The Two Walls (theory)

[House Of Wolves]

Im not sure if this has ever been mentioned before but I recently came up with the idea that there could have been two walls built instead of just the one. Not only did i find the idea interesting but I actually might have found some evidence that could back it up.

-Creation

Ok so the theory is that at the end of the battle for the dawn a treaty of peace was struck and in order to keep this peace it was decided to build 2 giant walls side by side. A northern wall and a southern wall. They were very close to one another but not so close that if one fell it would bring down the other. The northern wall was enchanted to keep out the others while the southern wall was enchanted to keep out humans.The
exception would be an order known as the nights watch that would live within the wall and guard both realms from the other. the northern realms would be the domain of all the mystical creatures ( children of the forest, giants, mammoths and so on) ,while the southern realms would be the domain of man.

ok so before i get to one of the walls destruction lets look at the first evidence that there could have been two walls. THe nights watch oath.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that
wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come

- I am the watcher on the walls.

Why does it say walls and not wall? THeres Really nothing more to say about it. is it just an error?It makes no sense to say walls unless there is more then one there watching.

-I am the sword in the darkness.

In the darkness. Imagine what it would be like to live between 2 giant walls. You would be living most of your life in darkness. The closer and higher these 2 walls are the more time you would be in darkness.

We also know certain things were added to the oath
I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

therefore things could have been altered as well. like the shield that guards the realms of men could have been altered from the shield that guards the realms of blank and the realms of men. which brings us to the destruction of the southern wall.

-Destruction

This bring us to the time of the Nights King.we all know the story. The Nights king takes a woman who is one of the others for his bride and declares himself king of the nights watch. the nights king rules for 13 years and does terrible things some among them are sacrfices to the others. But how do you stop him? he is protected by two giant walls and
an elite fighting force at his command. well when the two walls were created there were also two horns created that could destroy the walls. one horn given to each side that destroys the wall that keeps there enemies out.

which brings us to The horn of winter and the fall of the southern wall.

The Horn of Winter, also known as the Horn of Joramun, is a legendary horn with magical properties. It was supposedly blown by Joramun, a wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall. When he blew the horn, he woke the giants from the earth. It is claimed that blowing the Horn will destroy the Wall.

Ok so we know that joramun and the stark king were the ones to defeat The Nights king. We know that it is said that the horn destroys the wall and that he also blew it before. When he blew the horn it woke giants from the earth.

Imagine what the people north of the northern wall would hear,feel,see as the southern wall came crashing down behind the northern wall. The ground would shake the sound would be insane. You would see huge plums of dust riseing from behind the northern wall. this is
where the story of giants wakeing from the earth comes from.

Well I prolly could have gone on for longer but i think you get the idea of it. There were once 2 walls and Joramun blew a horn destroying one. Almost 8000 years later and no one even remembers it was there. So wouldnt there be storys of there being 2 walls? Yes there normaly would be. the only thing i can think of as to why it wouldnt is that it became
something people were not supposed to talk about. Well thats the theory anyways thoughts?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

"I am the watcher on the walls." That is interesting. You might have convinced me.

[Ser Eric]

As far as theories go, this is a very good one. I like it!

[aryagonnakill#2]

Try as I might I cannot refute that the word walls is plural... 1 thing I can refute is that we do not "know" that the 2nd part of the vows were added later, that is still just speculation, although I wouldn't call it crackpot.

However 1 thing that doesn't make much sense, what would be the southern walls purpose, when there were already tons of wildlings north of the northern wall?

You did make me consider something interesting about the Horn of Joramun. What if it was simply Joramuns version of Mance's fire in the TV show. What if it was simply how Joramun signaled to the Stark south of the wall that they were ready and to attack from both directions at the same time?

[TheLastStark]

Ok so the theory is that at the end of the battle for the dawn a treaty of peace was struck and in order to keep this peace it was decided to build 2 giant walls side by side. A northern wall and a southern wall. They were very close to one another but not so close that if one fell it would bring down the other. The northern wall was enchanted to keep out the others while the southern wall was enchanted to keep out humans.The

exception would be an order known as the nights watch that would live within the wall and guard both realms from the other. the northern realms would be the domain of all the mystical creatures ( children of the forest, giants, mammoths and so on) ,while the southern realms would be the domain of man.

The Horn of Winter, also known as the Horn of Joramun, is a legendary horn with magical properties. It was supposedly blown by Joramun, a wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall. When he blew the horn, he woke the giants from the earth. It is claimed that blowing the Horn will destroy the Wall.

These two contradict each other, if the southern wall was ment to keep humans out 1)how would there be wildlings? 2)how would the NW get through? And also why would the wall only keep the Others out and not other mystical creatures? And then are you saying that the NW was comprised of more than just humans?

We also know certain things were added to the oath

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

Can you show me the quote that proves certain oaths were added after the beginning of the NW. I'm not saying I don't believe you I just want to see the quote.

