The Others: Who are they and what are they up to?

[Barri_The_Bold]

The Others are a branched off group of The First Men. They came into their powers when they ventured north into the heart of winter/darkness, where they were either granted, or took, the power to become Other. They are currently being led by the Last Hero and his 12 companions, 13th Lord Commander Stark, beholder of Ice, the ancestral Stark blade. They still uphold the night's oath, while trying to reclaim the wall that was taken from them. They steal craster's/wildling's boys, so technically, they dont father any of them, and again, they steal boys, so no girls to wive. Theyre on the move, nomadic, and the land beyond the wall is just snow and ice, so technically, they hold no lands either.

The time will come when the truth is revealed. Just you wait and see. There is no night's queen. It was a lie. An excuse, to exile LC Stark. If you think im wrong, look back, read back, either the show OR the books. Not once, did you see a female Other. Wights, yes, but not Other.

The Lord Commander is a Stark, and further, his rightful burial place is currently being blocked by a huge chunk of ice, of which, Bran The Builder took credit for. Sure, he may have constructed the forts and castles, but the wall itself? No. Taking credit for someone else's magnificence is no way to become legend.

"All crows are liars" - Old Nan

/end

So you're saying that the Night's King and his companions were the first Others? But who did the First Men and the CotF fight during the Long Night then? And how can the Last Hero be the 13th LC and the Night's King when that was a while after the Battle for the Dawn? And Ice was carried by Ned and has been molten down to Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, so the Night's King can't have it...

The part about the NW oath is interesting though, I have never seen it that way. But why should they hide for millenia only to fight the NW now, when all the people who may have wronged them are dead? Where's the sense in that?

Well, we hardly saw any Other but for the ones in the AGoT prologue and the one that Sam killed. So we can't assume there are no female Other's. And we can't tell if the Night's Queen is real or not, so we simply just don't know.

So who do you think built the Wall? I personally think the CotF built it

[Hagorn Icebeard]

So you're saying that the Night's King and his companions were the first Others? But who did the First Men and the CotF fight during the Long Night then? And how can the Last Hero be the 13th LC and the Night's King when that was a while after the Battle for the Dawn? And Ice was carried by Ned and has been molten down to Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, so the Night's King can't have it...

The part about the NW oath is interesting though, I have never seen it that way. But why should they hide for millenia only to fight the NW now, when all the people who may have wronged them are dead? Where's the sense in that?

Well, we hardly saw any Other but for the ones in the AGoT prologue and the one that Sam killed. So we can't assume there are no female Other's. And we can't tell if the Night's Queen is real or not, so we simply just don't know.

So who do you think built the Wall? I personally think the CotF built it

He was talking about the real Ice. Eddard's Ice is only 400 year old valyrian steel sword, but the name 'Ice' is older. So the original Ice was passed from a King of Winter to his son until it was lost somewhere.

[Blazfemur]

So you're saying that the Night's King and his companions were the first Others? But who did the First Men and the CotF fight during the Long Night then? And how can the Last Hero be the 13th LC and the Night's King when that was a while after the Battle for the Dawn? And Ice was carried by Ned and has been molten down to Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, so the Night's King can't have it...

The part about the NW oath is interesting though, I have never seen it that way. But why should they hide for millenia only to fight the NW now, when all the people who may have wronged them are dead? Where's the sense in that?

Well, we hardly saw any Other but for the ones in the AGoT prologue and the one that Sam killed. So we can't assume there are no female Other's. And we can't tell if the Night's Queen is real or not, so we simply just don't know.

So who do you think built the Wall? I personally think the CotF built it

they are not the first Others, no. The Last Hero and his 12 companions succumbed to the Others, per Old Nan's tale to Bran, and what is written in TWOIAF.

Further, Ice, Eddard Stark's valyrian steel blade, wasn't the first Ice. Ice, the ancestral stark blade, was lost aeons ago. I theorize it wasnt lost, but was carried with Lord Commander Stark when he was exiled. I also theorize we'll see it once more, when he makes his book debut.

Personally, it's a huge wall made of ice. I think the Others built it, then lost it. When they lost it, they had Bran build castyles and forts, and then they took ownership of it

[Barri_The_Bold]

they are not the first Others, no. The Last Hero and his 12 companions succumbed to the Others, per Old Nan's tale to Bran, and what is written in TWOIAF.

Further, Ice, Eddard Stark's valyrian steel blade, wasn't the first Ice. Ice, the ancestral stark blade, was lost aeons ago. I theorize it wasnt lost, but was carried with Lord Commander Stark when he was exiled. I also theorize we'll see it once more, when he makes his book debut.

