Alternate Path - Tyrion, Son of Kevan

[Hashasheen]

Let's say Tyrion Lannister is born to Kevan Lannister and his wife as their oldest son, and that Joanna Lannister died birthing a stillborn child or whatever.

With Tyrion born as Tywin's nephew, not responsible for his wife's death, not a focus of ire for Cersei, and not Jaime's little brother, how much of an effect does this have on the character and the setting. Would Kevan be a far better dad than Tywin, or would his no-backbone nature mean that any disapproval of him that Tywin might have mean ill?

Thoughts?

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

My guess is Kevan is willing to give Tyrion a fair shake at life, he may even find a master at arms who can rear Tyrion for battle, and accepts him as his heir. Without the enmity of Joanna's death, Cersei views Tyrion as inferior but doesn't really care and Tywin doesn't really give a shit about him, same as he doesn't really care that much about Lancel.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Let's say Tyrion Lannister is born to Kevan Lannister and his wife as their oldest son, and that Joanna Lannister died birthing a stillborn child or whatever.

With Tyrion born as Tywin's nephew, not responsible for his wife's death, not a focus of ire for Cersei, and not Jaime's little brother, how much of an effect does this have on the character and the setting. Would Kevan be a far better dad than Tywin, or would his no-backbone nature mean that any disapproval of him that Tywin might have mean ill?

Thoughts?

If Tyrion was next in line after Kevan then off course he would take a huge interest in his nephews life. Tywin seems to actually be looking out for all his nephews and nieces. While Gerion went looking for lost treasure it has been Tywin making sure his bastard daughter is being cared for and has even arranged a good marriage for her. The same with Tygetts son and it would be the same if Tyrion was his nephew.

I'm also not sure why you dont think Kevan has a backbone. In AFFC with Jaime and Cersei he does more than enough to show he has backbone, as he does in the epilogue of ADWD.

The two biggest stumbling blocks for Tyrion is his very public reliance on whores, which Tywin is not going to be happy about no matter if he is his son or nephew* and the question of 'healthy' offspring. They are actually two areas Tyrion could have solved himself but never felt the need to change his lifestyle.

*Tyrions biggest mistake when it comes to inheriting Casterly Rock was asking for it as soon as he saw his father again. Cersei had told Tywin about how Tyrion threatened Tommens life over her treatment of his whore which would have reminded Tywin of his father and his awful rule.

My guess is Kevan is willing to give Tyrion a fair shake at life, he may even find a master at arms who can rear Tyrion for battle, and accepts him as his heir. Without the enmity of Joanna's death, Cersei views Tyrion as inferior but doesn't really care and Tywin doesn't really give a shit about him, same as he doesn't really care that much about Lancel.

Tyrion had military training at Casterly Rock. Tywin had specially made armour made for him as well, he was bound to have had the Master of Arms train him.

The trouble is that the majority of other nobles go off and become squires at an early age which was not going to happen with Tyrion, for obvious reasons, and he was only going to be able to learn so much in training.

I'm not sure where this idea that Tywin doesnt give a shit about Tyrion, or Lancel, comes from.

[James Steller]

It's hard to tell with Kevan. Next to Tywin and Cersei he seems like a very reasonable and good man, but on the other hand, look at how Lancel turned out.

But if Tyrion is Kevan's son, and not the cause of Joanna's death, then yeah, he'd have had a much happier life. Maybe Kevan would have even allowed Tyrion to marry Tysha. Well, I doubt that, but he certainly wouldn't have subjected them to what Tywin did.

[Aemond's Eye]

Lancel was possibly more messed up from Cersei's manipulation and the guilt over helping to kill King Robert after seeing the aftermath, rather than Kevan raising a horrible son.

If Tyrion is Kevan's son and wished to be a maester then Kevan likely asks Tywin to send him to The Citadel, and Tywin may try to pull some strings to see him advance there.

[devilish]

I believe that you're leaving a key component out of the picture ie Tywin's wife would still be alive. Joanna gave Tywin balance. She was the human factor that made Tywin whole. Once she died, the balance was gone and it became all a matter of 'legacy' and 'ambition'.