I like the idea of two walls, but I find it more likely that one wall is the ice the wall is made of(physical wall) and the other is the magical one(invisible) that keeps the Others and their wights out plus keeps the physical wall standing.

[House Of Wolves]

However 1 thing that doesn't make much sense, what would be the southern walls purpose, when there were already tons of wildlings north of the northern wall?

These two contradict each other, if the southern wall was ment to keep humans out 1)how would there be wildlings? 2)how would the NW get through? And also why would the wall only keep the Others out and not other mystical creatures? And then are you saying that the NW was comprised of more than just humans?

Ya I thought about this also. I wouldnt say there were tons though. 13 lord commanders and maybe hundreds of years later would have been enough time for a very small number of humans to become quite a large number. Also these humans that choose to live north of the wall might have only been allowed to do so as long as they followed certain rules. I wont lie thought it does hurt the theory but it doesnt destroy it.

As for the the other creatures and how the night watch members entered if they were humans. well the creatures were not what man feared crossing into there domain but the others were. as for wether any of the mystical creatures were members of nights watch. I dont know as all records before the nights king were destroyed.As for the other part Nights watch members would have taken there oaths before being able to enter the walls as nights watch members are able to pass through the magic. Like how nights kings bride who was a other passed through the other way.

I wont lie I could be wrong about a lot of things haha. I just thought it was an interesting idea more then i saw it as being fact.

[Archmaester Drew]

You can't build a wall out of an 's'.

There is no physical evidence for, or legends about, two walls.

The First Men and Children united with the giants to repel the Others. Why would they be on the 'Other' side of the wall(s)?

And why would the Nights Watch be only humans?

;)

[House Of Wolves]

There is no physical evidence for, or legends about, two walls.

nope there isnt.

The First Men and Children united with the giants to repel the Others. Why would they be on the 'Other' side of the wall(s)?

There is no where in text that sais this. Just that the last hero seeked out the children in the end. then afterwards the children and the giants helped build the wall. For all we know the children could have created the others.

And why would the Nights Watch be only humans?

Were they? We dont know maybe there were non human members of the nights watch or then again maybe there wasnt.

[TheLastStark]

Ya I thought about this also. I wouldnt say there were tons though. 13 lord commanders and maybe hundreds of years later would have been enough time for a very small number of humans to become quite a large number. Also these humans that choose to live north of the wall might have only been allowed to do so as long as they followed certain rules. I wont lie thought it does hurt the theory but it doesnt destroy it.

As for the the other creatures and how the night watch members entered if they were humans. well the creatures were not what man feared crossing into there domain but the others were. as for wether any of the mystical creatures were members of nights watch. I dont know as all records before the nights king were destroyed.As for the other part Nights watch members would have taken there oaths before being able to enter the walls as nights watch members are able to pass through the magic. Like how nights kings bride who was a other passed through the other way.

I wont lie I could be wrong about a lot of things haha. I just thought it was an interesting idea more then i saw it as being fact.

No it is an interesting theory, you just didn't account for all the counter questions.

But if there was a second wall(physical and magical) I would think that the horn took it down when Joarum blew it. Side effect was waking the giants(or visa versa, did it to wake the giants and it took the south wall down). That may also be why the NW is not allowed to have a wall south of it's forts anymore. But I would venture that the second wall was a back up plan in case the Others got through the first one.

Or when the horn was blown, it took down the original wall, and then they rebuilt on that. Two walls.

There is no where in text that sais this. Just that the last hero seeked out the children in the end. then afterwards the children and the giants helped build the wall. For all we know the children could have created the others.

According to legends, in the midst of this darkness a race of apparent demons, called the Others, emerged from the uttermost north, the polar regions of the Lands of Always Winter. They wielded razor-thin swords of ice and raisedwights to fight the living. The children of the forest and their allies, the First Men, fought valiantly against them, but were driven southwards by their advance.

It just doesn't mention the giants, who may or may not have helped in the war.

And they could very well have created the Others.

[anonnyscouse]

What if the missing wall wasn't southern, it was northern? We know wildlings do have some pretty unpleasant tribes, and the tribes that aren't as unpleasant are usually descendants of NW deserters, what if the treaty that created the Walls and the NK were actually to protect both Westeros and the Others from the likes of the Thenns and Ice-River clans?

[UtherSnow]

This has been raised elsewhere in a general thread attempting to piece together anything surrounding The Others.

The model for this theory is Hadrian's Wall. There is a second wall that not too many people really appreciate was constructed. This other wall is known as The Antonine Wall, approx 40miles long between the Firth of Forth and the Firth of Clyde. It was part of Roman defensive positions to maintain order in the region. Also, this marked the northernmost end of The Roman Empire.

GRRM freely admits that Hadrian's Wall formed his inspiration to have a wall in his books. As he again admits, he just built one bigger in all dimensions. Several hundred feet tall compared to 10 feet for Antonine Wall, 15 feet approx for Hadrian's Wall.

