The Whitetree Theory

[grufolo]

Hello

this is not much of a theory, but i have found several hints pointing out to a role of wildlings custom and those of the Night's watch that were long forgotten and probably date to the long winter when the Others came in numbers only to be defeated by AA.

I think that an interesting coincidence is how Craster is both a son of a NW man and a woman (witch?) from Whitetree. This is interesting mostly in the light of the reveal that Craster's male children are turned into Others (WW). Is this the reason why the NW vows not to father any chidren? Because their male line can be turned into WW? Why aren't the WW stealing male offspring from the WL instead?

Also, Whitetree is known not only to burn their dead, but to be one of the oldest villages out there (it has the largest heart tree which covers the whole village area with its canopy. A very old wildling habit is rumored to be the offering of children to the Others, mainly during the long winter. In Whitetree, perhaps as an ancient WL custom, human sacrifices are rumored to happen (and the burned bones in the tree's mouth seem to point out the same direction). Maybe these sacrifices are in fact also the offering of children to the WW.

It has been postulated that Craster's mother, a Whitetree witch making her own sacrifices to the WW would have saved Craster from being taken (this post by Modesty Lannister). On the same forum page I discussed the bases of my ideas in this thread, where i suggest that Maester Aemon could have been Craster's father (blood of the dragon?), but that's only speculations.

A theory of Craster's identity as Gerold Hightower can be found here. I don't find it believable though.

I would like to gather here all the evidence and theories that can pertain to these facts.

[Coxy]

Hello

this is not much of a theory, but i have found several hints pointing out to a role of wildlings custom and those of the Night's watch that were long forgotten and probably date to the long winter when the Others came in numbers only to be defeated by AA.

I think that an interesting coincidence is how Craster is both a son of a NW man and a woman (witch?) from Whitetree. This is interesting mostly in the light of the reveal that Craster's male children are turned into Others (WW). Is this the reason why the NW vows not to father any chidren? Because their male line can be turned into WW? Why aren't the WW stealing male offspring from the WL instead?

Also, Whitetree is known not only to burn their dead, but to be one of the oldest villages out there (it has the largest heart tree which covers the whole village area with its canopy. A very old wildling habit is rumored to be the offering of children to the Others, mainly during the long winter. In Whitetree, perhaps as an ancient WL custom, human sacrifices are rumored to happen (and the burned bones in the tree's mouth seem to point out the same direction). Maybe these sacrifices are in fact also the offering of children to the WW.

It has been postulated that Craster's mother, a Whitetree witch making her own sacrifices to the WW would have saved Craster from being taken (this post by Modesty Lannister). On the same forum page I discussed the bases of my ideas in this thread, where i suggest that Maester Aemon could have been Craster's father (blood of the dragon?), but that's only speculations.

A theory of Craster's identity as Gerold Hightower can be found here. I don't find it believable though.

I would like to gather here all the evidence and theories that can pertain to these facts.

It's a very interesting idea, when people on these forums frequently discuss the breaking of some kind of pact with the Others; that maybe the nature of the pact was the NW gave them their sons. Now they vow not to father any.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

I think it's not really that, but just part of the vow. If you are invested in a family down south, you are more likely to go there again. Same goes for people on the Wall already who father a child on, say, one of the whores of Moletown. But, maybe that's just the obvious "solution" to it, and the reason it was really instituted was indeed because of the ability for black to go white.

Coxy is right, maybe it is the reason why the White Walkers are coming south again. Maybe they are pissed off that Craster alone can't father enough of their new offspring. But here is a very important question I'd like to ask:

Is there a date set on the implementation of the Watchman's Oath? In other words: were we ever told when the Oath has come into being? And by whom it was written? I think if we got a timeframe on that, we'd be halfway to the solution already.

[grufolo]

As far as i remember the vow is as old as the Night's watch and i think that since as Coxy said it also makes sense in political and management terms, it lost the meaning it originally had.

I also found where i also stated :

"So my theory is now that Whitetree was a crucial recruitment point for the WW, and this is how the habit was transferred to Craster.

Also, after Gilly gave birth to the 100th son of Craster, one of the other older wives says that if Sam won't take the baby "his brothers" (as the baby's brothers, not Sam's) will...."

I forgot to add that the meaning of Craster's 100th son (who now is at the Wall exchanged with Mance's son).

I think one curious coincidence is that while Mance's son is believed by Melisandre to have the blood of kings because of Mance, the son of Craster may turn out to have also a very interesting bloodline (if my guess is right that Aemon or Bloodraven may have been involved in his birth, or else for other seasons).

EDIT: I also previously noticed how marrying his own vives, Craster would keep his bloodline a lot more pure ... if that adds something to the table.

