The Maesters have a Dragon(s)!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

 

Also, when someone who has been a member as long as The Mother of the Other's makes such a snide remark to a new member's post's it's pretty unsettling. If the older members or moderator's don't want new members then just don't accept requests. 

 

I hate to sound like I'm whining, but over the last few weeks it's becoming increasingly clear that newer members are ridiculed and insulted when they attempt to contribute. And it's the long standing members who are the worst.

 

How about being accepting of new people who share a passion and want to join in the discussion?  The constant snide attitudes and outright insulting behavior, as well as the "there's a hundred threads on that already", are just childish.

 

I read the rules of the forum's and I didn't see anything saying that you are required to comment on every thread. If you don't have anything to add then why make a comment like that.

 

I'm railing at the wind, because duh it's the internet! That's what the internet is, a bunch of assholes being jerks because they can.

Sorry but I was raised better.

This is the first forum I've ever joined (and I'm almost 40 with a degree with in Computer Science, I was there when this shit started) and this kind of behavior is exactly why I've always stayed away.

Rant over. Go ahead and mock away...

The Mother of the Others does that to everybody.  In fact, her sarcastic humor is legendary on these boards, and never ill-intentioned.  

 

By the way, post count doesn't necessarily equal length of membership.  There are probably original members to this site that have fewer posts than I do.  Some of us just can't shut up. ;)  Trust me, some of those who are the worst at the sort of behavior you describe treat other long-standing members the same way.  It's not specifically targeting newbies.  I have seen a few new members get taken to task, but certainly not all of them, and certainly not by all of the members who have been here a long time.  It's certainly not constant.

 

The point about there being threads on a topic already goes back to the board policy of shutting down duplicate threads.  The search function is working as far as I know, and if there are already a dozen threads on a given topic, there's no need for yet another one.  We have hundreds (perhaps thousands) of threads filled with sometimes wonderful discussions, and the older threads on the topic A get buried further when someone starts a new thread on topic A.  

 

Excellent point, and one I've seen echoed quite a bit by others who get fed up with unnecessary rudeness by a minority of posters.

 

I'm sorry to hear that your first experience has been so negative.  I do know that there are some very nice people who only participate in the Forum Games section because things can get so very ramped up on the other boards.  

 

The double-edged blade of a brilliantly written series with such depth and complexity is that people get really invested in it, which leads sometimes to emotion taking over.  But do keep in mind that tone is very hard to distinguish over the internet--what someone means as funny may be perceived as mean instead.  

 

I hope you will stick around and enjoy some of the less divisive posts.  I highly recommend the one about the Velociraptor in Braavos as an example. :D

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

 

Thoughts? 

I like it.  

[Codename: Nymeria]

I like it.  

 

As LmL said in another thread, the wordplay is significant, and the fact that there's a dragon named "Morning" out there still strikes me as the kind of thing that's hit-you-over-the-head obvious to not end up being important. How does a long night end? With Dawn. Followed by Morning. Especially when the name of pretty much every other dragon is either something presumably out of old Valyrian, or something descriptive-ish (Sunfyre, Quicksilver, Seasmoke, Suncloud, etc).

 

I hope you will stick around and enjoy some of the less divisive posts.  I highly recommend the one about the Velociraptor in Braavos as an example. :D

 

Blue is secretly Jaqen H'ghar. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[Sly Wren]

 

As LmL said in another thread, the wordplay is significant, and the fact that there's a dragon named "Morning" out there still strikes me as the kind of thing that's hit-you-over-the-head obvious to not end up being important. How does a long night end? With Dawn. Followed by Morning. Especially when the name of pretty much every other dragon is either something presumably out of old Valyrian, or something descriptive-ish (Sunfyre, Quicksilver, Seasmoke, Suncloud, etc).

Wait--Morning is Arthur Dayne? Or just his sword? No wonder the Smiling Knight wanted it. 

 

Or are you saying Morning is Morning (Dawn) AND the Sword of the Morning--both the Sword and the Office in one? As you have definitively proven--everyone has a secret identity. . .

