Bringing down the Freys

[sweetsunray]

Winter is here. Parts of the Neck are frozen (and so the Green Fork might be frozen as well), snow in King's Landing reaches up to your shins. The Frey host in the North has been wiped out by Stannis and Manderly. Queen Daenerys in King's Landing gives you an army of 10k (with Stark banners, not Dragon banners), possibly you might get help from the Vale (although the Hill Tribes are even more dangerous than ever before) and the Neck. You can count on the Lannisters defecting or leaving, because they're needed at home to deal with Ironborn. Only the Reach and Stormlands are the main food supply. You want to take back the Riverlands and take the Twins, coming from the South. You don't get to use dragons.

1) What would your army be like? Horse versus foot soldiers, and how many of the 10k will you actually use? (Your 10k may include 2000 Dothraki and the same number of Unsullied)

2) How would you solve the food issue (on the move and for sieges), because whatever food that's left in the Riverlands is locked in the castles.

3) Which houses in the Riverlands would you turn to restore the Tully's back to power?

4) Which houses would side with the Freys?

5) Final and most important question: How will you take the Twins with the intent to keep it intact?

(You're allowed to answer one of the 5 questions)

[Lykos]

I think the beginning of winter is a bad time for a siege, as the Twins will be well provisioned for about three years and 10k is half the number of what Robb had. The Freys provided 4k. What's the situation in the Riverlands? Who holds Riverrun, Harrenhal and so on. From your setting I gather that the Westerlands have declared for Dany, "my side" or neutrality? They are occupied with their own problems, you say. What about the Reach, Stormlands and Dorne? How much time and food do I have?

The Dothraki are completely - and the Unsullied pretty useless in a siege.

I'd stay south send the Dothraki and some cavalry foraging and let the Unsullied guard my food stores use the knights to oversee the construction of fortifications to keep my back clear when I start the siege secure a way to cross the Green Fork in spring.

Find a way to entertain the troops and keep them healthy till spring.

Start the siege when the spring thaw comes, before the spring floods.

[sweetsunray]

I think the beginning of winter is a bad time for a siege, as the Twins will be well provisioned for about three years and 10k is half the number of what Robb had. The Freys provided 4k. What's the situation in the Riverlands? Who holds Riverrun, Harrenhal and so on. From your setting I gather that the Westerlands have declared for Dany, "my side" or neutrality? They are occupied with their own problems, you say. What about the Reach, Stormlands and Dorne? How much time and food do I have?

The Dothraki are completely - and the Unsullied pretty useless in a siege.

I'd stay south send the Dothraki and some cavalry foraging and let the Unsullied guard my food stores use the knights to oversee the construction of fortifications to keep my back clear when I start the siege secure a way to cross the Green Fork in spring.

Find a way to entertain the troops and keep them healthy till spring.

Start the siege when the spring thaw comes, before the spring floods.

More Background:

You can assume that the Lord of Carsterly Rock sides with Dany.

Dorne and the Reach have had endured losses and destruction during the Dance of Dragons between Aegon and Dany, except for the Daynes (Starfall and High Hermitage), because the Lord of Starfall wasn't home back during the Dance of Dragons. But they've surrendered and willing to cooperate and just want to rebuild.

Dany has won against Stannis, and the Freys helped in that, which is why she's not sending you out with an army under the dragon banners and you don't get to use dragons. But the Riverlands is still a boil of rebellion and the Lannisters are tired of occupying the Riverlands for the Freys, while Ironborn reave the Westerlands. They want out, and would release Edmure. You've promised peace and return the North back to the 7 kingdoms.

LF is still lord of HH and at the Vale, making you all sorts of promises that the Vale will come. But most likely LF is setting up a trap and will have sent a Raven to Walder Frey regarding Dany's decision.

The North is fractioned and basically immobile (snowed in), and distrusting of each other. There's a Stark heir (Rickon) at White Harbor, but not at WF. WF is basically deserted.

You could say it's about 2 years after Stannis' battle at the ice lake near WF.

As to your choice:

Yes, the Dothraki and US seem completely useless. I wouldn't use them myself. And the Dorthraki I think aren't keen on snow at all.

I also agree that spring seems the wisest, except you know the Long Night is coming and that there must be a Stark at WF. So waiting for spring ain't an option. Because waiting for spring simply means, waiting for Godot who'll never show.

But you're free to deceive, plot, in any other way possible. And if the Neck is frozen, then so is the Green Fork and you may cross the river without needing the Twins.

