Rob and the Vale declares for Stannis

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

Could the Vale, North/Riverlands and Stormlands/Narrow Sea/Reach Army under Robb, Stannis and Bronze Yohn Royce defeat Tywin and the Tyrells?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes.

 

Not even the slightest problem. Robb on his own curbstomped Tywin.

[KingStannisFan]

This is five Kingdoms. lol. So I think obviously

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

by the numbers it is close but I agree, in fact they probably don't need the Vale

[Ser Jennings]

It could be possible, but you have to consider that Lysa has become afraid of being unguarded, therefore, she wouldn't send her men to go to war and Stannis would never join Robb because Robb is also disputing the Throne and Stannis sees himself as the rightful heir.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes.

 

Not even the slightest problem. Robb on his own curbstomped Tywin.

 

No he didnt. And Robb was not on his own, he had the Riverlands with him while Tywin was focused on both Stannis and Renly at the time.

 

It is not like it was just Robb vs Tywin.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It could be possible, but you have to consider that Lysa has become afraid of being unguarded, therefore, she wouldn't send her men to go to war and Stannis would never join Robb because Robb is also disputing the Throne and Stannis sees himself as the rightful heir.

All Stannis would have had to do was sent out the incest letter a couple months earlier and Robb would swear to him.

 

Like anytime during the three months between Ned's arrest and Robb being crowned. Afterwards, it was a done deal.

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

Stannis could also have sent out the letter as soon as Robert died,

[pettes]

Or told everyione as soon as he found out so Robert could remarry and get a New heir

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

Only if Jon Arryn co signed the letter otherwise Robert wouldn't believe it

[lyannaisalive]

 

No he didnt. And Robb was not on his own, he had the Riverlands with him while Tywin was focused on both Stannis and Renly at the time.

 

It is not like it was just Robb vs Tywin.

Robb constantly defeated Tywin on the field, or at least his hosts and generals. He captured Jaime and destroyed Tywins host at RR. Than he circumvented the golden tooth pass and destroyed Tywins newly created host and was in control of the westerlands, if Edmure doesn't attack Tywin then Robb most likely captures or kills him.  Robbs blunders came politically. On the battlefield Robb had Tywin on his heels. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb constantly defeated Tywin on the field,

They never actually fought.
 

or at least his hosts and generals.

Consistently? Nope. His forces had a pretty sizeable defeats at the Green Fork, Duskendale and the Ruby Ford.

 

It was a lot closer than you make it out to be, though it should be with Robb commanding the armies from to realms.

He captured Jaime and destroyed Tywins host at RR.

Yes he captured Jaime. I wouldnt say destroyed as we know one of the 3 Lannister(4,000) camps got away without a fight.

 

We don't know how many others escaped from the combined Northern and Riverland army.
 

Than he circumvented the golden tooth pass and destroyed Tywins newly created host

Again we have no idea how many he actually killed as they were said to have retreated back to Lannisport and Robb was not strong enough to attack it.
 

and was in control of the westerlands,

Nope, not even close. He had two castles, one of which was more ruin than castle.
 

if Edmure doesn't attack Tywin then Robb most likely captures or kills him.

Robb had 6,000. He was greatly outnumbered in enemy territory and was injured.

 

Edmure saved Robb's ass.

Robbs blunders came politically.

True dat!

 

But also military as well. Leaving his capital exposed was a huge blunder.

On the battlefield Robb had Tywin on his heels.

So why did he never try to fight him? Why did he send Roose to the Green Fork, why did he run West instead of East to confront Tywin?

 

He never had him on his heels.

 

Tywin was more concerned with Stannis and Renly than he was of Robb.

 

Robbs biggest failing was not politically but that he was only focused on one enemy. He focused all his energy and resources on the Lannister faction while ignoring any other threat.

 

Tywin had to leave his navy in the West incase of attack from the Ironborn, had to leave his capital, his city and other valuable settlements such as Golden Tooth well defended incase of attack and had to focus on the approaching Baratheon Bros. Robb was lucky that Tywin had bigger fish to fry.

 

While Robb was playing checkers Tywin was playing Chess.

[Lee-Sensei]

Robb constantly defeated Tywin on the field, or at least his hosts and generals. He captured Jaime and destroyed Tywins host at RR. Than he circumvented the golden tooth pass and destroyed Tywins newly created host and was in control of the westerlands, if Edmure doesn't attack Tywin then Robb most likely captures or kills him.  Robbs blunders came politically. On the battlefield Robb had Tywin on his heels.

There's a difference between winning battles and winning wars. What's the point of achieving tactical victories if you can't cobble it all together into an operational success.

[lyannaisalive]

They never actually fought.
 

Consistently? Nope. His forces had a pretty sizeable defeats at the Green Fork, Duskendale and the Ruby Ford.