I believe that if Joanna was still alive than the twins wouldn't end up together or at least if they did, they would be caught by their mother and stopped before it becomes public. Jamie would be married by now (Margaery Tyrell?) and Tywin would have made sure to capitalize on such extraordinary force by having Jamie and Margaery sitting on the iron throne instead of Robert (I provide you with an enormous army to get your revenge and LYAAAAAAANNNAAA back and you would retire your claims sort of thing). Lets face it, Eddard wasn't really interested on whom should be sitting on the iron throne while Robert would rather spend the rest of his days bashing something (Targs, women, wine caskets) instead of ruling.

Cersei would probably be married off to Hoster son which would further consolidate the Vale-Riverlands-North-Westerlands-Reach alliance, making it very difficult for Robert to ignore the Lannister offer.

By the time of the first book Tywin would probably have 1-2 other children which would make Kevan's children (including Tyrion) less relevant. He would probably be married off to a minor lord's daughter or one of the 100000 daughters of Walder Frey while spending his life in the Tyrell-Lannister small council.

[Aemond's Eye]

I believe that you're leaving a key component out of the picture ie Tywin's wife would still be alive. Joanna gave Tywin balance. She was the human factor that made Tywin whole. Once she died, the balance was gone and it became all a matter of 'legacy' and 'ambition'.

I believe that if Joanna was still alive than the twins wouldn't end up together or at least if they did, they would be caught by their mother and stopped before it becomes public. Jamie would be married by now (Margaery Tyrell?) and Tywin would have made sure to capitalize on such extraordinary force by having Jamie and Margaery sitting on the iron throne instead of Robert (I provide you with an enormous army to get your revenge and LYAAAAAAANNNAAA back and you would retire your claims sort of thing). Lets face it, Eddard wasn't really interested on whom should be sitting on the iron throne while Robert would rather spend the rest of his days bashing something (Targs, women, wine caskets) instead of ruling.

Cersei would probably be married off to Hoster son which would further consolidate the Vale-Riverlands-North-Westerlands-Reach alliance, making it very difficult for Robert to ignore the Lannister offer.

By the time of the first book Tywin would probably have 1-2 other children which would make Kevan's children (including Tyrion) less relevant. He would probably be married off to a minor lord's daughter or one of the 100000 daughters of Walder Frey while spending his life in the Tyrell-Lannister small council.

Lysa Tully. Tywin had been in talks to betroth Jaime to Lysa.

Joanna knew about the twincest and did try to stop it. Had she lived I imagine she may have had Jaime fostered elsewhere, perhaps by Steffon Baratheon for a time. Cersei would never have started to scheme to have Jaime named to the Kingsguard, and even if she had I think Joanna was a player herself rather than a pawn - I think she finds a way to prevent it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lysa Tully. Tywin had been in talks to betroth Jaime to Lysa.

Joanna knew about the twincest and did try to stop it. Had she lived I imagine she may have had Jaime fostered elsewhere, perhaps by Steffon Baratheon for a time. Cersei would never have started to scheme to have Jaime named to the Kingsguard, and even if she had I think Joanna was a player herself rather than a pawn - I think she finds a way to prevent it.

Jaime was sent to squire for Lord Sumner Crakehall at the age of 11. Cersei barely saw each other growing up, as one was with her father in Kings Landing and the other at Crakehall.

[Fightbringer]

Think Kevan would probably be more fair to Tyrion than Tywin was, not only that but I think Tywin would be on far better terms with him than if he was his son. He would recognise the talents that Tyrion has, but not treat him badly because he is ashamed of him being his son. If he doesnt go to the citadel or take another path in life, I can still see him holding high office, and sitting on the small council, perhaps not as Hand of the King, but his long term prospects would be a lot better without a father who hates him in charge

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Think Kevan would probably be more fair to Tyrion than Tywin was, not only that but I think Tywin would be on far better terms with him than if he was his son. He would recognise the talents that Tyrion has, but not treat him badly because he is ashamed of him being his son. If he doesnt go to the citadel or take another path in life, I can still see him holding high office, and sitting on the small council, perhaps not as Hand of the King, but his long term prospects would be a lot better without a father who hates him in charge

His father made him Hand of the King, his father gave him a position on the Small Council. His father arranged a prospective marriage in which Tyrions children could have potentially ruled the North.

