Theory Daenerys is the real Blackfyre (Possible SPOILERS)

[Joe Blackfyre]

Hello everyone, I have been lurking on the board since about 2010 and I was always hoping for my first post on this forum to be a good "worthy" one and hopefully this post is. You be the judge!

There is something that I have picked up on and that’s the collective hints, clues and symbolism related to Daenerys “Targaryen” not being who she says she is.

The description of Aegor Rivers (Bittersteel) that GRRM gave to the illustrator Amok was “similar to Conan the Barbarian.” When you combine this with the obvious similarities to Elric that Bloodraven has (albino, sorcerer, dark sword), you get a rather neat echo of the rivalry between the fandoms of two legendary fantasy figures. And of course when Conan and Elric met in the comics written by Roy Thomas they did not depart as friends. So far so good. This is the type of allusion we should expect from GRRM (see also Archmaester Rigney, the fort Oakenshield etc)….

Except what if it isn’t just an allusion to other fantasy series, but key to understanding the whole ASOIAF series?

If Bloodraven is connected to the Blackwoods, and the greenseers, and the watch, could he in some way symbolise Ice? His banner is a white dragon after all which kind of gives the game away about his storyline connecting to the North and fighting the Others. That’s something we wouldn’t necessarilly have instantly assumed if we read Dunk and Egg #3 before ASOIAF #5 (as indeed that’s how they line up in publication and chronological order).

So if Bloodraven’s banner is partly meant to be a clue to a future story (particularly if he has not just been involving himself with Bran but Jon’s destiny as well i.e. the raven who says "Jon Snow" and "King") are there any other clues to future events that GRRM placed around the same time period? We know he likes duallities (Ice and Fire, many twins, lead and deputy house rivalries) and he likes repeating themes (two Dances with Dragons, Larys+Varys, invasions of Dorne, new branches of old houses) So it is unlikely that only one of the Great Bastards banners is significant. But Bittersteel’s sigil is unimportant to events at the time of ASOIAF surely? It’s just a red horse with black dragon wings for a man who is meant to be similar in appearance and demeanour to Conan the Barbarian.

….Oh.

The minute I saw that, my mind started to spin and make more connections.

- Daemon Blackfyre married Rohanne of Tyrosh.

Rohanne = Rohan = horses = Dothraki symbolic link.

- Battle of Redgrass Field = Dothraki symbolic link again.

- The first Daenerys was born the same year as Bittersteel.

- It is pointedly said all Blackfyfes from the male line are dead, but no mention of the female line is given.

- The current lord of House Bracken only has daughters no sons. Again the emphasis on female descendants of the supporters of the Blackfyres.

- Daenerys is continuously refered to as “Daenerys Stormborn” which is a name which is extremely similar to all the extra names given to the Great Bastards. This emphasises her as something other than House Targaryen.

- It is continuously stated that Daenerys has “blood no man can question”. This is coming in the series where Arya wishes a stupid princess (her!) to get killed and Barristan says he will never again question the honour of sellswords. Words regularly come back to haunt the cast in ironic ways.

- Talking of Barristan and irony, it would be a supreme irony if the man who killed the last of the male line of House Blackfyre eneds up supporting someone from the female line without realising.

- Who could that female ancestor be? How about Calla Blackfyre the first daughter of Daemon who married Bittersteel? This would mean the symbolism links between Dany and Bittersteel actually have a more valid reason to be there. It would also explain why GRRM called the reader’s attention to Bittersteel’s skull smiling when literally every dead skull smiles.

- If Aegon the Conqueror had both Balerion the Black Dread and the sword Blackfyre, those are two potent symbols of the Targaryens. Daemon Blackfyre had the sword Blackfyre, not the dragon. Dany does not have the sword (yet) but has Drogon “the Black Dread born again” who happens in the pit to breathe “black fire.”