 

It was a lot closer than you make it out to be, though it should be with Robb commanding the armies from to realms.

Yes he captured Jaime. I wouldnt say destroyed as we know one of the 3 Lannister(4,000) camps got away without a fight.

 

We don't know how many others escaped from the combined Northern and Riverland army.
 

Again we have no idea how many he actually killed as they were said to have retreated back to Lannisport and Robb was not strong enough to attack it.
 

Nope, not even close. He had two castles, one of which was more ruin than castle.
 

Robb had 6,000. He was greatly outnumbered in enemy territory and was injured.

 

Edmure saved Robb's ass.

True dat!

 

But also military as well. Leaving his capital exposed was a huge blunder.

So why did he never try to fight him? Why did he send Roose to the Green Fork, why did he run West instead of East to confront Tywin?

 

He never had him on his heels.

 

Tywin was more concerned with Stannis and Renly than he was of Robb.

 

Robbs biggest failing was not politically but that he was only focused on one enemy. He focused all his energy and resources on the Lannister faction while ignoring any other threat.

 

Tywin had to leave his navy in the West incase of attack from the Ironborn, had to leave his capital, his city and other valuable settlements such as Golden Tooth well defended incase of attack and had to focus on the approaching Baratheon Bros. Robb was lucky that Tywin had bigger fish to fry.

 

While Robb was playing checkers Tywin was playing Chess.

1. If you are not going to conede that Robb didnt defeat Tywin, then you cant say Robb was defeated seeing as he wasnt commander of those battles either

 

2. when you consider that of the approx 12000 men at RR (IIRC) only 4000 escaped plus the fact that Robbs losses were pretty insignificant than saying he destroyed it could be argued but the point is it was a complete victory for robb when you add in the loss of jaimes men at WW and of course capturing Jaime himself and it forces Tywin to retreat. Robb Wins WW and takes RR while gaining more men than he lost. 

 

3. some retreated but the outcome is the same as riverrun. Robb has virtually taken control of the Westerlands, not CR or Lannisport. But tywin has lost a lot of resources. Glover and karstark are raiding the coasts, has captured livestock for his armies, and captures three goldmines. So he did control the westerlands there isnt a force to stop him, he is smart enough not to attack CR because it be impossible to take in a quick manner. 

 

4. Robb has 6000 men in the westerlands but if Tywin comes west he is surrounded on three sides by Robb, Edmure and Bolton and KL is likely taken if he cant arrive in time. 

 

Robb didn't face Tywin head on because at that point it would have been a mistake. Robb doesn't fall into Tywin's traps militarily. Tywin is at Harrenhal because no matter where Robb move to attack him he would be in a position to move against him or reinforce KL without fear of being cut off. Robb going west forces Tywin to come after him. Tywin being focused on Stannis at the beginning is a moot point. Because he realizes he underestimated Robb, Tywin thought he would easily defeat Robb so he could focus on Stannis, Robb forcing Tywin to fight him longer is in itself one of his greatest victories. If Ned is leading that army south Tywin strategy is likely completely different IMO, Tywin underestimating Robb should not be held against Robb as a military commander. I disagree with claiming Robb curb stopped him, but militarily on the field Robb's strategies were beating Tywin's.Tywin had more to focus on but Robb was smart enough to use that to his advantage.  

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1. If you are not going to conede that Robb didnt defeat Tywin, then you cant say Robb was defeated seeing as he wasnt commander of those battles either

 
Can you read?
 
Where in that post did I say that Robb was defeated?

 

2. when you consider that of the approx 12000 men at RR (IIRC) only 4000 escapedplus the fact that Robbs losses were pretty insignificant than saying he destroyed it could be argued but the point is it was a complete victory for robb when you add in the loss of jaimes men at WW and of course capturing Jaime himself and it forces Tywin to retreat. Robb Wins WW and takes RR while gaining more men than he lost.

We don't know how many escaped. We know that one bank commanded by Forely left, we don't know how many others escaped (or didnt) from the banks.

 

Yet another invalid point.

3. some retreated but the outcome is the same as riverrun. Robb has virtually taken control of the Westerlands, not CR or Lannisport.

I'm sorry but repeating a stupid point does not make it any more valid. The Westerlands is a pretty big place and the Crag is described as more ruin than castle.

 

Robb took one important castle, Ashemark. He was not strong enough to take Golden Tooth, Lannisport and Casterly Rock and had no control over Feast Fires, Banefort, Cornfield, Hornvale, Crakehall, Faircastle, Deep Den, Sarsfield, Wyndhall, Green Field, Silver Hill or the many other Westerland settlements.

 

He was not in control of the Westerlands, he didnt even leave a garrison at Ashemark or the Crag when he left those places. He was simply raiding some of the weaker locations.

