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Why Only One Baby Swap?


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#1 Lady Jeyna of the Hills

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:59 PM

Ok, so according to Varys and Illyrio, Varys swapped out baby Aegon with another baby and now the real Aegon has come to take his throne and rule Westeros. Huzzah!

 

However, if this is true and Varys was able to swap the babes, why didn't he also swap another child for Princess Rhaeys if he was so adamant about saving the Targs? She was only 3 at the time (I believe) and it would have been easy for him to find one of his little birds with her look to swap her for. Arguably, Ser Gregor Clegane, Lorch and co. would not have known exactly what she looked like and even Tywin had been away from court  for awhile so he may not have even been able to tell the difference. The fact that Varys did swap her as well just further points to the baby swap claim as being bs. But hey, maybe I'm just reading too much into it :)

 

(sorry if this has already been discussed!)



#2 The Bittersteel

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:02 PM

They didn't know the city was going to fall for certain or that Tywin would definitely betray them. If the baby swapping idea had been discovered then both children would have been lost. It makes sense to split up the heirs so not all your eggs are in one basket, hence Viserys and Daenarys to Dragonstone.



#3 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:20 PM

Someone could say that Rhaenys was too old to be able to be switched and when her corpse would be presented at the court it would be noticed that she wasn't Rhaenys.



#4 Lady Jeyna of the Hills

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:28 PM

They didn't know the city was going to fall for certain or that Tywin would definitely betray them. If the baby swapping idea had been discovered then both children would have been lost. It makes sense to split up the heirs so not all your eggs are in one basket, hence Viserys and Daenarys to Dragonstone.

This is a good point, I guess I'm definitely looking for Aegon not to really be Aegon!



#5 King of Winters

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:28 PM

Someone could say that Rhaenys was too old to be able to be switched and when her corpse would be presented at the court it would be noticed that she wasn't Rhaenys.


:agree: And you could even argue that this means there was no baby swap as Elia wouldn't leave one child behind, doomed to die at the hands of the rebels.

#6 Lord_Takahashi

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:34 PM

Because Brightfyre theory.

Also why would Elia be protecting the Pisswater Prince instead of Rhaenys? She wasn't in the same area of the Red Keep as her daughter during the sack and she takes the fake child? Elia personally breastfed her kids, she could tell the difference between her Aegon and some random kid from fleabottom.  Why carry around a imposter when your legitmate daughter is off somewhere else?



#7 Mourneblade

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:36 PM

Hate to say this, but if there really was a swap, it was because it was a boy. Viserys was already safely taken out, so the girl was not nearly as important as the boy. That is a sad thing to say, but it would be likely the biggest reason.


Edited by Mourneblade, 06 May 2014 - 03:37 PM.


#8 Bael's Bastard

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:42 PM

People knew what Rhaenys looked like.  Hardly anyone would know what Aegon looked like even without his face being smashed.  Aside from being a small baby, how many people of note ever really saw him enough to get to know what he looked like?  Tywin, who identifies him, returned to Casterly Rock prior to the tourney at Harrenhal, he never saw Aegon in his life.  Not that I buy that there was any switch.  Just that there is more to work with spinning a story about a switch with Aegon than was possible with Rhaenys.



#9 Lady Jeyna of the Hills

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:42 PM

Hate to say this, but if there really was a swap, it was because it was a boy. Viserys was already safely taken out, so the girl was not nearly as important as the boy. That is a sad thing to say, but it would be likely the biggest reason.

Ah, patriarchal history at it's finest. ;)



#10 Lady Jeyna of the Hills

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:43 PM

:agree: And you could even argue that this means there was no baby swap as Elia wouldn't leave one child behind, doomed to die at the hands of the rebels.

Exactly!



#11 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:48 PM

:agree: And you could even argue that this means there was no baby swap as Elia wouldn't leave one child behind, doomed to die at the hands of the rebels.

Also this. I find the notion that Elia would abandon her child to die and protect a nobody bloody ridiculous.


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 08 May 2014 - 12:06 PM.


#12 averde

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:56 PM

Lets not make this into a thread about Aegon being real or not, there's enough of those. Elia protecting baby Aegon and stuff like that doesn't answer the OPs question at all.

Rhaenys was old enough to have a distinguishable look to her, it was noted that she looked like a Martell, so it would have been harder if not impossible to put in a fake child in her place.

Edited by averde, 06 May 2014 - 03:56 PM.


#13 Cordelia Baratheon

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:13 PM

3 year olds talk and it's pretty difficult to make them say or believe something that isn't true.

 

If I suddenly told my 3 year old his name was Bob not Jim and our next door neighbour is his mum instead of me for example, then he would protest loudly and constantly because he knows it's not true. I can't imagine swapping Rhaenys would be practical for this reason.

 

Plus, in terms of the Targaryen line of succession, Aegon was Rhaegar's heir (therefore Aerys' heir after Rhaegar died) and although Rhaenys technically was next, the Targs have a history of passing over the legitimate female heir in favour of the next male heir, so Viserys was the next most important Targ in the line. Protecting the boys would have been considered more important than the girls.

 

And as for Elia not letting them take one of her children away, I really don't think she would have had any say in the matter. She was a prisoner in Kings Landing at the time and historically contact with their mother was never considered that important when it came to raising future kings.