- In fact Drogon breathing black fire is technically mentioned three times in the chapter with Daznak’s pit. Black fire when the boar gets roasted, black flame on 2 men after Dany jumps in the pit, black fire again when Dany uses the whip. GRRM’s use of three as a deliberately foreshadowing device has been commented on before by other posters so I won’t go over that here, but really, can this possibly be a coincidence in a chapter we know has been cooking in different forms for 11 years? As we know this chapter would have opened Dany’s storyline in the original ADWD when the five-year-gap was still on, we know this is an extremely old chapter with lots of work likely done on it by GRRM. There is no logical reason for the average reader to assume this fire is coloured any other colour than regular fire – so why do we get this repetition?

- The actor chosen to play Khal Drogo on the TV went onto play Conan, and Khal Drogo as a character is very remisicent of Conan.

- Viserys received a golden crown, Bittersteel founded the Golden Company = two instances of “gold c___”, is this a subtle textual clue to the undercurrent of Dany’s storyline. Also note Dany’s “brother”, the one who was her closest family member for so long received gold poured over his head, and Bittersteel also had gold poured over his skull.

- Are there any other stories which GRRM may have liked in fantasy which also link to this theory? Well comic writer Chris Claremont was a friend of GRRM’s during the Eighties. They worked together on a X-Men charity comic and Claremont later contributed to Martin’s Wild Cards and the Willow book continuations (which heavily feature dragons and little people). Claremont had two creator-owned fantasy comics in the Eighties both of which may very well have had an influence of GRRM as one contained the adventures of a silver-haired warrior maiden in a Roman/Persian setting (Marada the She-Wolf) and the other involved the plots around a tourney with a secret plot to claim the English throne (The Black Dragon). What was the artist on these two comic series called? John BOLTON.

So, very possibly an influence then. Note that one story is a free-wheeling quest/roam through strange cities of Europe/The East, is very Conan heavy in style and stars a silver-haired heroine. The tone of Marada’s adventures across fictional Europe is very similar to Dany’s adventures in Essos in fact, down to a firm anti-slavery position and killing wizards. The other story is set in England around the Crusades and has a lot of similarities to the Westeros storyline, such as the emphasis on bargaining and secret plots/suspicion. I think there is an unintentional echo of the divide in nature of these two comic stories – for the Westeros storyline and the Essos storyline in ASOIAF.

- More on the Bloodraven/Elric comparision. Elric is an avatar of Michael Moorcock’s Eternal Champion, a literary figure who appears in many different types of worlds but which has many of the similar elements cross over (he may not always be an albino or sorcerer, but will usually have to save mankind, sometimes in a nasty way). The enemy of the Eternal Champion usually reappears in each world as a black sword, or a black jewel or government official wearing black (Miss Brunner in Jerry Cornelius). But usually a black sword. Most famously, Elric’s black sword which is called Stormbringer (which betrays him in the end).

I would say that Bloodraven is meant to be a tribute to Elric and not necessarily a canon version of the Eternal Champion himself. But that doesn’t mean that some of Moorcock’s ideas haven’t been adapted to lend deeper meaning to the background, similar to Bryan Talbot’s Luther Arkwright and Alan Moore’s John Constantine.

Now if we take Bloodraven’s version of the Eternal Champion’s enemy to not be a Black Sword this time around, but a family of warriors named after a black sword (Blackfyre), this adds a new dimension to his continuing violent campaign against them. Also note Elric’s sword was called Stormbringer and the name given to our Mother of Dragons is Daenerys Stormborn. A suitable name if she is connected to a house named after a dragonlord’s black sword!

- If this theory is true and she is Daenerys Blackfyre, her name would mirror Jon Snow’s name. Both surnames would relate to an element, and as a male/female couple are usually refered to as Mr and Mrs, when put together in that tradional pattern would reads as Snow and Blackfyre. Ice and Fire. Title drop everybody.