Roose had 2000 Frey soldiers sent out to battle against Stannis. So if they're wiped out, wouldn't that mean the Freys only have 2000 soldiers left?

[The Witch King of Asshai]

The Dothraki have no place in my army, barbaric savages, so they won't be tagging along, and no eunuchs whose loyalties would not be to me. More importantly, who are my troops? What I do depends on their loyalties and origins. Are they loyal to me, or are they from a variety of kingdoms who are loyal to Danaerys over me? Because I see a great opportunity for treachery and to advance my own position. And is Shireen alive, or Edric Storm? I might decide a Baratheon would be a better ruler.

Anyway, I would in all circumstances appeal to the grievances of Houses Blackwood, Mallister, Piper, Vance and so on, promising them all the Frey/Lannister heads and lands they want. They'll be even more willing to follow me if I have Edmure. The only houses that oppose us would be the Freys and their minor vassals, but I suspect they'll avoid a pitched battle. I'll split my host evenly, cross the Green Fork, and besiege both Twins, making a few siege engines, but focusing on a complete encirclement. Then, I will open negotiations with a Frey (or rivers) of my choice, one lacking in honour and far down the line of succession, but ambitious and resentful of his older family. They will ensure that the gates to at least one of the Twins will be open, in return for the title Lord Frey and greatly reduced holdings. Once the Twins are mine, every Frey inside is put to the sword, other than the new Lord Frey. He will be affirmed in his position, before being executed for treason, murder and assisted King-Slaying. This leaves all the lands free to reward the riverlords, and gives me immense satisfaction. The Twins themselves should be kept intact, and given to House Tully directly.

Ideally it will be a quick, decisive campaign, and food will pas through the reach to the Piper, Vance and Smallwood lands in the south of the Riverlands, Houses I will prioritise in negotiations. This should solve the food issue, and prevent a greater strain on the riverlands resources. There will be no major battles, as at best the Freys+Allies cannot have more than 2,500 men.

[sweetsunray]

The Dothraki have no place in my army, barbaric savages, so they won't be tagging along, and no eunuchs whose loyalties would not be to me. More importantly, who are my troops? What I do depends on their loyalties and origins. Are they loyal to me, or are they from a variety of kingdoms who are loyal to Danaerys over me? Because I see a great opportunity for treachery and to advance my own position. And is Shireen alive, or Edric Storm? I might decide a Baratheon would be a better ruler.

Anyway, I would in all circumstances appeal to the grievances of Houses Blackwood, Mallister, Piper, Vance and so on, promising them all the Frey/Lannister heads and lands they want. They'll be even more willing to follow me if I have Edmure. The only houses that oppose us would be the Freys and their minor vassals, but I suspect they'll avoid a pitched battle. I'll split my host evenly, cross the Green Fork, and besiege both Twins, making a few siege engines, but focusing on a complete encirclement. Then, I will open negotiations with a Frey (or rivers) of my choice, one lacking in honour and far down the line of succession, but ambitious and resentful of his older family. They will ensure that the gates to at least one of the Twins will be open, in return for the title Lord Frey and greatly reduced holdings. Once the Twins are mine, every Frey inside is put to the sword, other than the new Lord Frey. He will be affirmed in his position, before being executed for treason, murder and assisted King-Slaying. This leaves all the lands free to reward the riverlords, and gives me immense satisfaction. The Twins themselves should be kept intact, and given to House Tully directly.

Ideally it will be a quick, decisive campaign, and food will pas through the reach to the Piper, Vance and Smallwood lands in the south of the Riverlands, Houses I will prioritise in negotiations. This should solve the food issue, and prevent a greater strain on the riverlands resources. There will be no major battles, as at best the Freys+Allies cannot have more than 2,500 men.

Political intrigue background in KL:

Edric Storm is Lord Baratheon, hostage at KL. And he muttered at the council that the Riverlands and North mean naught to him. You won't be able to win him to your side for other reasons because there's a possible rival to his claim in your camp (who doesn't want to be either Lord, let alone King).

Aegon is a hostage as well. Dany wants to marry him and will send his wife Arianne back to Dorne after her child is born (which she will keep hostage as well) in order to settle the whole Blackfyre-Targ dispute. But Arianne has tipped you off that Aegon may be planning on getting his hands on a dragon. LF seems to be helping in this. But Varys/Tyrion may still be supportive of Aegon taking control if they knew. Aegon himself is resentful of being Lord of Nothing. Arianne couldn't care less anymore about Aegon or Dany... as long as she can get back to Dorne and rebuild Sunspear and the Water Gardens.

