Heresy 129

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 129, the latest edition of the long-running thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy covers a wide variety of subjects, but is largely about questioning some of the popular assumptions that the Wall and the Nights Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as both the lost Targaryen heir and as Azor Ahai. As the story has progressed it’s become clear that nothing is as it seems and that there may even be some truth in the old joke that it will turn out not to be Dany’s amazing dragons who save Westeros from the Others, but that the Others will help save Westeros from the dragons!

Heresy is therefore about trying to figure out what’s really going on, by looking at clues in the text itself, and in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle, the Morrigan and the Mabinogion, all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might appear confusing, but we are engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. While most threads in this forum concentrate on a particular issue, we therefore range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics

A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found essays on seven major topics in heresy, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

The Heresy 100 essays were a very successful project orchestrated by Mace Cooterian to celebrate the centennial edition, and by popular request we now intend to run a follow-up with five topics for the five kings.

Five new volunteers have been secured and randomly matched by Mace to their subjects, as below

Project #1 (Joffrey) : Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised - Butcher Crow

Project #2 (Stannis) : The Wildings - Wolfmaid7

Project #3 (Renly) : Weirwoods - Snowfyre Chorus

Project #4 (Robb) : Faceless Men - Butterbumps

Project #5 (Balon) : Hammer of the Waters and The Shattering of the Arm - Eira Seren

Although these are all topics we’ve covered before in the ordinary course of conversation, the intention as with the centennial set is to start off with a completely new essay summarising what we know, think we know and really don’t know, and then spend that particular thread discussing it in detail.

All being well we’re hoping to kick this off in Heresy 131.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Hrafntýr]

Without knowing what was in it the Jade Companion is a bit problematic. All that we do know is that it is a traveller's account of the mysterious east and that Maester Aemon marked up the passage about Azor Ahai that Jon might understand that Stannis' sword was a fake. Theoretically its possible that the passage might contain other information by which the "real" Azor Ahai might be identified and Stannis exposed though not fitting those criteria [eg: not born on Dragonstone] but it really does sound as though its about the sword and not therefore whatever got Rhaegar excited.

It was a long shot. I just assume that Rhaegar being the bookish type assembled all the texts that might have any sort of bearing on his interest in prophecy. I also find it amusing to think that perhaps this account of visits east contained mythology of AA and prophecies about his return and that Aemon just marked the passage about the sword because that was pertinent to Stannis' sword, without knowing that Mel may be starting to think that Jon is AA reborn and that there could be other relevant info.

[Melifeather]

Brought over from the last thread:

Feather Crystal and lockesnow:

My good friend The Weeper was kind enough to loan me his scythe so I could put down your theory about Mance Rayder being Jon Snow's father.

We know that Deaddard was in the south of Westeros at the end of Robert's Rebellion, and we know that he slew Arthur Dayne. Deaddard then journeyed to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes for safekeeping until another Sword of the Morning arose. We know this because other witnesses of the visit to Starfall exist, as related by Edric "Ned" Dayne. We know that Jon Snow was present at Starfall with before his milk-brother, Edric Dayne, as well as Wylla, their wetnurse and the proffered mother of Jon Snow with Deaddard. If Jon Snow was at Starfall as an infant, then he wasn't born in the crypts of Winterfell with Mance and Lyanna present.

I suppose that you could argue that the baby at Starfall was actually (f)Aegon with his real mother, Ashara Dayne a/k/a Septa Lemore, while Mance and Lyanna were cooing over their bundle of joy in the crypts. However, if that was the case, then how did the cover story that the infant in Starfall was named "Jon Snow" get started? Remember, by your account, Deaddard is wandering around in the south of Westeros, looking for Lyanna, and unaware that she is back in the Winterfell crypts with Mance Rayder and a baby. At the time that Deaddard was in Starfall, he would have been completely unaware of the existence of any "Jon Snow" in the crypts of Winterfell. Where did the Daynes hear about Jon Snow?

I suppose that you could say that Deaddard sent a raven to them upon his return to Winterfell, but I don't think that the Daynes are about to do him the favor of lying on his behalf over some cocked-up story about returning home and finding his sister with child after he just killed the Daynes' favorite son.

Sorry, but the theory doesn't add up.

However, you will receive a copy of the home game for playing.

I think there was a great conspiracy to protect Prince Aegon, whose mother would be Elia by the way. I think if Ned were to have discovered Aegon at Starfall, there could have been deliberate collaboration between Ashara and Ned.

Merely a flesh wound.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It would give the Rhaegar and Lyanna were lawfully married crowd conniption fits if it turned out all those guardsmen at the tower were there because she had already tried to escape once...

Ha! Yes, that would be rather hilarious...

