento mori - Remember Death is a very powerful theme in our medieval world. I see no reason for it not existing in GRRM's world inspired by our medieval world.

Sadly, there is not much to reread about the Citadel in TWOIAF. What I quoted is about it. George must be saving information for his subsequent books and Sam's story.

ETA: I'd say botany must have been thought along with elementary animal husbandry. Botany would be the first step towards study of alchemy and subsequently magic, on one hand, and healing on the other. I'd also think heraldry of Westros houses was probably tought as a separate subject as an intro into history studies.

[HeWhoMustNotBeUsernamed]

Perhaps it's usually a certain "type" of person who comes to study at the Citadel?

People like Leo Tyrell, I guess, would be more inclined to remain at the Citadel, to make discoveries, make a name for themselves, and rise to the position of Archmaester... While the more modest maester is perfectly willing to serve at castles?

Uh... I don't actually recall if this has ever been answered in the books, but...

Do all maesters serve lords by necessity? Could they be privately employed by a non-noble, or could they perhaps be tied to a small town's population? Small towns probably need healers, smiths, and someone to advise farmers, but not so much economists or war tacticians.

I was also under the impression that a link meant a year of learning and the archmaesters decided whether you'd earned it. Then again, I don't believe this has been explicitly stated either.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Uh... I don't actually recall if this has ever been answered in the books, but...

Do all maesters serve lords by necessity? Could they be privately employed by a non-noble, or could they perhaps be tied to a small town's population? Small towns probably need healers, smiths, and someone to advise farmers, but not so much economists or war tacticians.

I was also under the impression that a link meant a year of learning and the archmaesters decided whether you'd earned it. Then again, I don't believe this has been explicitly stated either.

Well, Pate wanted to walk around and heal, but not as a maester. I think they can. Septon's do. But since maesters work for money (lords pay the Citadel for maesters service) then I doubt it is likely.

[HeWhoMustNotBeUsernamed]

Well, Pate wanted to walk around and heal, but not as a maester. I think they can. Septon's do. But since maesters work for money (lords pay the Citadel for maesters service) then I doubt it is likely.

But a lord needs all kinds of service, ergo a maester with many links in many metals. If you can only earn a few silver links you could at least eke out a living being a peasant doctor. I mean, there must be some non-priesthood physicians who aren't exclusively employed by nobles... there was that leech boy who narrated a prologue.

Unless, of course, your average maester treats everyone in the environs of the castle (serve the realm, not the lord, style of thing?) It'd be a pretty demanding job, but hey, why not?

Anyone know anything about the actual founding of the order? They must have been around for a while, but only recently did they replace the alchemists, apparently.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

But a lord needs all kinds of service, ergo a maester with many links in many metals. If you can only earn a few silver links you could at least eke out a living being a peasant doctor. I mean, there must be some non-priesthood physicians who aren't exclusively employed by nobles... there was that leech boy who narrated a prologue.

Unless, of course, your average maester treats everyone in the environs of the castle (serve the realm, not the lord, style of thing?) It'd be a pretty demanding job, but hey, why not?

Anyone know anything about the actual founding of the order? They must have been around for a while, but only recently did they replace the alchemists, apparently.

Well I think you only need one link to become a physician.

Actually, I think maesters treat sick peasents who come to castles, and I'm pretty sure, but don't have the books with me.

Council members in this world all have big jobs (seriously, 6-7 men did all the government, we can assume they had people under them but that's really only for the city) so the maester will just have to roll with it.

Origins are a few posts above; http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104547-the-maesters-chain/?p=6901370

I can say the alcehmists didn't replace them at all. Alchemists are a guild, maesters a brotherhood.