Arya's Purpose?

[siyrean]

you know, as much as i love the talk about Arya becoming super assasin killing off all the Freys and Kings Landing to boot, some how i never got the impression that the FM got to run around killing on their own agenda, nor that it was the type of job you could just quit after learning all the super covert death cults secrets.

actually the very idea that they had their own agenda goes against all their training. if Arya dies, i've got a feeling it'll be the FM that do it.

[majander]

I disagree. I don't think we've been given any evidence that supports that each FM still clings to some part of their past identity, or that it has only become "an aspect" of who they are now. That's why they become "no one," because that's what they become. They forsake ALL of their past to become no one, and despite Arya's best efforts to do so, GRRM says she's (subconsciously) not ready because she hides Needle under the loose stone outside the temple. I think she's gone blind as some form of punishment. They know what she's done, or that she's still hiding something, I mean, they called her a liar every time she said she was "no one..." they've got to know. My SINCEREST, ABIDING HOPE is that she clings enough to her Starkness to remain a Stark. I hate this path she's taken. If she becomes a full-fledged FM, I will retch.

I suppose that what I was suggesting is that it seems unrealistic for a group pf badasss assassins to expect someone to completely deny their previous identitiy within a few months of starting training. One of the first things we see of Ned in the series as a whole is the execution of a NW deserter. By replicating this action Arya is behaving more like her father than at any point since she left Winterfell. Identifying that those were the actions ofArya Stark is at once showing a great deal of insight and idetifying to the Kindly Man in some way that there is a degree of separation between "Cat" and Arya. I suspect that this level of insight is the bare minimum required to progress with the training, and that further separation and then loss of identitiy will be expected at different stages.

[Maia]

So? It's not because you have good reasons to be what you are that you are any less what you are. Arya takes pleasure in the prospect of killing, kills easily, does so when she pleases, without even discussing it with someone else, and feels no guilt anymore, that's fact. You can avoid calling it being a psycho, but it doesn't change what she does. It's disturbing, even if, once again, she has good reasons.

I don't recall Arya taking pleasure in the prospect of killing. As for the rest of it, how does it make her any different than most important male characters, including Robb and Jon? Basically, everybody who was forced to kill repeatedly in order to survive and/or prove themselves does it pretty easily, no? Even Ned did. And discuss it? Why should she discuss it and who else did we see doing so? Basically, most of it is only "disturbing" to some, because Arya is a girl. If it had been Rickon, he'd have been just considered a badass. For that matter, isn't it how people see Pod, who also kills easily when situation warrants it from his POV?

[Errant Bard]

“Ser Gregor,†she chanted, as she crossed a stone bridge supported by four arches. From the center of its span she could see the masts of ships in the Ragman’s Harbor. “Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei.†Rain began to fall. Arya turned her face up to let the raindrops wash her cheeks, so happy she could dance. “Valar morghulis,†she said, “valar morghulis, valar morghulis.â€

As to how it makes her different, she kills for herself, when they kill either in self defense or for something greater than them. They also both have people they are accountable to and fight for and alongside to, when she is fighting for herself by herself.

she kills more than them, too of course, despite not being assaulted by hordes of wildlings or fighting a war, but that's irrelevant.

Look, I have no problem with Arya killing people right and left, I just see that her motivation and relationship with killing is now different from the other characters.

And no, it's not disturbing just because she is a girl. Maybe you think a boy thinking the above thoughts is pretty well adjusted, but I don't, so please don't put words in my mouth, ok?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Basically, most of it is only "disturbing" to some, because Arya is a girl. If it had been Rickon, he'd have been just considered a badass. For that matter, isn't it how people see Pod, who also kills easily when situation warrants it from his POV?

That's a pretty specious comparison. Pod, who kills Mandon Moore in a combat situation to save somebody's life, and who is clearly upset about it afterwards (if you read the last Tyrion chapter in A Clash of Kings, he visibly flinches when Tyrion simply mentions his name, and cannot admit to killing him), is comparable to Arya, who is in the habit of killing people who pose no threat to her, who can now do so without sparing it a second thought?