If you'd like to estimate how long it took to build The Wall (NW's wall), construction of Antonine Wall took 12 years to complete. Hadrian's Wall took only 6 years to complete, due to a different design and build method.

I can't recall the link but the heading was similar to this..... Night's Watch - The Others' Purpose. It's got several ideas running at the moment. The Others having their own wall seems quite logical, particularly as they don't like visitors.

[TheLastStark]

What if the missing wall wasn't southern, it was northern? We know wildlings do have some pretty unpleasant tribes, and the tribes that aren't as unpleasant are usually descendants of NW deserters, what if the treaty that created the Walls and the NK were actually to protect both Westeros and the Others from the likes of the Thenns and Ice-River clans?

Except that the Others scare the crap out of the wildlings and humans in general

[anonnyscouse]

Except that the Others scare the crap out of the wildlings and humans in general

They do now, but with the NK theory that The Others had a peace treaty would suggest they are not the implacable enemy they are now seen as. We don't know how much has been forgotten since the Wall(s) existed. The Thenns seem to scare the crap out of everyone else too.

[TheLastStark]

They do now, but with the NK theory that The Others had a peace treaty would suggest they are not the implacable enemy they are now seen as. We don't know how much has been forgotten since the Wall(s) existed. The Thenns seem to scare the crap out of everyone else too.

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

Sounds as if a female Other got on top of the wall(probably not as tall as it is now) and he chased her(indicating that she may have tried or feigned running away). It also sounds like he may have raped her but in doing so lost his soul(power of free will maybe) to her.

It doesn't sound like an alliance or peace treaty marriage.

[Snarky]

Two walls is an interesting idea. I don't agree with the destruction of the wall being the origins of giants waking (I belive this to actually be the waking of Greenseers).

Could there be a wall further north, closing off the Lands of Always Winter instead. I feel like this would be more plausible, or could it be in a region now void of any ice and cold having used all of it in the wall/ other way around; in an area where there is a great lake or ocean where the wall melted and flooded the land.

[anonnyscouse]

Two walls is an interesting idea. I don't agree with the destruction of the wall being the origins of giants waking (I belive this to actually be the waking of Greenseers).

Could there be a wall further north, closing off the Lands of Always Winter instead. I feel like this would be more plausible, or could it be in a region now void of any ice and cold having used all of it in the wall/ other way around; in an area where there is a great lake or ocean where the wall melted and flooded the land.

You mean like the neck? Admittedly not a lake or ocean, but wasn't it originaly totally dry land?

[TheLastStark]

Two walls is an interesting idea. I don't agree with the destruction of the wall being the origins of giants waking (I belive this to actually be the waking of Greenseers).

Could there be a wall further north, closing off the Lands of Always Winter instead. I feel like this would be more plausible, or could it be in a region now void of any ice and cold having used all of it in the wall/ other way around; in an area where there is a great lake or ocean where the wall melted and flooded the land.

Problem with the Greenseers is that they were already around for the peace treaty with the FM before the Others invaded. If there was a second wall and it was further north, it probably wouldn't have melted, and then there should be some NW there as well.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I feel the sudden urge to cry. This is getting worse day by day.

Who's to say that back when Night Watch was founded the wall was as it looked today? Such massive building required hundreds of years to complete.

For the Chinese to build their own wall, it took decades.

Thus it's not out of the box to think that when they founded the Night's Watch there were still several pieces of walls being constructed.

Of course, this is too plausible to be a theory, and I'm nothing more than a troll, so don't even bother answering me.

[Archmaester Drew]

I feel the sudden urge to cry. This is getting worse day by day.

Who's to say that back when Night Watch was founded the wall was as it looked today? Such massive building required hundreds of years to complete.

For the Chinese to build their own wall, it took decades.

Thus it's not out of the box to think that when they founded the Night's Watch there were still several pieces of walls being constructed.

Of course, this is too plausible to be a theory, and I'm nothing more than a troll, so don't even bother answering me.

Exactly. :)

As an archaeologist, I have a very hard time believing there was another wall with no traces left -- except an 's' in the Night's Watch oath. ;)

[TheLastStark]

I feel the sudden urge to cry. This is getting worse day by day.

Who's to say that back when Night Watch was founded the wall was as it looked today? Such massive building required hundreds of years to complete.

For the Chinese to build their own wall, it took decades.

Thus it's not out of the box to think that when they founded the Night's Watch there were still several pieces of walls being constructed.

Of course, this is too plausible to be a theory, and I'm nothing more than a troll, so don't even bother answering me.

until the Others were finally defeated by the Night's Watch at the Battle for the Dawn. After having pushed back the threat, the Wall was allegedly built by Bran the Builder in order to protect the Seven Kingdoms, should the Others ever return.

The NW was founded before the wall was constructed.