I get all the crap about Tywin not being a caring father, but he certainly looked out for his children's prospects.

Tyrions advancement in life was down to nepotism, not his incredible intellect or wit.

[Aemond's Eye]

Jaime was sent to squire for Lord Sumner Crakehall at the age of 11. Cersei barely saw each other growing up, as one was with her father in Kings Landing and the other at Crakehall.

Cersei was still involved in scheming to have Jaime named to the Kingsguard though, as she thought she'd be wed to Rhaegar.

And they had been found together by one of the Lannister servants, years before Jaime squired for Lord Crakehall. Joanna had Jaime's room moved to the other end of the castle from Cersei and had a guard posted outside Cersei's door.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Cersei was still involved in scheming to have Jaime named to the Kingsguard though, as she thought she'd be wed to Rhaegar.

Sure, bit how does fostering him with Steffon change that?

They didn't spend their childhoods together and they still ended up together. If anything the distance between them may have fuelled this obsession and made them think less of each other as siblings.

And they had been found together by one of the Lannister servants, years before Jaime squired for Lord Crakehall. Joanna had Jaime's room moved to the other end of the castle from Cersei and had a guard posted outside Cersei's door.

As young children. Joanna died when Jaime and Cersei were 7. I doubt what they were up to was anything sordid.

Nor could anyone predict that 2 siblings 7 or under playing around would result in an incestuous relationship for the rest of their lives.

[Aemond's Eye]

Sure, bit how does fostering him with Steffon change that?

They didn't spend their childhoods together and they still ended up together. If anything the distance between them may have fuelled this obsession and made them think less of each other as siblings.

Joanna being alive changes that - not fostering him with Tywin & Joanna's old friend. As I already posted, I don't read Joanna as being Tywin's tender wife - I think she's more likely to have been a player of the game. And even if Cersei had began to talk Jaime into taking the white cloak, Joanna may have been able to convince Aerys not to offer him it. It's a stretch but a possibility.

Moreover, had Jaime been fostered in the Stormlands, Riverlands or The Vale, his path to knighthood would not have been the same. Nor would he have visited King's Landing and been convinced by Cersei to accept a white cloak.

As young children. Joanna died when Jaime and Cersei were 7. I doubt what they were up to was anything sordid.

Nor could anyone predict that 2 siblings 7 or under playing around would result in an incestuous relationship for the rest of their lives.

It was sordid enough for Joanna to consider it necessary to send a servant/witness away, move Jaime's room and guard Cersei. Sure, some siblings might play 'doctor & nurse' as children, but it's likely that it was one incident that, when added in with others, worried Joanna.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Joanna being alive changes that - not fostering him with Tywin & Joanna's old friend. As I already posted, I don't read Joanna as being Tywin's tender wife - I think she's more likely to have been a player of the game. And even if Cersei had began to talk Jaime into taking the white cloak, Joanna may have been able to convince Aerys not to offer him it. It's a stretch but a possibility.

Jaime was already fostered, I'm not seeing much difference between him being fostered at Crakehall or Storms End. He'd actually be nearer to Cersei, who lived with her father at Kings Landing, has he been with Steffon.

Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful.

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood.

They did not spend their childhoods together, but apart from making them never see each other again no one could prevent what happened.

Moreover, had Jaime been fostered in the Stormlands, Riverlands or The Vale, his path to knighthood would not have been the same. Nor would he have visited King's Landing and been convinced by Cersei to accept a white cloak.

How would his path to knighthood be different? He was an extraordinary warrior at a young age and the son of a Great Lord. He would have been knighted from a young age.

It was sordid enough for Joanna to consider it necessary to send a servant/witness away, move Jaime's room and guard Cersei. Sure, some siblings might play 'doctor & nurse' as children, but it's likely that it was one incident that, when added in with others, worried Joanna.

Sure, but still 7 or under when it happened.

Maybe Joanna time as a child at Kings Landing and around the young Aerys and Rhaelle was looking out for certain signs but I'm not sure the average person would see 2 7 year old siblings playing with each other however provocatively and come to the conclusion they would b sleeping with each other as adults.