Then, recently, The World of Ice and Fire came out. With two covers, one in America (red with a black dragon on the front) one in Britain (blue with a white dragon on the front). Worth pointing out that Conan’s creator Robert E. Howard was American, and Elric’s creator Michael Moorcock was British, and the imagery of the WOIAF covers just magically happens to be similar to their characters. I don’t think this is a coincidence. I think that Martin isn’t just creating a rebuttal to ‘cliched fantasy’ in his mind, he is actually actually providing a rounded modern statement on all fantasy fiction through the ages.

And finally, the portrait of Barba Bracken in the book. Look at it. LOOK AT IT. She is a dead ringer for Emilia Clarke (good for Barba!). And who was Barba the mother of? Bittersteel!

Also note, the book ends with two very similar portraits of Dany and Jon. The style of these pictures is exactly the same, and both of these are close to Yandel’s message for King Tommen, the map of the crownlands, the list of official monarchs, and the three family trees. Clearly the fact that Tommen, Tyrion, Stannis, Faegon and Euron aren’t shown in this painting style or in this foreshadowing fashion is an indicator Jon and Dany are crucial to the story’s resolution.

But could there maybe be yet another clue? Any other pictures nearby the ones of both of our heroes? Well ignoring the row of shields right next to Jon going right and you see the Rhaegar/Robert fight. We all know how that links in with Jon symbolically. Going the other way, from Dany’s picture heading left we go smack bang into the summary for Asshai. Now we can all read this many different ways, but it is worth noting that the main colour of Asshai is black and that the ruined city of Stygai is a name extremely similar to Stygia which was a city of sorcerers in… guess what… the stories of the Conan the Barbarian.

To summarise (or tl;dr) we all know there is a massive secret at the heart of Jon’s storyline, and that GRRM loves writing about “bastards, cripples, and broken things”. Doesn’t it make sense that if he is planning to pull the rug from under Jon and challenge his identity that he would do the same to Dany? This doesn’t mean that Dany instantly becomes the victor in the battle for the Iron Throne, but it does tie her into a long line of precious unsuccessful claimants for the throne (Rhaenyra and her ‘blacks’, the Blackfyre pretenders) and there increases the sense of history and tragedy involved with the continuing battle for power. It means that all that backstory in the Dunk and Egg stories serves a real purpose in the main saga, and that Illyrio’s Aegon is just a clever red herring. (Possibly a Brightflame?)

There are probably more hints to back this up (I’m a bit tired) but now I would like to hear what everyone else thinks.

[Ser Not Appearing]

I wouldn't be surprised if a combination of the house with a red door and lemon trees (which sure seems like a clue for something not yet revealed) and Dany being born almost exactly 9 months after Aerys died ended up manifesting as something. Not sure I tend to buy into hidden symbolism like the rest of this but I've been known to be wrong.

[Bael's Bastard]

Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys, not a Blackfyre (who do not exist paternally when Dany was born).

[King of the Rock]

No. Your "clues" mean nothing. The Blackfyre male line dying out means nothing. If a Blackfyre lived to birth Daenerys, then a boy could have been born instead. Also, the point about Drogon's flames has nothing to do with the Blackfyre's. Drogon is Daenerys' Balerion. He's big (in comparison to her other dragons), his scales are black, and his flames are black. So were Balerion's. Daenerys was born on Dragonstone. At what point did a Blackfyre give birth to her? Also, had one given birth to her, then Viserys would have known about it. All that Dothraki symbolism also means nothing. She married a khal. Big whoop. She's not a Dothraki. Maybe you can argue that there's a Dothraki Blackfyre.

[DraculaAD1972]

Well done to the OP for exploring Moorcock's influence. Tolkiens influence on ASoIaF is negligible - Moorcock's is huge. Yet this fact goes unacknowledged most of the time, even by GRRM who is content to fan the false Tolkien flames as much as the rest, while neglecting to mention Moorcock. The first 2 chapters of Elric of Melnibone feel more like ASoIaF than any Tolkien.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

First, present a credible explanation how a Blackfyre visited Westeros to clandestinely impregnate Rhaella. So far you have some illustrations and "oh, how cool would it be, were it true".