You also have Robb's will in hand (still kept a secret, especially from LF and Sansa, and you have thus a possible motive to double back on your promise to bring the North back to the 7 kingdoms), and wrote a letter to Sansa with innocent seeming hints so that if LF tells her lies, he'll expose himself. You've learned all about LF's lies about the Valeryan dagger, arresting Eddard Stark, all the suspicious deaths in the Vale and him having sent a fake Arya to marry the Bolton bastard from Tyrion and Varys; and hope Sansa might take him out. Sansa's a widow with a baby son by HTH (who died in an accident), but made Wardeness by Dany.

Margaery has become a Silent Sister. :laugh: Willas is still unmarried and still thinks it's a pity he never got to marry Sansa.

As for the troops:

Richard Lonmouth (aka Lem) is a commander. He fled from the Riverlands after shit went down there (after Jaime's capture) and aided Dany in regret for siding with Robert to soon and having seen Rhaegar fall at the Trident Battle. He wants nothing more than give the Freys a final beat up. The big host of those troops will be loyal to Dany and sellswords.

You have about 50 people directly sworn to you, amongst them Jaime Lannister, but he's waiting for his trial by combat. You had to give him up the moment you went to KL in order to get on the good side with Dany. BTW Jaime's not mad over that, because it was his wish and idea in the first place. He refuses anybody else to be his champion, but Brienne is eager to declare herself champion anyway. She'll either fight Daario Naaharis who's itching for a fight, or Jorah Mormont. It would be good for Jaime to live, because he's one of the more seasoned warriors in battle.

The others sworn to you are House Dayne (including the Sword of the Morning), men of the Mountain Clans (veterans), heirs and houses sworn to the Glovers (some experienced, others young and inexperienced), and one crannogman with the greensight. But you don't have their hosts at hand: they're stuck in the North or guarding the passes and Torrentine because the Oakhearts regularly make trouble with some of the Dothraki who sell themselves to anyone for an excuse to go pillaging. Most of the Dothraki were given the Marches and the keeps to function as a barrier between Dorne and the Reach from going into outright civil war, and led by Dany's bloodriders and thus with leaders who are more aligned to Dany's way of thinking.

You have free disposal of KL's rookery and ravens anywhere you please, especially since the grand maester in place is one who's certainly on your side. He's not loyal to your name, but loyal to the same god, and not likely keen on dragons at all.

As for the houses, yes, I agree... The Blackwoods were the last to hold out, they'd be the first to jump on the chance to side against the Freys and join Tully-Stark side. That means the Brackens would side with the Freys though. They're age old enemies with the Blackwoods. Mallister makes absolute sense, Piper too, as well as Vance. Aside from the Brackens, most would jump at the chance of getting revenge on the Freys. And LF will have to play along. He'll just play double sides.

Black Walder and Edwyne Frey are dead (Nymeria), so Walton Frey is heir now. So, Emmon Frey is an option: he's tied to the Lannisters anyway and would lose Riverrun with Edmure returning, and not keen on being bribed by LF. The Twins in exchange for RR would greatly appeal to him.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

1. 2000 Unsullied, 1000 Dothraki with bows, 1000 westerosi light cavalry, 500 mounted knights, 500 Reach longbowmen, 2000 assorted levy infantry from wherever. That's really all I need.

2. Bring food from the Reach up the Kingsroad. Convoy security by detachments of Westerosi light cavalry and Dothraki.

3. Everybody who wants to.

4. Whichever ones want to.

5. Move up the Kingsroad and cross the Trident at the Ruby Ford. Move up the green fork and send my light cavalry to gather enough wood to build rafts and field artillery. Trebuchets and catapults. Have the Dothraki swim the river with their horses and form a beachhead. Draw a rope across, the river and use the rafts as ferries and bring across half the Unsullied and levies. Use cavalry to cut the lines of supply and invest the twins out of range of ballistae. Then wait for Walder Frey to offer terms.

Walder is a chickenshit. I offer him pardon, and pardon for his sons, if he bends the knee and give hostages. He'll agree. He has no reason to fight. He can bend the knee or wait as I bury him in what's left of his castles.

After his surrender, I order the Frey forces, with his sons that are of age, north to fight Others, or dig trench latrines. The Freys have just become my #1 shit detail force. The spirit of Uriah the Hittite will sigh with relief that he didn't have to suffer what the Freys are suffering. Walder can keep 500 of his troops at the Twins, with 500 of mine.