Roose Bolton, Hodor, Lord Wyman Manderly, etc. If anyone wants to put forth a theory that a northerner or wildling is responsible for impregnating Lyanna, the proponent will have to explain why infant Jon Snow was at Starfall along with a few years before the birth of little Edric Dayne. If the theory is that some other infant was at Starfall, the proponent must explain why the Daynes are lying about Jon Snow and how Deaddard and the Daynes would have known about Jon Snow at the time that Deaddard visited Starfall.

Another witness to Deaddard's doings after his visit to Storm's End is Howland Reed. Isn't he supposed to show up later with a harp and parchment?

Snowfyre: Bolton, let's hear about it.

Some really great questions here, PFrey. The one thing I'll challenge you on is your claim that Jon was actually at Starfall. I agree it is possible he was there at some point, but I don't see anything in our text that establishes that as a fact. (And either way, it's worth pointing out that women occasionally travel during pregnancy... ;) )

Re: a Bolton theory... I'm not offering theories, just turning some ideas over. That said, I'd find it endlessly amusing if R+L equals J after all... and the R stands for "Roose." I'll keep you posted.

Have you considered Ned reenacting the Bael fruit story?

Now how would that work, do you suppose?

(Loved your favorite pet theory #2, by the way! I'm not as versed in pop music, but every now and then I do run into things in these books that make me wonder...)

[Melifeather]

I had posted this in the other thread also:

It really isn't all that complicated. Rhaegar and his Kingsguard and probably Ashara take Aegon with the intention of safekeeping in Dorne. Rhaegar gets called back or returned early leaving Aegon with the Kingsguard and Ashara. Ned comes upon them at the Tower of Joy. Ned brings Ashara and Aegon to Winterfell claiming the babe as his, thus the rumors that Ashara was Jon's mother.. Wylla becomes the wetnurse for Aegon and/or Jon. When Ned arrives home, he discovers Lyanna and Jon, so Ashara has to take Aegon somewhere else, but both babes are running interference for each other. Aegon's arrival as Ned's bastard is the perfect cover for Jon to come out of hiding, and Aegon is also concealed by assuming Jon's identity.

[Black Crow]

Ha! Yes, that would be rather hilarious...

Some really great questions here, PFrey. The one thing I'll challenge you on is your claim that Jon was actually at Starfall. I agree it is possible he was there at some point, but I don't see anything in our text that establishes that as a fact. (And either way, it's worth pointing out that women occasionally travel during pregnancy... ;) )

I'm all for keeping things simple and introducing Aegon into the picture at this particular point is way too complicated. My own take on this as outlined above is that Lyanna was indeed at Starfall, rather than at the so-called tower of joy and was taken north by Rhaegar along with the Dornish, marching through the Prince's Pass, but had to be abandoned not in a "remote" hiding place but in a watchtower close by the road through the pass, because she was unfit to travel further. The fact she was dragged that far in her condition is something which in itself must raise questions about the true nature of her relationship with Rhaegar.

[The Free Folk]

I had posted this in the other thread also:

It really isn't all that complicated. Rhaegar and his Kingsguard and probably Ashara take Aegon with the intention of safekeeping in Dorne. Rhaegar gets called back or returned early leaving Aegon with the Kingsguard and Ashara. Ned comes upon them at the Tower of Joy. Ned brings Ashara and Aegon to Winterfell claiming the babe as his, thus the rumors that Ashara was Jon's mother.. Wylla becomes the wetnurse for Aegon and/or Jon. When Ned arrives home, he discovers Lyanna and Jon, so Ashara has to take Aegon somewhere else, but both babes are running interference for each other. Aegon's arrival as Ned's bastard is the perfect cover for Jon to come out of hiding, and Aegon is also concealed by assuming Jon's identity.

I follow right up to the bolded bit. Do you mind clarifying what you mean here? Are you saying that when Ashara and Aegon first left Winterfell in this scenario, he was posing as a Northern bastard?

Not saying I buy into this theory, or any of the other non-R+L theories of Jon's parentage that have presented, but still some intriguing ideas that at least have me questioning the R+L=J accepted 'truths' for the first time since finding the forums.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I had posted this in the other thread also:

It really isn't all that complicated. Rhaegar and his Kingsguard and probably Ashara take Aegon with the intention of safekeeping in Dorne. Rhaegar gets called back or returned early leaving Aegon with the Kingsguard and Ashara. Ned comes upon them at the Tower of Joy. Ned brings Ashara and Aegon to Winterfell claiming the babe as his, thus the rumors that Ashara was Jon's mother.. Wylla becomes the wetnurse for Aegon and/or Jon. When Ned arrives home, he discovers Lyanna and Jon, so Ashara has to take Aegon somewhere else, but both babes are running interference for each other. Aegon's arrival as Ned's bastard is the perfect cover for Jon to come out of hiding, and Aegon is also concealed by assuming Jon's identity.