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

To come to the aid of the OP.

It should be said that the total number of living people who can vouch that Daenerys is a true Targaryen is fewer than both, Faegon(Jon C. Varys, Illyrio) and Jon Snow(Howland Reed).

Through out the story the only person we met that knew Daenerys from birth was her mad brother Viserys.

For her to be a Blackfyre would be far simpler than the Piss-Water prince story line.

Instead of just her mother dying in child birth, both baby and mother die. Viserys flees to free cities and Daenerys is replaced with the child of a Blackfyre.

Far easier to pull off and believe than the Miracle in Maegor's Holdfast.

[TallTyrion]

To come to the aid of the OP.

It should be said that the total number of living people who can vouch that Daenerys is a true Targaryen is fewer than both, Faegon(Jon C. Varys, Illyrio) and Jon Snow(Howland Reed).

Through out the story the only person we met that knew Daenerys from birth was her mad brother Viserys.

For her to be a Blackfyre would be far simpler than the Piss-Water prince story line.

Instead of just her mother dying in child birth, both baby and mother die. Viserys flees to free cities and Daenerys is replaced with the child of a Blackfyre.

For easier to pull off and believe than the Miracle in Maegor's Holdfast.

Also Rhaellas's entire household at Dragstone, the Maester who delivered the child, and the entire garrison who was there at the time and willing to sell her to Stannis.

There's also zero motivation to fake a girl child when Viserrys lives since women can't inherit the Iron Throne.

[Joe Blackfyre]

I think we all agree GRRM likes to foreshadow things. The Red Wedding was extremely foreshadowed. The deaths of Ned and Bobby Bed were foreshadowed by the death of mama direwolf. Arguably Arya's death was foreshadowed with Jon's comment about her frozen body. The whole R+L=J theory revolves and relies not on direct proof given by characters dialogue that lead us to the conclusion, but from logical deductions we the reader are able to make.

For example we would think "why does Ned keep thinking about Lyanna asking him to promise her something all throughout the first book, when he is a character who gets killed in the first book? Isn't there a tighter way to tell his sad backstory and couldn't we use our time with him to think about other things. Unless this memory is very important." Similarly the only person who would make honorable Ned not tell Catelyn who Jon's mother was (why not say, if the woman was unimportant?) would be Lyanna.

Both these instances are not something which are presented to the reader as undeniable fact but something which is lying in wait ready for when the author requires it, in order to be a surprise. Like Chekov's Gun (but with a longer waiting time). Just as the Red Wedding/Ned's death/the taking of Astapor were surprises to most readers. The reason why there are so much prophecies in this series (such as Patchface, Maggy the Frog, the House of the Undying, Stallion, PTWP etc) is because Martin wants to make us think and discuss. He was a champion chess player when he was young, and I think this is not just a story about a game for power, the story itself is a game he is playing with his readers. Look how much continuing importance he places on mysteries, bias, prejudice, propaganda, control of written history (the maester in recent novellas) and the entire POV structure where individual characters do not have the info we the reader have with our "birds eye view" (excuse the pun).

The lack of definite, smoking gun proofs is part of the point of ASOIAF. Just as we will not get confirmation whether any of the gods are real. We will probably not know if Daeron was the son of Aemon and Nerys. We will probably not know for definite that the Faceless Men destroyed Valyria (that hasn't been clearly proven by the Kindly Man, just implied to an impressionable young acolyte). Around the end of ASOS we didn't know it was Lysa who poisoned Jon Arryn for Littlefinger, we all (plausibly) thought it was the Lannisters. Our deductions made logical sense until something new was revealed by the author, and the fact that he's done this several times means the possibility is strong that he will do it again.