I want it made discreetly clear to all the other lords, large and small, that the Queen would look askance at any marriages made with Freys. I want the larger merchants to know as well. The Feys are basically now verboten. An untouchable class.

Walder can sit in his hall and wait to die knowing that his name is now shit in the 7 Kingdoms. I want my Dothraki to build a stable for every Dothraki horse in the Seven Kingdoms, just upwind from the Twins.

[sweetsunray]

1. 2000 Unsullied, 1000 Dothraki with bows, 1000 westerosi light cavalry, 500 mounted knights, 500 Reach longbowmen, 2000 assorted levy infantry from wherever. That's really all I need.

2. Bring food from the Reach up the Kingsroad. Convoy security by detachments of Westerosi light cavalry and Dothraki.

3. Everybody who wants to.

4. Whichever ones want to.

5. Move up the Kingsroad and cross the Trident at the Ruby Ford. Move up the green fork and send my light cavalry to gather enough wood to build rafts and field artillery. Trebuchets and catapults. Have the Dothraki swim the river with their horses and form a beachhead. Draw a rope across, the river and use the rafts as ferries and bring across half the Unsullied and levies. Use cavalry to cut the lines of supply and invest the twins out of range of ballistae. Then wait for Walder Frey to offer terms.

Walder is a chickenshit. I offer him pardon, and pardon for his sons, if he bends the knee and give hostages. He'll agree. He has no reason to fight. He can bend the knee or wait as I bury him in what's left of his castles.

After his surrender, I order the Frey forces, with his sons that are of age, north to fight Others, or dig trench latrines. The Freys have just become my #1 shit detail force. The spirit of Uriah the Hittite will sigh with relief that he didn't have to suffer what the Freys are suffering. Walder can keep 500 of his troops at the Twins, with 500 of mine.

I want it made discreetly clear to all the other lords, large and small, that the Queen would look askance at any marriages made with Freys. I want the larger merchants to know as well. The Feys are basically now verboten. An untouchable class.

Walder can sit in his hall and wait to die knowing that his name is now shit in the 7 Kingdoms. I want my Dothraki to build a stable for every Dothraki horse in the Seven Kingdoms, just upwind from the Twins.

On the one hand it seems a waste to kill the troops as The Witch King of Ashai would do, and using them for shit jobs more useful. But we wouldn't want Frey Wights either, would we? That's like a double whammy or something? :cool4: But yeah, it's nice to think of Lord Walder Frey still living and see all his "work" go for naught.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

But we wouldn't want Frey Wights either, would we? That's like a double whammy or something? .

More like a bonus. I get to see them killed twice. I can even bring a few of them in chains to Walder so he can watch as I burn them. He can keep the ashes.

[sweetsunray]

More like a bonus. I get to see them killed twice. I can even bring a few of them in chains to Walder so he can watch as I burn them. He can keep the ashes.

Good point.

[sweetsunray]

Of course: you could just kill them, and leave them out for the ice zombie army to turn the bodies into wights and then kill them again. So the extra bonus could always be there.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Of course: you could just kill them, and leave them out for the ice zombie army to turn the bodies into wights and then kill them again.

Nah. That would be breaking my word to Old Walder. I'm a man of my word.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Frankly, I wouldn't be inclined to directly attack the twins in any event, as winter ultimately will freeze the river solid and eliminate the strategic importance of the twins.

But if I must, I don't want any dothraki or unsullied. Both are totally unaccustomed to fighting in the cold and fighting heavily armored opponents. Horses are also probably not terribly useful. The Freys aren't going to meet us in the field, and there aren't open places to fight on the bridge where a horse would be that valuable.

Trebuchets and a couple of cows with greyscale or some other disease would be my top choice, if I could find the cows. Barring that, I'd ask myself where the Twins get fresh water in winter.

[sweetsunray]

Frankly, I wouldn't be inclined to directly attack the twins in any event, as winter ultimately will freeze the river solid and eliminate the strategic importance of the twins.

But if I must, I don't want any dothraki or unsullied. Both are totally unaccustomed to fighting in the cold and fighting heavily armored opponents. Horses are also probably not terribly useful. The Freys aren't going to meet us in the field, and there aren't open places to fight on the bridge where a horse would be that valuable.

Trebuchets and a couple of cows with greyscale or some other disease would be my top choice, if I could find the cows. Barring that, I'd ask myself where the Twins get fresh water in winter.

Agreed, if the aim is to get troops North, BUT not if you wish to overturn the powers in the Riverlands and not risk having Freys in your back and LF doing a double on you with the knights of the Vale and his HH troops.