For that matter, Robb is clearly upset after executing Rickard Karstark. Here's Jeyne Westerling talking to Catelyn afterwards: "He's so miserable, so... so angry and disconsolate." If that's not enough, how about his reaction immediately following the execution: "Robb flung the poleaxe down in disgust, and turned wordless to the heart tree. he stood shaking with his hands half-clenched and the rain running down his cheeks." Sounds like he's doing it pretty easily, right? Jon, as well, does not kill "pretty easily" outside of a combat situation. He refuses to kill the old man in the inn besides Queenscrown, he lets Ygritte go with her life, and twice he can't bring himself to kill Mance Rayder, either at the Fist of the First Men or later, during the parlay right before Stannis attacks. These aren't false choices either; Jon believes that he's been ordered to kill Ygritte, and there's a clear tactical reason to kill the old man and especially Mance Rayder.

I realize that sexism isn't exactly uncommon on these boards, but to argue that the reaction to Arya is based purely on sexism is simply risible. It ignores Arya's character arc since the end of AGoT to the present, and conflates combat and simple murder. People do not, so far as I know, call Arya a psychopath for killing Amory Lorch's men when he's storming the holdfast; nor have I seen threads labelling Brienne a psychopath for killing Rorge or the other Brave Companions. People react badly to Arya because she is capable of casually murdering a man who, while selfish, was neither a threat to her nor somebody she had the right to kill, then stripping the body and dumping it into a canal, without breaking a sweat internally or externally. Find me another character who has done _that_, male or female, and I'll call them a psychopath too.

[Maia]

As to how it makes her different, she kills for herself, when they kill either in self defense or for something greater than them. They also both have people they are accountable to and fight for and alongside to, when she is fighting for herself by herself.

Greater than them? Robb fought for revenge, mostly. And Arya's revenge fantasies weren't just on behalf of herself, but also on behalf of the family and other people who had suffered and were killed by those on her list.

"Robb flung the poleaxe down in disgust, and turned wordless to the heart tree. he stood shaking with his hands half-clenched and the rain running down his cheeks." Sounds like he's doing it pretty easily, right? Jon, as well, does not kill "pretty easily" outside of a combat situation. He refuses to kill the old man in the inn besides Queenscrown, he lets Ygritte go with her life, and twice he can't bring himself to kill Mance Rayder, either at the Fist of the First Men or later, during the parlay right before Stannis attacks.

Was it just because Robb abhorred killing in a non-combat situation or was it because he hated killing a prominent vassal, a man whose sons died to protect him? He is the same person who ordered raids on the Lannister lands, raids in which civilians were also murdered. Civilians are fairly casually murdered by people in his service, too. And yet, from Cat's POV we know that Robb really likes war.

As to Jon, the Old man didn't do anything to him, nor was he a potential danger of his own volition. We have no idea whether Arya would have casually killed somebody like that. Ygritte was a woman and Jon has been conditioned not to kill women. If she had been a man, he would have killed him and wouldn't have agonized over it afterwards. And killing Mance would have also been suicide, so not comparable with situation that Arya was in. Jon is brave, but not recklessly eager to throw his life away while there is an alternative. If Jon had to kill Mance in order to survive, he would have done so easily and efficiently.

People react badly to Arya because she is capable of casually murdering a man who, while selfish, was neither a threat to her nor somebody she had the right to kill, then stripping the body and dumping it into a canal, without breaking a sweat internally or externally. Find me another character who has done _that_, male or female, and I'll call them a psychopath too.

I don't recall Ned agonizing over his execution of an NW deserter and both Robb and Jon would have killed him too.

And there are lots of characters who kill more easily than Arya, but aren't considered "disturbed" - Jaime, Sandor, Oberyn, Theon, Shagga, etc. Even Ned killed rather easily when he felt that situation warranted it.

Oh, an about Pod? He was afraid to talk about killing a KG in chaotic and unclear circumstances - something that could have had terrible reprecussions for him. I don't see any indication that he was tormented by the deed itself.

[Szar]

People react badly to Arya because she is capable of casually murdering a man who, while selfish, was neither a threat to her nor somebody she had the right to kill, then stripping the body and dumping it into a canal, without breaking a sweat internally or externally. Find me another character who has done _that_, male or female, and I'll call them a psychopath too.

She executed a deserter. While it was done pretty callously, she had a reason. Psychopath? No -- not yet. She's on the verge of becoming one, I agree, but she is not at the point where she could kill random people for no reason.