Except that we have a first hand account in Ned's own head of Lyanna being in the tower of joy

[Melifeather]

I follow right up to the bolded bit. Do you mind clarifying what you mean here? Are you saying that when Ashara and Aegon first left Winterfell in this scenario, he was posing as a Northern bastard?

Not saying I buy into this theory, or any of the other non-R+L theories of Jon's parentage that have presented, but still some intriguing ideas that at least have me questioning the R+L=J accepted 'truths' for the first time since finding the forums.

Aegon traveled to Winterfell as Jon, bastard son of Ned. He would have had to been smuggled out of Winterfell when Ashara left. Jon would simply then be brought out of hiding and assume the bastard role.

[Melifeather]

Except that we have a first hand account in Ned's own head of Lyanna being in the tower of joy

I would remind you that it was a fever dream and not a clear memory.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I would remind you that it was a fever dream and not a clear memory.

With nothing contradictory offered whatsoever. I don't think we can ignore text like that with no plausible contradiction supplied by the book.

GRRM has told us all of the clues are in the first book, so to disregard this one without some other clue I think is folly.

[The Free Folk]

Aegon traveled to Winterfell as Jon, bastard son of Ned. He would have had to been smuggled out of Winterfell when Ashara left. Jon would simply then be brought out of hiding and assume the bastard role.

Gotcha. Thanks!

An interesting theory; I don't know that there's really much evidence especially compared to the accepted R+L=J, however, intereseting nonetheless.

[Black Crow]

With nothing contradictory offered whatsoever. I don't think we can ignore text like that with no plausible contradiction supplied by the book.

GRRM has told us all of the clues are in the first book, so to disregard this one without some other clue I think is folly.

:agree:

[Melifeather]

With nothing contradictory offered whatsoever. I don't think we can ignore text like that with no plausible contradiction supplied by the book.

GRRM has told us all of the clues are in the first book, so to disregard this one without some other clue I think is folly.

Well I happen to disagree. I think the whole story is plainly there. The evidence used for Jon could easily be applied to Aegon, and to me having the Kingsguard protecting Aegon and having the location being on the way to Dorne makes much more sense for Aegon than for Jon.

[The Free Folk]

Apologies for the change of topic, but just thinking out loud:

I came across the following of Old Nan's tales on my current reread. Went back to Heresy 6 and didn't see any discussion on it, but otherwise haven't really searched, so pardons if it's already been discussed:

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. - Arya, p. 142, COK

What intriguied me is that if you replace 'giants' with 'children' and the castle with a cave, it sounds eerily similar to Bran's situation in the cave with the Wight-field outside, perhaps supporting the idea that Bran is a prisoner not a guest. However, that thought made me immediately jump to a new line of thought as to why 'children' would be replaced with 'giants' in Old Nan's tale. So I guess what I'm asking is whether, other than the obvious connection of being Old Races and despite the vast differences in size, there are any similarities or connections between the children and the giants that would lead to the two being conflated in the ancient myths?

There's the mysterious "brothers and bane" line from Leaf (IIRC), but a few chapters after the above quote another potential clue of a connection caught my attention:

Two branches parted, and he glimpsed a little man moving from limb to limb as easily as a squirrel. Bedwyck stood no more than five feet tall, but the grey streaks in his hair showed his age. The other rangers called him Giant. - Jon, p. 206, COK

And while it may be a stretch, there are other situations where tales talk of giants, but if I my speculation is correct, they could be referring to the children, such as "the giants in Old Nan’s tales, those huge savage creatures who mixed blood into their morning porridge" (Jon, p. 455, DWD) which sounds suspiciously like what the children do in the Jojenpaste theory. Maybe also says something to the HoJ waking giants from the earth? Or giants helping build the wall, when as many suspect, it was infact the children and their magic?

Now this may all be a happy coincidence that I'm looking too far into, however, the first idea that came to me when I started wondering whether giants and children could be conflated in the old tales, was that perhaps the giants and not the WW were the fighting force of the children back in the day. As in the children were the underground brains of the Old Races whereas the giants were the muscle, so acts committed by the children were attributed to giants by men. I don't know, does this idea have any traction?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Well I happen to disagree. I think the whole story is plainly there. The evidence used for Jon could easily be applied to Aegon, and to me having the Kingsguard protecting Aegon and having the location being on the way to Dorne makes much more sense for Aegon than for Jon.