EDIT (2): If you want to understand more about the whole Craster issue you should really listen to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1X1FQZDC5Y

[grufolo]

It would be interesting to understand if the number 100 has any simbology in ASOIAF, since the 100 sons of Craster, that would help ... any experts?

Extra cool info from the video:

Craster means crow in old english (really???)

[Coxy]

It would be interesting to understand if the number 100 has any simbology in ASOIAF, since the 100 sons of Craster, that would help ... any experts?

Extra cool info from the video:

Craster means crow in old english (really???)

Found this: In spite of its slightly occupational appearance, this surname is locational. It derives from the old fishing village of 'Craister' in Northumberland, and is recorded in a number of spellings of which the two most popular are Craister and the dialectal Craster. The first recording of the village appears in the rolls known as the 'Feet of Fines' in 1242, and the name itself is clearly Roman. It originates from the Latin 'cestre' meaning a fort or camp, plus the Olde English 'cra' meaning 'crow'. This suggests that the original site was a look-out post, a 'crows nest', which given its proximity to Hadrians Wall is a logical analysis. The surname is much later than the village, and seems to have been first recorded in Berwick on Tweed (see below). The rapid appearance of the surname through Northumberland, and shortly afterwards, London, suggests that the village may have been 'cleared' of the majority of its tenants, as a result of some local disaster or change of farming or even fishing conditions. The early recordings include Catherine Craster, daughter of Edward Craster, christened at Morpeth, on April 22nd 1627, and Mary Craister, who married William Turner, so spelt, at Woodhorn, Northumberland, on June 30th 1633. Other recordings from further afield include Edward Craister, who married Anne Heath at St James Church, Dukes Place, London, on February 2nd 1685, and William Croster, an unusual variant spelling, who married Sarah Howe at St Botolphs church, Bishopgate, London, on July 26th 1689. The coat of arms granted in Northumberland is quartered, gold and red. In the first quarter is a crow proper, whilst the crest is a raven, also proper. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of John Craister, which was dated June 23rd 1580, who married at Berwick on Tweed, during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1, known as 'Good Queen Bess', 1558 - 1603. Surnames became necessary when governments introduced personal taxation. In England this was known as Poll Tax. Throughout the centuries, surnames in every country have continued to "develop" often leading to astonishing variants of the original spelling.

[Coxy]

Re the above; it amazes me the level of thought and detail GRRM has woven into these books. You can misinterpret the signs, but cannot doubt he's placed them there to find.

[grufolo]

Wow that's a lot of info and also quite shocking ones: I wonder if GRRM knows all of this or it is just coincidence:

1) Cra ethymus=crow

2) Cra(i)ster is an outpost near Hadrian's WALL

3) A village cleared of of its tenants, as a result of some local disaster (like Whitetree!! To which Craster is deeply linked to)

:o

[Coxy]

Wow that's a lot of info and also quite shocking ones: I wonder if GRRM knows all of this or it is just coincidence.

:o

I doubt it's coincidence. It's too bang on the money for that.

[Daendrew]

Caster of Casterly Rock may have been banished to The Wall. Becoming Craster once he deserted.

Gilly's baby is heir to Crasterly Rock

[Alester Florent]

I suspect what happened is that GRRM, who's in need of a lot of names, has a book (or perhaps now a website) with a list of surnames and associated meanings, and delves into that when he needs a name for a character he doesn't have a fixed idea for. For Craster, he'll have searched for stuff related to "crow" and then picked one that sounded about right.

It's pretty much what I do when I need a name for a secondary character. Not everything necessarily has to have several layers of hidden meanings.

[Coxy]

I suspect what happened is that GRRM, who's in need of a lot of names, has a book (or perhaps now a website) with a list of surnames and associated meanings, and delves into that when he needs a name for a character he doesn't have a fixed idea for. For Craster, he'll have searched for stuff related to "crow" and then picked one that sounded about right.

It's pretty much what I do when I need a name for a secondary character. Not everything necessarily has to have several layers of hidden meanings.

I know what you mean, but his research could easily have inspired him to draw more into what he found.

[oursisthefury69]

Theres defintely something to Craster's father being NW, its very subtle and hardly ever spoken towards. However, i cant see many answers coming from Crasters situation. Even if it is true that his sons can be used because of NW lineage, a much bigger/broader/more important question rises of why the second you take NW vows your sons are susceptible to becoming Others? If this is the purpose of sacrifices why were their sacrifices made presumably before the rise of the NW? Why does the NW, whose purpose is to repell the Others, even exist if there existence creates the potential for Others to be born?

Don't get me wrong, I defintely think there's the potential for the NW and the Other's to be very much connected to one another, there's just no way were getting many more answers from this

[aryagonnakill#2]

There is no evidence that the children are turned into WW's, it makes more sense that they are sacrifices to be able to raise the dead, as we have been told dozens of times throughout the series that only death can pay for life. In fact, we saw a very close parallel when Danaerys sacrificed her child to save Drogo and Drogo returned to life, but was mindless.