[Bretwalda]

Yes I would agree with this.

The main reason, that Tywin hates Tyrion isn't because Joanna died birthing him (these things happen in Westeros with the level of medical care) or because he hates all dwarves, its because HE fathered a DWARF!

Tywin is a very proud man with a massive chip on his shoulder. The fact that the most powerful lord in Westeros was responsible for a "deformed halfman" and that other lords and smallfolk would be laughing at him because of it will be very humiliating for him, and he hates people laughing at him most of all due to his history with his father Tytos.

If Tyrion was Kevan's son he would be amiciable with Tyrion and would find him a suitable position according to his intellect and abilities, since Tyrion would not offend his sense of "manhood" since it wasn't him who fathered him.

[Aemond's Eye]

Jaime was already fostered, I'm not seeing much difference between him being fostered at Crakehall or Storms End. He'd actually be nearer to Cersei, who lived with her father at Kings Landing, has he been with Steffon.

Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful.

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood.

They did not spend their childhoods together, but apart from making them never see each other again no one could prevent what happened.

Can you pleas point out where I've posted that they spent their childhoods together? As you've twice now replied with that point, when I've yet to imply that they grew up together.

How would his path to knighthood be different? He was an extraordinary warrior at a young age and the son of a Great Lord. He would have been knighted from a young age.

His path would be different as he'd squire elsewhere and be fostered elsewhere - his path, not the end result. And if he was in the Stormlands or elsewhere he'd never have been convinced by Cersei to take the white cloak.

Steffon Baratheon was given as an example and I've explained why, but he's hardly integral to my point. Cersei was jealous at the idea of Jaime marrying Lysa, so when he visited King's Landing she began to convince him to be in the Kingsguard so they could be closer. If he had been fostered in the Stormlands, Riverlands or Vale, it's unlikely he'd have been in King's Landing to be convinced into accepting a position on the Kingsguard. So his marriage to Lysa would go through.

That's my point.

Sure, but still 7 or under when it happened.

Maybe Joanna time as a child at Kings Landing and around the young Aerys and Rhaelle was looking out for certain signs but I'm not sure the average person would see 2 7 year old siblings playing with each other however provocatively and come to the conclusion they would b sleeping with each other as adults.

How do you know that one incident led Joanna to think that they'd be sleeping together as adults? Again, I think after hearing of it she was concerned due to how close they were already - and took steps against it. Thus I suspect she'd have suggested sending one of them away from the Westerlands at a younger age should she have lived. Meaning they spend even less time together as children. Couple that with other factors and I see Jaime marrying Lysa Tully as planned.

I'm not suggesting that they would never shag - just that if they did Jaime wouldn't be Kinsguard.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Can you pleas point out where I've posted that they spent their childhoods together? As you've twice now replied with that point, when I've yet to imply that they grew up together.

You originally said Jaime should be fostered. I'm pointing out that he was fostered from the age of 11 like is customary for many young nobles.

I've had to point it out twice because you seem to have trouble grasping it.

Your suggestion that fostering Jaime would have solved the problem is flawed because he was fostered.

His path would be different as he'd squire elsewhere and be fostered elsewhere - his path, not the end result.

I'm sorry but I dont understand this point at all. How would his path be in any different if he was squiring for Lord Baratheon instead of Lord Crakehall?

Was Steffon teaching squires to not have sexy feelings for their sisters? Was Crakehall encouraging it?

There would be little difference. He would still be a young noble and the heir to Casterly Rock

And if he was in the Stormlands or elsewhere he'd never have been convinced by Cersei to take the white cloak.

That plan was formulated in Kings Landing not Casterly Rock. Kings Landing is closer to Storms End than it is Crakehall (or Casterly Rock). Jaime would actually be nearer his sister.

Steffon Baratheon was given as an example and I've explained why, but he's hardly integral to my point. Cersei was jealous at the idea of Jaime marrying Lysa, so when he visited King's Landing she began to convince him to be in the Kingsguard so they could be closer. If he had been fostered in the Stormlands, Riverlands or Vale, it's unlikely he'd have been in King's Landing to be convinced into accepting a position on the Kingsguard. So his marriage to Lysa would go through.