4. Robb has 6000 men in the westerlands but if Tywin comes west he is surrounded on three sides by Robb, Edmure and Bolton and KL is likely taken if he cant arrive in time.

 

How is he surrounded? There are multiple exits in and of the West. And it is his territory, not only is he bringing a bigger army into the West but he would have command of Staffords remaining army and the garrisons at each of the Castles.

 

Unless Robb ran pretty quick he was the one likely to be trapped in the West and according to Robb Edmure was supposed to sit tight in Riverrun and do nothing about it.

Robb didn't face Tywin head on because at that point it would have been a mistake. Robb doesn't fall into Tywin's traps militarily.

So then, he does not have Tywin on the heels. Unless you are using phrases that you are unaware of what they mean?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Depends on when the Vale joined the war. If it was before the Blackwater, the Lannisters are fucked. If it was after, then the war could go either way. The Tyrells can still field probably twice the numbers the Arryns can

 

Yes.

 

Not even the slightest problem. Robb on his own curbstomped Tywin.

 

Oh come on...  :rolleyes:

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Oh come on...  :rolleyes:

 

75% losses and the Lannister war council explicitly stating that they have indeed lost, with the small problem that they can't surrender despite wishing to? Pretty convincing argument for me.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
75% losses and the Lannister war council explicitly stating that they have indeed lost, with the small problem that they can't surrender despite wishing to? Pretty convincing argument for me.

Robb was certainly winning but curbstomped means Tywin would've also lost in the field to robb with most of his host before robb took kl or the rock and that just didn't happen.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

75% losses and the Lannister war council explicitly stating that they have indeed lost, with the small problem that they can't surrender despite wishing to? Pretty convincing argument for me.

 

Where do you get 75% from?

 

And the war coucil? You mean Swyft? Not the actual war coucil. After Robb won at Riverrun he had some of his war council suggesting peace as well.

[lyannaisalive]

 
Can you read?
 
Where in that post did I say that Robb was defeated?

 

We don't know how many escaped. We know that one bank commanded by Forely left, we don't know how many others escaped (or didnt) from the banks.

 

Yet another invalid point.

I'm sorry but repeating a stupid point does not make it any more valid. The Westerlands is a pretty big place and the Crag is described as more ruin than castle.

 

Robb took one important castle, Ashemark. He was not strong enough to take Golden Tooth, Lannisport and Casterly Rock and had no control over Feast Fires, Banefort, Cornfield, Hornvale, Crakehall, Faircastle, Deep Den, Sarsfield, Wyndhall, Green Field, Silver Hill or the many other Westerland settlements.

 

He was not in control of the Westerlands, he didnt even leave a garrison at Ashemark or the Crag when he left those places. He was simply raiding some of the weaker locations.

 

How is he surrounded? There are multiple exits in and of the West. And it is his territory, not only is he bringing a bigger army into the West but he would have command of Staffords remaining army and the garrisons at each of the Castles.

 

Unless Robb ran pretty quick he was the one likely to be trapped in the West and according to Robb Edmure was supposed to sit tight in Riverrun and do nothing about it.

So then, he does not have Tywin on the heels. Unless you are using phrases that you are unaware of what they mean?

You state "Consistently? Nope. His forces had a pretty sizeable defeats at the Green Fork, Duskendale and the Ruby Ford". Perhaps I misconstrued what you were trying to say if so I apologize, but to me it read like you were counting Robbs losses against him yet arguing Robbs victories against tywins other hosts dont reflect Tywins abilities as a commander. 

 

It says that the sellswords went to Robbs side. But isn't it said that Forley retreated because the other two camps had been overrun. Brynden attacked the northern camp while they are still completely unaware, its safe to assume very few escaped that camp. some men are killed in boats while trying to aid them. Robb attacks the middle camp and RR opens its gates to aid him. That camp is surround by water on two sides and armies on the other two, hard to imagine many escape there. It's not an invalid point. The outcomes are not hard to conclude with what information there is. 

 

Again im not sure how it is a stupid point. There wasn't anybody to challenge Robb in the Westerlands, if you want to argue physical control than yes, Robb did not control the Westerlands. But there is a reason nobody moved against him, because they couldn't.

 

Robbs actions in the Westerlands FORCE Tywin to try and move against him. Tywin cant allow Robb to go unhindered in the Westerlands. Robb sought to further his own strategic objectives (preventing himself from being flanked, resupplying his forces,  taking the fight out of his own territory). Tywin can either take it or leave it. He can come after Robb and abandon KL or go to KL and risk losing CR  (or lannisport) should Robb choose to move on it. Robb has tywin on his heels because no matter what choice he makes Tywin is in a difficult situation. Until Edmure stops Tywin, Robb is virtually a win-win situation. 

 

Im giving my opinions. you are turning a simple discussion that could have been interesting intro nothing but personal attacks.