Been asking myself that too.

[John Suburbs]

The Freys will likely destroy themselves. Lord Walder will die any day now and with both Stevron and Rhyman dead Black Walder will set to murdering anyone who stands between him and the crown, namely Edwyn. This will set off a civil war among the family as second sons and third sons of fourth sons and fifth sons try to grab the prize.

Without unity, the Freys will not be able to marshal an army large enough to defend the Twins, let alone Riverrun, and they won't be able to align themselves with either Stannis nor whomever is coming up from the south.

The only way to avoid this is for Edwyn to kill BW first.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't believe in something like that, justice not blind vengeance. Kill those who took a serious part and not just drink and so on, at the RW andthen leave the rest alone and then make Walda the Lady of the Twins under the protection and tutelage of someone I trust so no one would kill her to take the lordship and in time marry her to someone I trust.

[sweetsunray]

I don't believe in something like that, justice not blind vengeance. Kill those who took a serious part and not just drink and so on, at the RW andthen leave the rest alone and then make Walda the Lady of the Twins under the protection and tutelage of someone I trust so no one would kill her to take the lordship and in time marry her to someone I trust.

That's possible if you have the hostages from Casterly Rock who were taken hostage during the RW

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That's possible if you have the hostages from Casterly Rock who were taken hostage during the RW

I don't understand what you mean. However I hadn't see that you used the" Queen Dany" joke so I am not sure that I have to give a serious answer or if I should say "Unicorns and ice creams for everyone!".

[sweetsunray]

Nah, I'm asking for a serious answer: mostly a political and military one, in the harshest weather circumstances, but one of the first times politics in KL may be more on your side, instead of against. The easiest way is just any monarch deciding with decree, but that's too easy. The monarch won't give you more political power without earning it, and certainly won't start a trial for you without having the Twins. So, you get an army at your disposal, but the rest is up to you... you can fuck it up, or you can win that power-play. It's not necessarily a 'revenge' game.

The most simple question would just have been: how will you win the Twins military wise without any further circumstances. But it helps to set up a background and to insert circumstances and likely scenario's of the political powers operating in KL, like harsh winter and Green Fork frozen, which gives you both an advantage on getting to both sides of the river, but is problematic for food. You can't really go forraging in the Riverlands: whatever's left of the food is in the castles there. Even the wolves have started to trek south now for lack of food.

As for what I meant - how are you going to find out who participated in the red wedding? You can only do it with witnesses. You can't rely on Frey testimony, since they'll all say, "Wasn't me, I was only drinking." So you need reliable witnesses who can pinpoint "that one" and "that one". Several people were taken hostage during the RW and Jaime had the Freys hand them over to him by King Tommen's decree and they're at Casterly Rock. So, if you can have those hostages released from Casterly Rock you can get your justice.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Nah, I'm asking for a serious answer: mostly a political and military one, in the harshest weather circumstances, but one of the first times politics in KL may be more on your side, instead of against. The easiest way is just any monarch deciding with decree, but that's too easy. The monarch won't giev you more political power without earning it. So, you get an army at your disposal, but the rest is up to you... you can fuck it up, or you can win that power-play. It's not necessarily a 'revenge' game.

Sorry but Queen Danny and serious don't go well. In any case if Queen Dany was willing to kill all of them because of what some of them did then someone should remind her what would happen to her family. In any case I cannot take seriously nothing that involes Queen Dany and Westeros.

[sweetsunray]

Sorry but Queen Danny and serious don't go well. In any case if Queen Dany was willing to kill all of them because of what some of them did then someone should remind her what would happen to her family. In any case I cannot take seriously nothing that involes Queen Dany and Westeros.

That's your choice. I didn't say that Queen Dany will remain Queen Dany. The Wall still stands (barely) and the army of wights and Others must still come down. And I explained she's not willing to kill all of them. If she did, she'd hand you a dragon, but you don't get one. The Freys in the Twins helped her defeat Stannis, so she can't give them to you on a platter for either revenge or justice in the background scenario. You'll have to get your hands dirty yourself. She's only willing to help you to troops in return for peace.

BTW I'm not particularly a fan of Dany - in the background scenario asked by others, I mentioned destruction of Dorne and Reach and her holding hostages. She probably burned Sunspear down with Drogon and had Dothraki pillage Dorne and the Reach.

The reason why I set up that background is to avoid answers like - I'll send a dragon, or wait for spring, or the Freys have already self destructed (Black Walder and Edwyne Frey were killed by Nymeria and Old Walder Frey still lives).