Personally, it's a huge wall made of ice. I think the Others built it, then lost it. When they lost it, they had Bran build castyles and forts, and then they took ownership of it

So do you think that these (plus Craster's boys) are the only Others left or do you think there could still be some who fought in the Battle for the Dawn? They could be immortal for all we know...

Okay, so the original Ice is lost. Could Ice be Lightbringer? Since you believe the NK was the Last Hero who many believe is named Azor Ahai as well only by different people. Other people believe Dawn, the ancestral blade of the Daynes is Lightbringer.

Why should the Others build a huge wall that they (seemingly) can't pass? Or why a wall at all? What do they win by that? Humans can easily pass it, so it's not protecting the Others against them.

[Cz99]

They are servants of the Great Other; a First Man who delved into forbidden magic and became nigh-god-like. He offered his gift to men who would follow him and eventually they became the creatures they are now. The magic was first used to survive the harsh cold weather 'cause you know - it's cold up North. But it froze their humanity, but they retained one human-idea and goal; conquest. They failed the first time due to lack of numbers and the fact that their magic wasn't as good as the Children's. But now, years after they were all but forgotten - they're ready to make another attempt at takin' over.

[Roose on the Loose]

The Others have some sense of strategy because they planted Othor near CB and programmed him to kill Jeor.

But what can they manufacture beyond ice swords? A bow and arrow requires materials with properties very different from ice. Let's say the watch sends a phalanx of archers beyond the Wall with flaming arrows for the wights and dragonglass headed arrows for the White Walkers. What's their counter move?

I assume that's why Lord Snow was placing so much emphasis on archery practice.

[Blazfemur]

So do you think that these (plus Craster's boys) are the only Others left or do you think there could still be some who fought in the Battle for the Dawn? They could be immortal for all we know...

Okay, so the original Ice is lost. Could Ice be Lightbringer? Since you believe the NK was the Last Hero who many believe is named Azor Ahai as well only by different people. Other people believe Dawn, the ancestral blade of the Daynes is Lightbringer.

Why should the Others build a huge wall that they (seemingly) can't pass? Or why a wall at all? What do they win by that? Humans can easily pass it, so it's not protecting the Others against them.

This is just my own personal opinion, but, I think it has to do with the variants in the blood. Targaryens could manipulate dragons due to their purer bloodline than valyrians, though, valyrians could also ride dragons as well. the targaryen incest, is what made their bloodlines more pure and refrained from contamination of other lesser houses. it's the potency of their blood, that allows them to control dragons betterthan other valyrian houses.

it's this same ideology, that i personally attribute to craster's blatant incest. that perhaps the more pure the first men bloodline is, the more liable they are to inherit the "ice gift," from another Other. I dont think Craster was just strictly being a pig (he is, dont get me wrong) when he was threatening the watch from sleeping with his daughters. he was protecting whatever agreement he has with The Others that keep him alive, he was protecting the potency and purity of the first men bloodline from being corrupted by outside houses that arent first men blooded.

In regards to the wall, i believe the Others built it, or even much rather, cast it, up as a physical barrier. When the COTF alligned with men to drive back th Others, i believe they then put up the magical part of the barrier.

further, we have no evidence that the wall itself is anything more than, a physical barrier. it's not bloodraven's cave. remember, how did jon burn his hand? a Wight walked through to mormont's tower. there's no evidence the wall is anything more than, just a physical wall.

[Snark_Tamer]

They're snow elves*. The Unseelie to the CotF seelie.

They're eerily beautiful but also sinister and deadly. They steal children, but unlike the fairies of folklore they do not replace the children with one of their own disguised as the child but corrupt the child into being one of their own. They also bare a strong resemblance to the Cailleach of Celtic mythology. Who was a hag that brought winter and one of the most important gods.

I went to look up Cailleach, as I hadn't heard of them--they usher in winter (and are the predecessor of groundhog's day, but never mind)... They are also FEMALE (the Night's King was seduced by one, yes?)

I really like this idea in this way: I think the end goal is BALANCE. The extremes are bad (shown most clearly in religion, but I think The Great Other is "the evil" according to R'hallor... but I don't LIKE R'hallor much... all that blood sacrifice and burning doesn't seem so healthy to me... But the extreme on one side maybe requires the extreme on the other, so if there was some sort of truce, nobody would need to be so extreme.