On this messageboard there have been many posts about "there are no lemon trees in Braavos". Dany's judgement is routinely criticised by many of the posters, and her appraisal of the Starks ("Usurper's dogs!") is rightly ridiculed. But it makes sense in terms of the limited knowledge she has, and her repeating it foolishly brings our attention to the fact her knowledge is limited. Knowing the stupidity of Viserys and the meekness of "first chapter" Daenerys (who has probably been molested by Viserys continuously as she grew up and certainly suffered from Stockholm Syndrome well before she met Drogo) is it unrealistic to suppose that the haziness and fog around Dany's childhood memories are indicators that we should not take the immediate portrayal of the Dany's origin as the unvarnished truth? Wouldn't you ignore painful memories growing up on the road with someone like Viserys?

"If I look back I am lost" is a recurring phrase in Dany's story, similar to Jon being called "Lord Snow" from the first book and "you know nothing Jon Snow" from Ygritte (probably a sideways hint at his parentage). A reasonable hint that there is something dark in Dany's past we have not found out about yet, at least to me.

My suspicion is that the Real Dany/Blackfyre Dany swap happened at some point after the exile from Dragonstone. the mystery cloaked around the house with a red door and lemon tree (and the fact GRRM has chosen to repeat edly point out there are no lemon trees in Braavos (for example in a TWOW preview chapter) to deliberately call our attention to this.) It is also extremely handy that Viserys is dead now and that we the reader have all these extra characters stating loudly and proudly that "Daenerys is the real dragon", "Daenerys is Azor Ahai", "Daenerys is the PTWP", "Daenerys uses sex and blood magic for thrills". There is so much wrong and wild information flying around about Dany in the book world (due to hype or vested interests) that it is not an accident from a story construction perspective. We are meant to question this. and whether if these characters are wrong, could we be wrong?

Or, if we don't question it, meant to be shocked when the metaphorical sword falls down, ala Ned Stark at Baelor.

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

Also Rhaellas's entire household at Dragstone, the Maester who delivered the child, and the entire garrison who was there at the time and willing to sell her to Stannis.

There's also zero motivation to fake a girl child when Viserrys lives since women can't inherit the Iron Throne.

I agree no reason to fake a girl with no claim.

The Maester is not on Dragonstone last I checked.

As for the selling her part.....I totally forgot that. Congrats you win. :bowdown:

But it would still be awesome if her back story wasn't so clear. :devil:

[King of the Rock]

First, present a credible explanation how a Blackfyre visited Westeros to clandestinely impregnate Rhaella. So far you have some illustrations and "oh, how cool would it be, were it true".

His theory is actually directed at there only being female Blackfyre's. So, no Rhaella.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

His theory is actually directed at there only being female Blackfyre's. So, no Rhaella.

That's not what "extinguished in male line" means. There could be aplenty male descendants from Daemon I (and, according to a popular theory, Varys and Young Griff are that), just none claiming that inheritance through their fathers.

[Ser Duncan The Average]

Right or wrong (and I would love it if you were right) I have gotta give a round of applause to the OP for the detail and research that went into this theory.

[Joe Blackfyre]

His theory is actually directed at there only being female Blackfyre's. So, no Rhaella.

The "female line" that is pointedly not stated as being ended by Barristan during the WO9PK, would come through the female heir after all the other male heirs have been killed (ie someone from a daughter of Daemon as opposed to a son). So there could still have been male Blackfyres involved, they would just descend from Bittersteel or a non-BF on their fathers side. But I doubt Bittersteel would insist on the heirs he produced through Calla changing their name from Blackfyre.

All the information about Blackfyres is too detailed for not to be practically useful or relevant to one of the main ASOIAF books. But I think Young Griff is as much a distraction for Daenerys as the "Young Wolf" was for Jon Snow. We thought Robb Stark could win (and that he should win)... and then he didn't. And then most of the Robb fans transferred their love to Jon.