 

Blue is secretly Jaqen H'ghar. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Well, yes. He's keeping an eye on the Sealord for the FM.  That's just science.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

As LmL said in another thread, the wordplay is significant, and the fact that there's a dragon named "Morning" out there still strikes me as the kind of thing that's hit-you-over-the-head obvious to not end up being important. How does a long night end? With Dawn. Followed by Morning. Especially when the name of pretty much every other dragon is either something presumably out of old Valyrian, or something descriptive-ish (Sunfyre, Quicksilver, Seasmoke, Suncloud, etc).

 

 

Blue is secretly Jaqen H'ghar. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Morning didn't live long though.  So...should we be worried about that as a possible portent for the series?

 

I couldn't possibly. I am warned. :D

 

 

<snip

 

Well, yes. He's keeping an eye on the Sealord for the FM.  That's just science.

As long as it's not math.

[Codename: Nymeria]

Morning didn't live long though.  So...should we be worried about that as a possible portent for the series?

 

 

Well, that's if you believe the Maesters. I think there's a fairly good chance that Sam finds out something about the fate of Morning in TWOW, and I think it'll definitely have something to do with how to defeat the Others. I don't buy the whole "there's gonna be a raid on Oldtown" thinking about Sam's POV. Just doesn't seem like the IB should be that strong, unless Euron has something extra-crazy cooked up. Plus I think Marwyn is speaking from more than just mere conjecture when he's talking about dragons.

 

Plus, that wouldn't give him time to meet that 'Pate' fellow, who is maybe the one person in all of the novels I feel comfortable is actually who he says he is with no secret identity whatsoever, and certainly not Jaqen H'ghar in any way. Seems like a trustworthy guy, that Pate.

 

 

Wait--Morning is Arthur Dayne? Or just his sword? No wonder the Smiling Knight wanted it. 

 

Or are you saying Morning is Morning (Dawn) AND the Sword of the Morning--both the Sword and the Office in one? As you have definitively proven--everyone has a secret identity. . .

 

 

I haven't put that together as a theory yet, but LmL and I definitely had a conversation in another thread I am too lazy to look up where he agreed that word meanings like that were probably not a coincidence in relation to Dawn (I think it was about Dawn being part of a meteor...) Realistically, though, I think there's an argument to be made from the literary perspective that both are likely to play a role in opposing the Long Night.

 

Although the idea of Morning (the dragon) wielding the Sword of the Morning would make one kick-ass sigil. 

[Sly Wren]

Although the idea of Morning (the dragon) wielding the Sword of the Morning would make one kick-ass sigil. 

So, Azor-Ahai-Ser-Pounce-the-knife-cat would be the adversary, not the hero?

 

Knife-cat vs. Sword-dragon.

 

Seems like it would be easier for Morning to just eat the cat. Or just squash it with the meteor.

 

But that would make all the Maesters' efforts at the Citadel to covertly train dragons to be sword-fighting ninjas fruitless. Assuming these efforts weren't futile from the get-go.

[Rippounet]

I doubt the maesters have a living dragon, or that they used one at Summerhall.

 

That they somehow got a dragon and kept it locked underneath the Citadel to study it, on the other hand, is quite possible. They would have wanted, of course, to know how to kill it, and experimented various methods on it. The poor thing probably died of it all.

This could be an interesting plot twist if Sam somehow finds the bones of this dragon in a secret vault. Given what Marwyn told him, he (and the reader) might realize that the maesters have a secret anti-dragon/anti-magic/anti-Targ agenda. Given Sam's friendship with Jon, and Jon's likely father... This could be interesting. Sam might even be convinced that magic is a terrible thing (he wouldn't be that hard to convince, after what he's seen).

 

It's also possible the maesters were responsible for Summerhall. And the Dance of Dragons. And maybe pushed Rickard Stark to form an alliance powerful enough to end the Targaryens, thus setting the stage for Robert's Rebellion.

[WolfgangII]

 

"As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smole venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundred of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

 Daenerys X, A Game of Thrones

 

Besides of been one of the best lines in the series, I'll say that the description above have very clear meaning: before Dany's dragons were hatched, they were no others (at least to the knowledge of mankind, any man). That's why I don't believe any theory about secret, dormants and/or ice dragons. Drogo's funeral pyre was the most importan event in recent dragon history and I'm certain that Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal are the only three dragons alive at the moment.