[Jak Scaletongue]

I suspect what happened is that GRRM, who's in need of a lot of names, has a book (or perhaps now a website) with a list of surnames and associated meanings, and delves into that when he needs a name for a character he doesn't have a fixed idea for. For Craster, he'll have searched for stuff related to "crow" and then picked one that sounded about right.

It's pretty much what I do when I need a name for a secondary character. Not everything necessarily has to have several layers of hidden meanings.

one of my favourites is http://www.behindthename.com and http://surnames.behindthename.com

[oursisthefury69]

There is no evidence that the children are turned into WW's, it makes more sense that they are sacrifices to be able to raise the dead, as we have been told dozens of times throughout the series that only death can pay for life. In fact, we saw a very close parallel when Danaerys sacrificed her child to save Drogo and Drogo returned to life, but was mindless.

I've actually tried establishing this before, where its more likely the children are used as a sacrifice to awaken different form of life similar to Dany's dragons. The "evidence" people will reference is one of Craster's wives saying the sons are coming, and obviously they could just misunderstand that the children are literally physically transformed.

However,.... This concept right or wrong in no way affects any of this discussion

[Crippledtank]

Theres defintely something to Craster's father being NW, its very subtle and hardly ever spoken towards. However, i cant see many answers coming from Crasters situation. Even if it is true that his sons can be used because of NW lineage, a much bigger/broader/more important question rises of why the second you take NW vows your sons are susceptible to becoming Others? If this is the purpose of sacrifices why were their sacrifices made presumably before the rise of the NW? Why does the NW, whose purpose is to repell the Others, even exist if there existence creates the potential for Others to be born?

Don't get me wrong, I defintely think there's the potential for the NW and the Other's to be very much connected to one another, there's just no way were getting many more answers from this

Well the wall does have magical properties?

And the wall is possibly built by others (others use ice magic)

So what the difference between a man of the NW and any other man of the 7K besides the vow and the massive magical ice wall they live on?

EDIT

As for why still have the nw, it's simple. They now focus on the wildlings. At one time in history the NW stop seeing WW and only wildlings and eventually no longer saw the WW as a threat to the point that they no longer assisted.

Maybe the vows were always in place and simply saying I'll father no children meant the children were sacrifices straight away?

I think I'm asking more than I'm answering but i think a lot of this can be answered about when the NW stopped worrying about the WW and more on wl (my guess is roughly around the time of our great 13th lord commander ;) is when the WW focus started dying)

I'm not 100% convinced on the theory but I like it

[Coxy]

Theres defintely something to Craster's father being NW, its very subtle and hardly ever spoken towards. However, i cant see many answers coming from Crasters situation. Even if it is true that his sons can be used because of NW lineage, a much bigger/broader/more important question rises of why the second you take NW vows your sons are susceptible to becoming Others? If this is the purpose of sacrifices why were their sacrifices made presumably before the rise of the NW? Why does the NW, whose purpose is to repell the Others, even exist if there existence creates the potential for Others to be born?

Don't get me wrong, I defintely think there's the potential for the NW and the Other's to be very much connected to one another, there's just no way were getting many more answers from this

You raise a very good point. It's got me thinking at I'm at a loss at the moment. I considered if it could be sons descended of the First Men rather than just the NW, but I'm not convinced that works either. The easy solution would be to make sure the NW was made up entirely of those Andel descent. Not all NW brothers swear their oath to the old gods so it's not that either. Will keep thinking.

[grufolo]

There is no evidence that the children are turned into WW's, it makes more sense that they are sacrifices to be able to raise the dead, as we have been told dozens of times throughout the series that only death can pay for life. In fact, we saw a very close parallel when Danaerys sacrificed her child to save Drogo and Drogo returned to life, but was mindless.

No, in the series it's made pretty clear that Craster sons are turned into WW. and this is definitely a central mechanism so it's going to be the same in the books too.

I recommend watchingthe video i linked above because there's more to hear about this issue, including Craster's words when he defines himself "a godly man". He thinks that because he sacrifices to the WW, and he does that, in my opinion because he took some customs from his mother, the witch of Whitetree where the old customs (the old religion of the first men maybe?) involved sacrifices to the WW. We never knew what kind of sacrifices were made at Whitetree.

[grufolo]

A lot of clues point out towards the fact that hat we know if the WW is not what they originally were known for.

I think the wall itself may have been a creation of the WW ... definitely there was a religion of sort which existed at the time of the CoTF and the first men, which has now been forgotten and forsaken. Very little remains of it now. We have several clues and i believe this will be fleshed out a lot in the coming books.

But the whole thing is quite cloudy now, to say the best