That's my point.

He was there with other knights and squires fighting the Kingswood brotherhood. That was taking place in the Kingswood and the Kingswood is located in both the Crownlands and Stormlands.

It was a quirk of fate that the Kingswood brotherhood would rise up around the same time that Tywin had arranged for his son to marry Lysa. Fostering him somewhere else would not have prevented it.

How do you know that one incident led Joanna to think that they'd be sleeping together as adults? Again, I think after hearing of it she was concerned due to how close they were already - and took steps against it. Thus I suspect she'd have suggested sending one of them away from the Westerlands should she have lived.

One of them was sent away from the Westerlands. Cersei lived with her father in Kings Landing.

[Aemond's Eye]

You originally said Jaime should be fostered. I'm pointing out that he was fostered from the age of 11 like is customary for many young nobles.

I've had to point it out twice because you seem to have trouble grasping it.

Your suggestion that fostering Jaime would have solved the problem is flawed because he was fostered.

I'm sorry but I dont understand this point at all. How would his path be in any different if he was squiring for Lord Baratheon instead of Lord Crakehall?

Was Steffon teaching squires to not have sexy feelings for their sisters? Was Crakehall encouraging it?

There would be little difference. He would still be a young noble and the heir to Casterly Rock

That plan was formulated in Kings Landing not Casterly Rock. Kings Landing is closer to Storms End than it is Crakehall (or Casterly Rock). Jaime would actually be nearer his sister.

He was there with other knights and squires fighting the Kingswood brotherhood. That was taking place in the Kingswood and the Kingswood is located in both the Crownlands and Stormlands.

It was a quirk of fate that the Kingswood brotherhood would rise up around the same time that Tywin had arranged for his son to marry Lysa. Fostering him somewhere else would not have prevented it.

One of them was sent away from the Westerlands. Cersei lived with her father in Kings Landing.

You might want to try reading that post again - I specifically posted that Joanna could have had one sent away at a younger age. As in before Jaime went off to squire and Cersei went to live in King's Landing.

If one of us is having trouble grasping anything it's you. I am not in the slightest bit aware of why you seem to think I'm arguing that Joanna could have prevented them from ever shagging - as I've explained that was never my point. (And Steffon Baratheon isn't integral to it, as I've also pointed out. I have already clarified why I gave Steffon as an example, but - again - never stated that it was integral that Jaime was sent to Storm's End.)

No one single factor changes Jaime joining the Kingsguard. My suggestion is that, had she lived, Joanna would have had one fostered at an earlier date to stop them remaining so close, may have found some way of talking Aerys out of it even if Cersei's plan still went ahead - or failing that, Jaime may not have been near King's Landing at the time, and marries Lysa.

I'm not arguing that Jaime Lannister, heir to Casterly Rock, wouldn't still have shagged his sister if he was a small council member rather than Kingsguard.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You might want to try reading that post again - I specifically posted that Joanna could have had one sent away at a younger age. As in before Jaime went off to squire and Cersei went to live in King's Landing.

Jaime left Casterly Rock at the age of 11. Are you really suggesting that leaving at 10 would have cured his incestuous thoughts?

If one of us is having trouble grasping anything it's you. I am not in the slightest bit aware...

You made a point about Joanna fostering him had she stayed alive. I pointed out that he was already fostered so it would not have changed much, as it seemed that you didnt know that from your original comment. For all we know it was Joanna who arranged for him to leave for Crakehall when he turned.

It was you who decided to bring up Storms End like the problem was distance.

[Aemond's Eye]

Sorry for being short with you, thelittledragonthatcould. One of those days at work. I appreciate my initial point wasn't clear with what I meant.

Jaime left Casterly Rock at the age of 11. Are you really suggesting that leaving at 10 would have cured his incestuous thoughts?

You made a point about Joanna fostering him had she stayed alive. I pointed out that he was already fostered so it would not have changed much, as it seemed that you didnt know that from your original comment. For all we know it was Joanna who arranged for him to leave for Crakehall when he turned.

It was you who decided to bring up Storms End like the problem was distance.

No.

I've already clarified that my point is about Jaime and the kingsguard.