[Codename: Nymeria]

Besides of been one of the best lines in the series, I'll say that the description above have very clear meaning: before Dany's dragons were hatched, they were no others (at least to the knowledge of mankind, any man). That's why I don't believe any theory about secret, dormants and/or ice dragons. Drogo's funeral pyre was the most importan event in recent dragon history and I'm certain that Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal are the only three dragons alive at the moment.

 

Putting aside the "Sam finds a dragon skeleton(s)" possibility for the moment, consider that "the music of dragons" is probably not something that would be produced by a captive dragon, only a free one. If the Maesters have one hidden away somewhere, it's i) clearly hidden away, so it can't "make the night come alive", and ii) probably sad, what with being captive, and not up for making a dragon's song. Besides, as I've discussed in other forums (and other people have pointed to that line as well), there's intended to be a sense of poetry to what's written, because we know quite clearly that it hasn't been "hundreds of years" since the last recorded living dragons; about 170 years, at the most.

[WolfgangII]

 

Putting aside the "Sam finds a dragon skeleton(s)" possibility for the moment, consider that "the music of dragons" is probably not something that would be produced by a captive dragon, only a free one. If the Maesters have one hidden away somewhere, it's i) clearly hidden away, so it can't "make the night come alive", and ii) probably sad, what with being captive, and not up for making a dragon's song. Besides, as I've discussed in other forums (and other people have pointed to that line as well), there's intended to be a sense of poetry to what's written, because we know quite clearly that it hasn't been "hundreds of years" since the last recorded living dragons; about 170 years, at the most.

 

You're right, it should be read as a poetic sentence, but before built a theory without zero textual data, we should notice the importance of the moment describe on that sentence. The hatching of Dany's dragon was a magical, one-of-a-kind (paraphrasing SSM here) event that has not only changed the life of Daenerys, but the lives of many people, both in Essos and Westeros. If suddenly, a dragon emerge from the catacombs of the Citadel, then (I feel) the funeral-pyre-event will be less extraordinary.

[Lord Varys]

There is little chance that the Citadel ever had a known dragon in their clutches. They could have taken a hatchling people believed to be dead, I guess, but there is no evidence for that. The chances are about zero that the Citadel captured Silverwing, the Cannibal, Sheepstealer, or Morrning.

[Codename: Nymeria]

 

You're right, it should be read as a poetic sentence, but before built a theory without zero textual data, we should notice the importance of the moment describe on that sentence. The hatching of Dany's dragon was a magical, one-of-a-kind (paraphrasing SSM here) event that has not only changed the life of Daenerys, but the lives of many people, both in Essos and Westeros. If suddenly, a dragon emerge from the catacombs of the Citadel, then (I feel) the funeral-pyre-event will be less extraordinary.

 

See, I don't think it makes it any less extraordinary. If the Maesters do have a dragon, it's purposes are clearly being perverted (in the non-sexual sense) in some way. The dragons are representative of the magic that in endemic to the world of Westeros; the rebirth would still represent the first new dragons in over a century, and has been commented on, a re-awakening of the more magical aspects of Planetos. So a captive dragon doesn't make it any less of a sea change in that sense, at least in the more abstract "presence of magic" sense in which I'm seeing it.

 

To be fair, I think GRRM was overstating a little in the SSM; of the other two theories pinned to my signature, the first is the other non-canon one (right? we can all agree the third is likely true at this point?), and also suggests a pyre-like event in relation to Jon. I don't think it was so much one-of-a-kind as much as never-seen-before-by-anyone-living.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

Well, that's if you believe the Maesters. I think there's a fairly good chance that Sam finds out something about the fate of Morning in TWOW, and I think it'll definitely have something to do with how to defeat the Others. I don't buy the whole "there's gonna be a raid on Oldtown" thinking about Sam's POV. Just doesn't seem like the IB should be that strong, unless Euron has something extra-crazy cooked up. Plus I think Marwyn is speaking from more than just mere conjecture when he's talking about dragons.

 

Plus, that wouldn't give him time to meet that 'Pate' fellow, who is maybe the one person in all of the novels I feel comfortable is actually who he says he is with no secret identity whatsoever, and certainly not Jaqen H'ghar in any way. Seems like a trustworthy guy, that Pate.

