(BOOK & SHOW SPOILERS) Olly... if he even utters the words "for the Watch"

[SerDoublePost]

Ummm. Olly is now a member of the NW. It's no different than any of the Brothers, doing the deed. It will probably be no less sad and hard for Olly to betray Jon, either. He has built up a relationship with Jon and put his trust in him as well.

Seriously, people need to relax with this BS.

I agree, as long as members of the NW do the deed, then it will remain tragic. Ollie having this psedu father-son relationship with Jon adds to it.

I also agree with Adancewithcats idea of not having expectations, you are just setting up yourself for disapointment if you do. Let the books be the books and the the show the show.

[mdrake34]

I don't mind if Ollie takes part, I think it's a legit criticism he hasn't been a brother long enough to really understand "for the watch," but he's already taken his vows and been assigned a position as Jon's steward.

My problem is this: the show hasn't devoted any time whatsoever to Jon's friendly dealings with the wildlings, we haven't gotten them depleting the NW's resources as Winter approaches, and while they're clearly being held in Castle Black, there haven't been any on-screen interactions/skirmishes between NW brothers and Wildlings.

That's important because in the books, no matter how big of a Jon fan you are (I'm a big one) by the end of ADWD, GRRM clearly intends for the reader to be really frustrated with Jon's actions as LC. So "for the watch" not only makes sense, but you understand why they did it.

In the show, there's none of that. There's probably 99-100% agreement among the show-audience that Jon is doing the right thing trying to prevent the rest of the wildlings from becoming wights, and even if a ton of NW brothers die at Hardhome, they're still not going to understand why Jon would be stabbed.

[Stan Man]

I don't mind if Ollie takes part, I think it's a legit criticism he hasn't been a brother long enough to really understand "for the watch," but he's already taken his vows and been assigned a position as Jon's steward.

My problem is this: the show hasn't devoted any time whatsoever to Jon's friendly dealings with the wildlings, we haven't gotten them depleting the NW's resources as Winter approaches, and while they're clearly being held in Castle Black, there haven't been any on-screen interactions/skirmishes between NW brothers and Wildlings.

That's important because in the books, no matter how big of a Jon fan you are (I'm a big one) by the end of ADWD, GRRM clearly intends for the reader to be really frustrated with Jon's actions as LC. So "for the watch" not only makes sense, but you understand why they did it.

In the show, there's none of that. There's probably 99-100% agreement among the show-audience that Jon is doing the right thing trying to prevent the rest of the wildlings from becoming wights, and even if a ton of NW brothers die at Hardhome, they're still not going to understand why Jon would be stabbed.

I agree 100%.

Winter has been built up for nigh five seasons now, I'd like to see people scrambling for supplies. That's why Jon's chapters in the latter half of Dance were so compelling: you wanted the wildlings to survive, but you wanted the Night's Watch to have enough food. This issue could so easily be included with simple lines of dialogue:

Thorne: Have you thought about food, Lord Snow? We can barely feed the Night's Watch, nevermind a thousand traitorous wildlings.

Jon: *blank stare*

Thorne: Remember whose oaths you swore.

Jon: I fight for the living.

Thorne: We won't be living very long when we're fighting the wildlings for turnips, now will we?

*Thorne sassily turns around, while Jon stares after him*

BAM. That's what, a twenty, thirty-second scene?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I am wondering if the rumors of Sam's dad, Randyll Tarly joining the cast points at Sam, Gilly and Jon going South after Jon is stabbed?

What is the point of all of Stannis' forces and his family plus Millisandre leaving the Wall? Now Sam and Gilly have not left the Wall yet but will apparently do so next season?

So, what iF Jon is stabbed after he brings back the horde of Wildlings, Castle Black explodes in chaos and fighting between the Watch and the Wildlings and Sam escapes with severely injured Jon and Gilly in tow. Back to the only place he knows, his father's keep?

Now the only way this works so Sam does not get executed by his father is if by all accounts the Watch is done, and the Wall has fallen?

[mdrake34]

I agree 100%.

Winter has been built up for nigh five seasons now, I'd like to see people scrambling for supplies. That's why Jon's chapters in the latter half of Dance were so compelling: you wanted the wildlings to survive, but you wanted the Night's Watch to have enough food. This issue could so easily be included with simple lines of dialogue:

Thorne: Have you thought about food, Lord Snow? We can barely feed the Night's Watch, nevermind a thousand traitorous wildlings.

Jon: *blank stare*

Thorne: Remember whose oaths you swore.

Jon: I fight for the living.

Thorne: We won't be living very long when we're fighting the wildlings for turnips, now will we?

*Thorne sassily turns around, while Jon stares after him*

BAM. That's what, a twenty, thirty-second scene?

Yup, it's all they need. They already had Jon asking Stannis when he was leaving because they wouldn't have enough food to feed the NW and Stannis' army for winter, so it literally needs one more scene.

[Stan Man]

Yup, it's all they need. They already had Jon asking Stannis when he was leaving because they wouldn't have enough food to feed the NW and Stannis' army for winter, so it literally needs one more scene.

In my mind, it's bad and lazy writing. Once the show started to veer from its source material, things start getting inconsistent and rushed. If you have three minutes to force Night's Watchmen to assault Gilly, then you have thirty seconds to include a much more important plot point.

[Primalsplit]

Olly Chekov :lol:

[Big Daddy]

I agree that it doesn't matter who actually stabs Jon first, middle, last, etc. The point is that he is stabbed by watch members for his recent decisions.

Heck, he could be having Oly clean Longclaw when he is stabbed, crawls to Oly to get Longclaw to try to defend himself, and Oly runs him through with his own sword for the final stab. That would work.

[HodoringHodor]

It's heavy handed storytelling where they are giving away the end. The only thing they writers try to do now is to "shock" people and they can't even do that correctly. They are telegraphing everything.

It's only giving away the end for the ones who already know what's happening.

[ADanceWithCats]

In the show, there's none of that. There's probably 99-100% agreement among the show-audience that Jon is doing the right thing trying to prevent the rest of the wildlings from becoming wights, and even if a ton of NW brothers die at Hardhome, they're still not going to understand why Jon would be stabbed.

Except that the Unsullied reviewers seem to get it. "It's never easy to change tradition" (cf. also Dany), "there are always reactionaries", "differences established over millennia aren't that easy to set aside". It's more of an ideological thing, but they get it.

[Daske]

It's heavy handed storytelling where they are giving away the end. The only thing they writers try to do now is to "shock" people and they can't even do that correctly. They are telegraphing everything.

Most of the 'shock' moments GRRM wrote - so how is that even a negative. Being shocking the most famous thing about the books.

Of course this scene will be shocking in the show - it's only 'telegraphed' because you know what is going to happen. Anyone who doesn't have advance knowledge at this point will not know that Jon will be 'killed'. But they do know that there is malcontent and they have created a sense of general foreboding, and that is the same as the books anyway.

The Mountain <-> Molehill

[ambi76]

He is totally going to say it. And a single eagle raven tear will roll down his face. :devil:

[jandslegate]

I feel like they're building us up for Olly being Brutus but I actually kind of suspect it will be Thorne that instigates and/or initiates it. Although I think it'd give his character more depth if because of his honor as a brother he was adamantly against an attack on any Lord Commander. It would make it harder to hate someone we were clearly supposed to hate earlier in the story. However, I suspect that's asking too much for the show. It really does feel like they've gone overboard with the 'speeding things along'.