As for where they came from, I haven't a clue... Dawn (the blade) defeated them before, yes? And Dawn was forged from a meteor that came from the sky. Maybe they rode in on that.

[The Reckoner]

Do the others even have sexes?

[Blazfemur]

Do the others even have sexes?

yes, and this is an essential piece of the puzzle -- They're all male. Not only are they all male, every baby transaction we've ever witnessed, has been male. There is NO female specified.

[Snark_Tamer]

yes, and this is an essential piece of the puzzle -- They're all male. Not only are they all male, every baby transaction we've ever witnessed, has been male. There is NO female specified.

Except there has: The Other who seduced the Night's King. She was a female.

[Blazfemur]

Except there has: The Other who seduced the Night's King. She was a female.

I don't buy it. And i know your first rebuttal: it's how the legend goes. right?

No, i dont buy it for one second. Everything we know, contradicts there being a female. It's the basis for the old night's watch for exiling lc stark. then, furthermore, we know they purposelydestroyed the very records that would have contradicted his character and what really happened (Sam to Jon, in the nw library, told him the records only went so far back, that they were either lost, burned or destroyed)

i dont buy it, im sorry i dont. i know it's how the legend goes, butthe legend in itself, was by the very same group that exiled him using THAT as their primary excuse. combine that with the fact we have NEVER seen a female, nor them abducting a female, hell even the BLOODline is named first "men."

im sorry im going to go with my gut here, my gut, and old nan "All crows are liars."

i dont buy it. no female. prove me wrong other than word-of-mouth of the night's watch.

the same night's watch that backstabbed lord commander snow. you think they're going to tell great deeds of his accomplishments with the wildlings? NO! theyre going to do the same thing to him that the old watch did to lord commander stark. theyll villainize his name, erase his records, and make their own to suit and justify what they did.

[Barri_The_Bold]

it's this same ideology, that i personally attribute to craster's blatant incest. that perhaps the more pure the first men bloodline is, the more liable they are to inherit the "ice gift," from another Other. I dont think Craster was just strictly being a pig (he is, dont get me wrong) when he was threatening the watch from sleeping with his daughters. he was protecting whatever agreement he has with The Others that keep him alive, he was protecting the potency and purity of the first men bloodline from being corrupted by outside houses that arent first men blooded.

further, we have no evidence that the wall itself is anything more than, a physical barrier. it's not bloodraven's cave. remember, how did jon burn his hand? a Wight walked through to mormont's tower. there's no evidence the wall is anything more than, just a physical wall.

But how would Craster benefit from that? I get where you're going, but the Targaryens had (more or less) control over the dragons and used them to forge a single kingdom out of seven former, but what use are Craster's sons to him after they turned Other? Doesn't seem like they made him powerful or anything. I think he just sacrificed them to save his own skin...

Well, that dead NW brother (forgot his name) was carried through the Wall while he wasn't a wight yet, he was only dead. So we're not sure whether the Wall is just a physical barrier or has magic woven into it. But if it's only a ohysical barrier, why haven't the Others cast it down yet? It's made of ice, the element the Other's are most familiar with and are able to control.

No, i dont buy it for one second. Everything we know, contradicts there being a female. It's the basis for the old night's watch for exiling lc stark. then, furthermore, we know they purposelydestroyed the very records that would have contradicted his character and what really happened (Sam to Jon, in the nw library, told him the records only went so far back, that they were either lost, burned or destroyed)

im sorry im going to go with my gut here, my gut, and old nan "All crows are liars."

i dont buy it. no female. prove me wrong other than word-of-mouth of the night's watch.

the same night's watch that backstabbed lord commander snow. you think they're going to tell great deeds of his accomplishments with the wildlings? NO! theyre going to do the same thing to him that the old watch did to lord commander stark. theyll villainize his name, erase his records, and make their own to suit and justify what they did.

Why are you so sure that the Night's King was a Stark? Only because Old Nan told so in her story? That's only what she believes, but she doesn't know. It could have also been a Bolton or an Umber or any other house from the North or even from entire Westeros. Only because the King in the North and the King beyond the Wall fought him together? He was a threat to all of them, so they had a temporal alliance to defeat him. So I don't get why you're so sure that the NK was a Stark

[Blazfemur]

But how would Craster benefit from that? I get where you're going, but the Targaryens had (more or less) control over the dragons and used them to forge a single kingdom out of seven former, but what use are Craster's sons to him after they turned Other? Doesn't seem like they made him powerful or anything. I think he just sacrificed them to save his own skin...