#14 Vivianne

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:23 PM

 Elia wouldn't leave one child behind

 

 

Since when do the women get to make any decisions? of course they manipulate situations throughout the story, but ultimately the men call the shots



#15 Vivianne

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:25 PM

 

 

 as for Elia not letting them take one of her children away, I really don't think she would have had any say in the matter. She was a prisoner in Kings Landing at the time and historically contact with their mother was never considered that important when it came to raising future kings.

that too :agree:



#16 Fool of a Book

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:11 PM

We already have at least one true baby-swap.  Gilly's child and Mance's.  We already have Sam telling us how Maesters know to give babies goat's milk in lieu of mother's milk.  We already know that even those closest to Gilly and Mance's babies couldn't tell that they'd been switched.

 

We already know that the male children were the heirs.  We already know that Aegon was more important, and in line before, Rhaenys and Viserys.   We already know Ned brought up Viserys before knowing another existed.

 

We already know that Elia was aware of Aegon's importance since the time of his birth.  We already know the KG were sworn to protect the King.  We already know Rhaegar was never King, but Aegon was.

 

We already know the KG at the ToJ did not consider Viserys the King.

 

We already know that Lyanna may have given birth within days to a few weeks of the ToJ battle.

 

We already know there is little explanation why the KG would hang around a pregnant woman, who may or may not give birth to a live healthy male heir.

 

We already know Rhaegar had some powers of prophecy.

 

We already know that both Gerold and Ned found the ToJ through someone.

 

We already know it was Maester Walys who brokered the Stark marriages.  We already know the Citadel has a hand in everything.

 

We already know Aegon was the true heir after Aerys and Rhaegar died.  We do NOT know that Lyanna's supposedly male was the true heir.

 

We already know Ned was able to lie to someone on their deathbed re: taking care of their children.

 

We already know Ned has brought up the question of what a parent would do when it comes to their children.

 

We already know everything.

 

-

 

Conjecture:

 

Rhaegar brought Aegon south about the time that R disappeared from KL, with Elia's consent, to hide him, along with two KG, because they believed he was TPTWP.    To DORNE, Elia's home.

 

They switched him with the closest Targ-looking baby available - Ashara Dayne's.  Ashara, handmaid to Elia, connected romantically to at least one Stark, possibly impregnated around the same time that Elia was impregnated with Aegon, sister to a KG, and not nailed down to Starfall.

 

They had no reason to believe Elia and children would be killed.  They only cared to try and hide TPTWP, the Song of Ice and Fire.

 

Rhaenys was never in line for the throne.  Elia stayed in KL as a prisoner wither her daughter well after her son Aegon was spirited away.  Her supposed son, a Dayne, "looked like a Targ" with his violet eyes.

 

When Aerys ordered Gerold to find Rhaegar, Gerold got the information where to find them from his bastard relative, Maester Walys Flowers, Lyanna's Maester since she was born.  Needle in a haystack he found them... and stayed there instead of returning to his King, or fighting with his Prince at the Trident.

 

At the Sack, Rhaenys was scared and ran away from her bed.  Or her mother told her to run and hide.  Or her mother was assured by someone else that Rhaenys was OK.  Regardless, Elia kept an innocent baby in her arms out of motherly instinct, knowing her son was far away.

 

Best case scenario for Elia would be that she, Rhaenys and the babe would be banished to Dragonstone to join Rhaella and Viserys.  Worst case, as it happened, would be that the babe was killed... with the plus side being everyone would think Aegon was dead, and he was therefore safe.

 

Then, someone told Ned where to find Lyanna, another needle in a haystack.  Again, the culprit is Walys, Maester of his House, son of an Archmaester, whose fate is mysteriously unknown.

 

Conclusion:  Varys swapped the wrong child, but believes the child to be Aegon.  fAegon is a Dayne/Stark.  

 

-

 

GRRM already gave us Robert's deathbed scene, with all the discussion of killing Targ babies and Ned floundering to express a promise,  and the whole scenario between Gilly/Mance's babe at the Wall, and how Maesters know how to keep a babe alive without a wetnurse or mother.  Why isn't anyone listening?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#17 Lord_Takahashi

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 07:41 PM

People knew what Rhaenys looked like.  Hardly anyone would know what Aegon looked like even without his face being smashed.  Aside from being a small baby, how many people of note ever really saw him enough to get to know what he looked like?  Tywin, who identifies him, returned to Casterly Rock prior to the tourney at Harrenhal, he never saw Aegon in his life.  Not that I buy that there was any switch.  Just that there is more to work with spinning a story about a switch with Aegon than was possible with Rhaenys.

The smashing of the head seems odd to me. It is listed as a reason that Young Griff can be Aegon, however it seems odd that they'd leave it to chance that it was Gregor who found Elia instead of Amory Lorch, who wouldn't have smashed his head in. Even with the mountain the loyalists wouldn't risk Aegon getting discovered because of Gregor's actions.



#18 Mdoggy

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 07:50 PM

How many thrusts does it take to kill three year old Rheanys?

 

Apearently it takes 100 wounds to kill her

 

why would you stab a three year old 100 times ......

 

hmmmmm....

 

maybe to hide who they really were?



#19 Drogon'sWrath

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:26 PM

How many thrusts does it take to kill three year old Rheanys?

 

Apearently it takes 100 wounds to kill her

 

why would you stab a three year old 100 times ......

 

hmmmmm....

 

maybe to hide who they really were?

To be fair, it was Amory Lorch who killed her.  It seems he had a penchant for being a violent S.O.B.



#20 BitsOfBrains

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:41 PM

Maybe I missed something, but I thought they were swapped at birth?

 

I must have missread something because the general consensus seems to be a last minute swap and dash.