Young Griff travelling with the golden company is meant to make us think he's the Blackfyre heir, but that was never a done deal. The link to the GC came through JonCon, who even in the chapter worries about the loyalty of the GC and whether they will follow Young Griff. Their leader Harry does not sound like a firm Blackfyre supporter, and reference is given to the idea "red or black, a dragon is a dragon." The GC doesn't sound particularly loyal to the BFs at this point, they just want homes in Westeros. So why would Bittersteel be smiling at these worn-out soldiers? Or was the author trying to say he was smiling at something else.

Young Griff is the decoy protagonist for the Blackfyre's from the readers guided understanding. He is the legitimisation for the slow introduction of Blackfyre backstory into the world via Jaime POV, Dun and Egg, the app, WOIAF etc. Because if we got all this info in the 5th book and there wasn't a BF heir we the readers knew about, we'd all be pretty suspicious. This way, we are guided to form the wrong conclusion in our minds, whilst nothing is being promised to us that GRRM cannot deliver. We have our excuse to reveal more BF info, and a reason to slowly assume a dance will be upcoming between Young Griff as a Blackfyre and "Dany the True"...

In reality I think the final battle (and the true "Second Dance") will be between two "bastards" who have had their own stories each removed from the main theatre of the game and both dealt with supernatural enemies first before facing each other. Jon Snow vs Daenerys Blackfyre. The continuation of Robert's Rebellion, the Blackfyre Rebellions, the first Dance regarding a woman's right to rule, and the eventual backlash against Torrhen's decision to kneel to Targaryens. It will all build up to a head, but I have no idea who will survive.

[Elm Tree]

What would it add to the story? It's good as it is. Dany and fAegon can dance, Jon is needed elsewhere anyway.

[Joe Blackfyre]

Right or wrong (and I would love it if you were right) I have gotta give a round of applause to the OP for the detail and research that went into this theory.

Thank you very much! It's nice to know it came across as clear and not strange rambling. It is probably rambling but that's how I write lol. But it didn't scare people off by being too nutty or put people off by sounding arrogant. I was aware people have sounded like that in the past, so I wanted to keep the enthuisasm grounded and not be pushy.

I mean, there could be other possible twists to Dany's story (the Bonifer Hasty theory is one I like, the R+L=D doesn't convince), but I think GRRM does too many parallels in his stories to not include this idea of "bastard lineage" as a character feature when Dany along with Jon is such a classic "fantasy protagonist" and who the readers expect to be the hero of the book. I think a background twist of some kind with her character is 99% likely and this is the most engaging twist that I can think of.

Thanks for the kind comment.

[TallTyrion]

What motivation would anyone have for falsifying Dany's identity ?

[complexphoenix]

This is even more absurd and ridiculous than all the other crazy theories of Dany's parentage. You broke Occam's Razor in so many pieces I'm amazed you still have enough fingers to type. Get over it already and accept that A+R=D.

[Joe Blackfyre]

You could say "what motivation could anyone have for falsifying Young Griff's identity?"

The answer to both is power. Whether or not Varys and Illyrio are definite BF supporters (which again we are lead to believe just through Illyrio saying "some contracts are written in blood") any BF supporter could have easily switched two similar looking targaryen children at a time when their protector was sick and the elder brother was an impatient moron (probably still bitter about his mother's death in childbirth). It's not as if Dany particularly matters to V&I anyway - real prince or pisswater prince, all their plans revolved around molding Young Griff into their figurehead. Viserys was their tool to draw away asssassin and cause havok (ie hire Dothraki). Our Dany was barely an afterthought for V&I... until she hatched dragons.

And of course, to anyone who didn't know about Young Griff (ie most of the world) a Valyrian-looking girl in position of Daenerys had the chance to eventually either be the Queen of a restored Viserys, or a puppet Queen in her own right should Viserys prove unco-operative.

I don't know the exact answers. There is probably more to it than I know, just as there may be more to R+L=J than we know, even though that theory is as old as dirt by now!

[Liver & onions]

The backlash to the op is why this board is so dull. Chill out people. It's a different take. If you don't like it, go back to jerking off to the theories the board accepts like the GNC, Wall as Lightbringer etc.