Well, that dead NW brother (forgot his name) was carried through the Wall while he wasn't a wight yet, he was only dead. So we're not sure whether the Wall is just a physical barrier or has magic woven into it. But if it's only a ohysical barrier, why haven't the Others cast it down yet? It's made of ice, the element the Other's are most familiar with and are able to control.

Why are you so sure that the Night's King was a Stark? Only because Old Nan told so in her story? That's only what she believes, but she doesn't know. It could have also been a Bolton or an Umber or any other house from the North or even from entire Westeros. Only because the King in the North and the King beyond the Wall fought him together? He was a threat to all of them, so they had a temporal alliance to defeat him. So I don't get why you're so sure that the NK was a Stark

ill try to answer one by one (im actually at work lol, gimme a minute or two)

Craster benefits, by not being killed, simply put. Look at things as they are. The Others leave wildlings alone, that pay the specified blood tribute -- it's like a contract, an agreement, of sorts. Deep down inside, i feel the Stark's do it as well (though that's getting into crackpot territory, and here's why

"There MUST always be a Stark, in Winterfell." When Ned said it, he never said it seemingly out of pride, he always said it, as if it were a warning. "There MUST.." as if he were reading the stipulations of an old contract everyone else forgot about. What if it's like, a ward? Like one MUST remain there, as their own tribute. Whether Ned knew it or not, every decapitation he did, he cleaned his blade by the weirwood, praying, to the old gods. He was making tribute there, as well.

The Targaryens were of Valyria, and if you think about it, in the past when the andals came, some first men kneeled (today's northern houses just south of the wall), while the other first men rebelled against kneeling (today's wildling's/Others). The wall literally separates those that kneeled from those that didn't. TO THIS DAY.

We begin to see things coming together. the first men that kneeled and the andals, opposing the first men that refused to kneel.

remember, there are a whole bunch of agreements and alliances in place through time, too. between the children of the forest, how they armed the old night's watch with obsidian, if there is magic within the wall this would be an excellent time to cast it on there. quite simply we arent given a lot of information, on my end and yours.

following is theory, and theory alone:

the 13th lord commander being a stark just ties everything together, simply put. again, it's still theory until it's written down. but we're always told, that we should heed old nan's words. "Some believe it to be an umber or a bolton, but im certain he was a stark." im pretty sure thats how it's worded. it would explain how Ice "disappeared" long ago. Further, it's a backup plan to legitimize Jon as a Stark if it should play out that way, further, Jon would be named heir to become the next night's king (crackpot alert). Jon would inherit the stark ancestral blade, and when Daenerys finally goes mad and jumps off the deep end, who's to save westeros from all that fire and blood? Who could put out such flame? If he is a Stark, he belongs in winterfell's crypts. There's a huge wall blocking his path. At the VERY least, there's motive alone. IF there is a queen, (i dont think there is), but IF there is/was, suppose she's locked up, buried, or imprisoned in winterfell's depths? more motive. so many possibilities, and only possible, if he's a stark. I think he is, but again, still theory (for now)

i digress. i think it's boredom, waiting for the next book.

in conclusion, how my mind personally perceives it all:

1. The Night's King, exiled wrongly

2. the nights watch, villainizes his name, accusing him of laying with a female Other (doesnt exist)

3. the nights watch destroys all record of account for lord commander stark, so theres nothing to contradict what they say

4. TNK, follows the very basic tennets of the night's oath

5. If TNK is a Stark, i would bet money that he wields Ice, the long-lost Stark blade

6. Ice, the very name, feels, like an Other weapon, perhaps even MADE, of Ice.

7. The Night's King = The Last Hero

8. Others: cast the wall, then lost it when the children alligned and bestowed obsidian to those that drove them back

[Durran Durrandon]

The Others are children stolen from their mothers and turned into cold blooded killers, kind of like the sons of nobles fostered to other houses where they serve as squires. It's a theme.

I suspect the first Others were First Men, with Green Seer abilities using magic to gain power and this somehow caused the Long Night and the unbalancing of the seasons.

I think Blazfemur's theories are a stretch but I think that he has focused on details that will eventually be important to the real answers. It isn't a coincidence that the last hero was one of thirteen companies and the Night King was the thirteenth lord commander. The Night Queen is a significant anomaly and her being female will matter.

I think this will ultimately connect to the myth of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor.

[Blazfemur]

The Others are children stolen from their mothers and turned into cold blooded killers, kind of like the sons of nobles fostered to other houses where they serve as squires. It's a theme.