 

<snip

You have jogged something in my brain.  What if...Euron traded a dragon egg for far more than just Balon's death?  What if Pate H'ghar's mission in Oldtown is something he's been commissioned to do by Euron?  There's been some talk (on the boards, not in the books) about Jaqen maybe being a rogue agent--though why he'd still be recruiting for the establishment in that case is beyond me.

[Lord Varys]

It is unlikely that Euron is behind Jaqen's mission in Oldtown, but it is important to speculate whether he is there on a mission some client paid him/the House of Black and White for, or whether the House of Black and White sent him there. I'd not be surprised if the latter was the case - if it is the former then Varys is a very likely considering that Jaqen was in Rugen/Varys' care before he was allowed to leave KL with Yoren.

 

Samwell most certainly will investigate the Citadel conspiracy (if there is any), and I guess we'll get some insight into the historical plot against the dragons if there are any documents or people that are informed.

[Codename: Nymeria]

It is unlikely that Euron is behind Jaqen's mission in Oldtown, but it is important to speculate whether he is there on a mission some client paid him/the House of Black and White for, or whether the House of Black and White sent him there. I'd not be surprised if the latter was the case - if it is the former then Varys is a very likely considering that Jaqen was in Rugen/Varys' care before he was allowed to leave KL with Yoren.

 

Samwell most certainly will investigate the Citadel conspiracy (if there is any), and I guess we'll get some insight into the historical plot against the dragons if there are any documents or people that are informed.

 

The latter would be suggesting that the House of B&W sent him there as punishment? That seems unlikely, both in the possibility of they're having some alliance with the Crown, and with them welcoming Jaqen back to the House once he returned from Westeros. I feel like it's pretty likely someone arranged for him to be there for a purpose, much like someone arranged for him to be be in Oldtown for a purpose. Speaking of which...are there any theories as to what Sarella's game here is? Or are we just assuming she's there to learn things that females otherwise can't learn in Westeros?

[Lord Varys]

Well, if Jaqen is working for Varys he could have failed in his original mission - whatever that was - or he was about to return to Braavos from a previous mission when he was caught. We don't know what got him into the cell, but one assumes that Varys might be able to recognize him for what he is.

 

If the House of Black and White sent him then some accident may have gotten him into the cell, too. We simply don't know why he was there.

 

Sarella seems to be in Oldtown because she wants to learn stuff. That much is clear.

[RomKat]

It would be f'ing great if they had one or two stored away somewhere!

 

Maybe Sam is in for a big surprise when he goes searching around for books!

But imagine if he was able to ride one.xD

[Lady Blizzardborn]

But imagine if he was able to ride one.xD

R+L=S lives.

[Maester of Valyria]

We DO know where at least three of the four surviving dragons went after the Dance:

1. We are never told in The World of Ice and Fire what happens to Morning after the war, only that she was too young to take part in it. However, in the Dunk and Egg novels we are told that Ser Arsten saw the 'last dragon' as a boy in King's Landing. As the other three dragons were away from King's Landing at this point, we must assume that Ser Arsten's dragon is Morning. She died in King's Landing soon after.
2. Sheepstealer: Nettles and her dragon vanish at the end of the war. She is said to have flown east, which is towards the Vale. We are told that 'none could say where they went until years after,' implying that it is now known where they went. In the section on the Vale's mountain clans, we are told that the Burned Men tribe, the practice of burning yourself originated in the 'years after the Dance of the Dragons...when an offshoot clan of the Painted Dogs were said to have worshipped a fire-witch in the mountains'. This needs no further explaination: Nettles and Sheepstealer seem to have lived in the Vale until their deaths.
3. Silverwing: She is said to have become wild, and 'made her lair in an isle in Red Lake'.

All we are told of the Cannibal is that he vanished at the war's end.

 

If your theory is true, I believe that the Maesters will have had/have either Silverwing or the Cannibal. An examination of a map will show you that Red Lake is reasonably close to Oldtown, which is why I think Silverwing is more likely. She would also be easier to control, as she is more accustomed to humans. However, her whereabouts are known, and we are told nothing about her vanishing, which suggests to me that she remained on Red Lake. The Cannibal may be more likely from this viewpoint, as he vanished completely and without trace.