Certainly are entitled to your opinion, I just think Ned remembering Lyanna being in the tower of joy is a pretty huge obstacle for it.

[lokisnow]

Except that we have a first hand account in Ned's own head of Lyanna being in the tower of joy

We also have a first hand account in Jon's own head of Ygritte being in the winterfell hearttree pool.

Both fever dreams that result from leg wounds.

[lokisnow]

btw, I find the idea that Lyanna never left the north and nor did Jon, that Rhaegar was innocent of the rape and kidnapping and that Brandon's accusation was false incredibly inticing. There are simply enormous gaps in what we know of the timeline in between the Harrenhall tourney and Brandon's accusations. (Perhaps Brandon was just trying to cover up his own affair with the highborn Dustin gal, and projected his own sins onto Rhaegar. ;))

As others have pointed out, the logistics are difficult, and the simplest explanation is the widely accepted theory of Lyanna at the Tower of Joy.

On the other hand, this rather ossified interpretation was carved into stone when there were only three books. I remember back before AFFC came out there were constant threads about whether or not Aegon might be alive, and it was widely scoffed at, a hairball, nonsensical silly theory that seemed to have zero place in such a gritty world where other than Beric and Catelyn you're dead. It wouldn't be like the GRRM who killed Ned and Robb et al to have Aegon be secretly alive after so much on screen commentary about his gruesome and semi-public death.

Since then, obviously, we have lots of new information that Aegon--or someone claiming to be Aegon--is indeed alive.

But the logistics of how and when Aegon was changed have not been worked out. In part, perhaps, because the Jon Snow theory of the Tower of Joy is an old and ossified theory that has been carved into stone. But remember, that interpretation was committed to eternity when nobody knew that Aegon was a confounding factor.

The disappearance of Aegon from Kings Landing is something that should question whether or not the Jon Snow theory of the Tower of Joy is in fact true. Aegon was never accounted for when the theory was established, and his presence could very well confound some of the perceived facts on the ground.

Also, remember the wet nurse first enters the chronology when Ned travels from the Vale to Winterfell to raise the banners. No one ever seems to account for that... that tidbit of info was in ADWD in a Davos chapter, I believe.

[Black Crow]

Apologies for the change of topic, but just thinking out loud:

I came across the following of Old Nan's tales on my current reread. Went back to Heresy 6 and didn't see any discussion on it, but otherwise haven't really searched, so pardons if it's already been discussed:

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. - Arya, p. 142, COK

What intriguied me is that if you replace 'giants' with 'children' and the castle with a cave, it sounds eerily similar to Bran's situation in the cave with the Wight-field outside, perhaps supporting the idea that Bran is a prisoner not a guest. However, that thought made me immediately jump to a new line of thought as to why 'children' would be replaced with 'giants' in Old Nan's tale. So I guess what I'm asking is whether, other than the obvious connection of being Old Races and despite the vast differences in size, there are any similarities or connections between the children and the giants that would lead to the two being conflated in the ancient myths?

There's the mysterious "brothers and bane" line from Leaf (IIRC), but a few chapters after the above quote another potential clue of a connection caught my attention:

Two branches parted, and he glimpsed a little man moving from limb to limb as easily as a squirrel. Bedwyck stood no more than five feet tall, but the grey streaks in his hair showed his age. The other rangers called him Giant. - Jon, p. 206, COK

And while it may be a stretch, there are other situations where tales talk of giants, but if I my speculation is correct, they could be referring to the children, such as "the giants in Old Nan’s tales, those huge savage creatures who mixed blood into their morning porridge" (Jon, p. 455, DWD) which sounds suspiciously like what the children do in the Jojenpaste theory. Maybe also says something to the HoJ waking giants from the earth? Or giants helping build the wall, when as many suspect, it was infact the children and their magic?

Now this may all be a happy coincidence that I'm looking too far into, however, the first idea that came to me when I started wondering whether giants and children could be conflated in the old tales, was that perhaps the giants and not the WW were the fighting force of the children back in the day. As in the children were the underground brains of the Old Races whereas the giants were the muscle, so acts committed by the children were attributed to giants by men. I don't know, does this idea have any traction?

An interesting idea certainly and I would say one with considerable merit. Old Nan is demonstrably unreliable and indeed deliberately hostile when it comes to describing anything beyond the Wall.

I certainly find the parallel between the story you've just recalled with Bran's present situation to be rather compelling and would also note Jon's disappointment[?] that the giants he encounters are nothing like those described by Old Nan.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

We also have a first hand account in Jon's own head of Ygritte being in the winterfell hearttree pool.

Both fever dreams that result from leg wounds.

Too many references to "in the dream as in life" to ignore, IMO, but you're certainly entitled to your own opinion on the subject.