I suspect the first Others were First Men, with Green Seer abilities using magic to gain power and this somehow caused the Long Night and the unbalancing of the seasons.

The forces of the Others now, yes, are the babies that were given as tribute. The original Others had to obtain their power from somewhere. I would suggest where the shadowlands and beyond-the-wall meet, where the heart of darkness meets the heart of winter. Travel northwest enough on the westerosi map, furthest beyond the wall, you end up southeast, on the map. And whats the southeasternmost portion of the map? The Shadowlands. Asshai. It's the basis of what Quaithe was trying to tell Daenerys on how she should get to westeros (she undoubtedly wont follow her advice though, i think she'll ally with victarian and use his iron fleet to transport her forces).

I agree that Others were a branched off tribe of First Men (further bolstered by Maester Fomas' interpretation in TWOIAF). As we've seen on the show (dont take it to heart though), the power can be transferred. Further, if they were justordinary first men, then the powers of Other were either granted to them, or, they took it. Again, id place the location of this in the northernmost area where beyond-the-wall meets the shadowlands.

Another user on here (Ser Cold Fingers?) suggested that the Shadowlands are merely a land enduring their own personal Long Night. This was an amazing synopsis and one ive never heard before, and i fully support it.

[Durran Durrandon]

The forces of the Others now, yes, are the babies that were given as tribute. The original Others had to obtain their power from somewhere. I would suggest where the shadowlands and beyond-the-wall meet, where the heart of darkness meets the heart of winter. Travel northwest enough on the westerosi map, furthest beyond the wall, you end up southeast, on the map. And whats the southeasternmost portion of the map? The Shadowlands. Asshai. It's the basis of what Quaithe was trying to tell Daenerys on how she should get to westeros (she undoubtedly wont follow her advice though, i think she'll ally with victarian and use his iron fleet to transport her forces).

I call this the Columbus fallacy. Yes you can reach any point in a globe by going far enough in more than one direction, but that doesn't mean it is practical. Columbus didn't make it to China by sailing west. The shadow lands are very far from the northern poll. The is a sea that separates the land mass of Essos from the northern poll.

[BettyCrocker]

Guys, they're just trying to teach the people of Westeros how to parent their children better. The cold just so happens to follow them.

Listen, all the children they fostered have grown up and seem healthy and happy enough for someone in the "middle ages". They come back for their brothers to be fostered with them (rather than sisters as well) because this is before the rise of feminist thinking and sexual divides were a large, prominent feature with men.

When they attacked Sam and his group, they were simply trying to protect their brother from perceived threats to their lineage/heritage. The little skirmish at the beginning of aGoT was simply a misunderstanding. One of the sons was asking if the brother of the Night's Watch had killed the people in the forest, and when he drew his sword, they took it as a "yes".

I, for one, plan to welcome our new overlords with my first born son, for they can do no wrong and

oh my god help mem1 th ey have me typkjb this

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH.....

[roxWolfox]

Guys, they're just trying to teach the people of Westeros how to parent their children better. The cold just so happens to follow them.

Listen, all the children they fostered have grown up and seem healthy and happy enough for someone in the "middle ages". They come back for their brothers to be fostered with them (rather than sisters as well) because this is before the rise of feminist thinking and sexual divides were a large, prominent feature with men.

When they attacked Sam and his group, they were simply trying to protect their brother from perceived threats to their lineage/heritage. The little skirmish at the beginning of aGoT was simply a misunderstanding. One of the sons was asking if the brother of the Night's Watch had killed the people in the forest, and when he drew his sword, they took it as a "yes".

I, for one, plan to welcome our new overlords with my first born son, for they can do no wrong and

oh my god help mem1 th ey have me typkjb this

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH.....

:eek:

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

They're snow elves*. The Unseelie to the CotF seelie.

They're eerily beautiful but also sinister and deadly. They steal children, but unlike the fairies of folklore they do not replace the children with one of their own disguised as the child but corrupt the child into being one of their own. They also bare a strong resemblance to the Cailleach of Celtic mythology. Who was a hag that brought winter and one of the most important gods.

*Not elves as in immortal Tolkienesque archers but as in "fair folk". Nature spirits that live inside stones and cliffs and trees. More like the Hidden Folk of Icelandic folk lore or the basically every creature in Irish and Scottish folklore.

Yeah. Exactly.

Unseelie and Seelie Elves. That is a way to describe the Others and the Children.

Although this has just come to me, the Others are no worse then the humans to the Children, we both destroy the Weirwood trees. We with fire, they with ice.