As for "right", she had every right to kill him. He was a deserter, and she had the power, the means, and the opportunity to punish him. A deserter's life is forfeit -- remember Ned's words at the beginning of AGOT? "In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile." Given her upbringing, she almost had to kill him.

[Errant Bard]

Greater than them? Robb fought for revenge, mostly. And Arya's revenge fantasies weren't just on behalf of herself, but also on behalf of the family and other people who had suffered and were killed by those on her list.

Oh, please, GreatJon Umber had more to do with Robb's decision than Robb himself.

And I'm not talking about Arya's revenge fantasy, once again, why are you avoiding the subject? I'm talking about her motivation and approach to killing.

Newsflash: the only people on her list that she killed are mere guards, the rest were unrelated people who happened to inconvenience her at the time. On the other hand, people who deserve it, like the Hound, she lets go. This is neither justice nor revenge.

Motivation to kill Weese? He was mean to her. Motivation to kill the guard at the door? He was in her way. Motivation to kill Dareon? Not sure, but she was judge and executer, and stole his boots. But the most telling of all is the woman in Saltpan, she contemplated murdering her because she felt cheated and didn't do it not because it's wrong but because she might be caught. This is fighting on behalf of someone? Bullshit.

I don't recall Ned agonizing over his execution of an NW deserter and both Robb and Jon would have killed him too.

And there are lots of characters who kill more easily than Arya, but aren't considered "disturbed" - Jaime, Sandor, Oberyn, Theon, Shagga, etc. Even Ned killed rather easily when he felt that situation warranted it.

Oh, an about Pod? He was afraid to talk about killing a KG in chaotic and unclear circumstances - something that could have had terrible reprecussions for him. I don't see any indication that he was tormented by the deed itself.

Are you that obtuse or is it on purpose that you are ignoring the different circumstances they were in when they did the deed?

Yes, of course death row executioners, marines in Iraq, people killing in self defense are the same as serial murderers, yes, of course...

[Insert Edit]

So Arya Stark is going to become a member of a covert group of assassins, who murder people for money - and we're not going to see her go down the road necessary to get there?

Circumstances dictate a LOT of the actions that Martin's characters take. That's part of what I love about his writing. Arya kills a character 'because he was in her way...' and that's a bad thing?

I don't get it. What should she do? Give up? Not try to get out of her situations?

[Errant Bard]

I don't get it. What should she do? Give up? Not try to get out of her situations?

What about trying to think of a way to get out without killing first?

You mean seriously contemplating killing a car salesman because he won't give you much money for your stolen old car is normal? Or killing your boss because he's mean and has authority on you?

Once again, I'm baffled to see that killing is accepted as the normal, everyday, default way to do things for a normal person.

Also, yes other people are psychotic and dangerous bastards, like Oberyn or Gregor. Yes, Arya is also badass. Doesn't make murder more right.

[Happy Ent]

Other nice Arya moments: When Gendry tells her he knows she's a girl:

Arya glared at the gnarled root by her feet. She realized that the pretense was done. Gendry knew, and she had nothing in her pants to convince him otherwise. She could draw Needle and kill him where he stood, or else trust him. She wasn’t certain she’d be able to kill him, even if she tried; he had his own sword, and he was a lot stronger. All that was left was the truth. “Lommy and Hot Pie can’t know,†she said.

She actually thinks about killing him!

A bit later, at Harrenhal, Arya learns that Hot Pie heard her yell Winterfell! as a battle cry:

“I will,†she said, even though she thought go to hell was a stupid thing to yell. She didn’t dare tell Hot Pie who she really was. Maybe I should say Hot Pie’s name to Jaqen.

Again she considers killing a friend.

[Insert Edit]

What about trying to think of a way to get out without killing first?

You mean seriously contemplating killing a car salesman because he won't give you much money for your stolen old car is normal? Or killing your boss because he's mean and has authority on you?

Once again, I'm baffled to see that killing is accepted as the normal, everyday, default way to do things for a normal person.

Also, yes other people are psychotic and dangerous bastards, like Oberyn or Gregor. Yes, Arya is also badass. Doesn't make murder more right.

I'd have to go back and re-read the chapter, but I'm laboring under the idea that she'd have been basically skinned if she'd been caught trying to escape. It was an all or nothing kind of deal.

And that's the point I'm (perhaps badly) trying to make. What the heck has MY situation with a used car salesman got to do with Arya's life or death struggle to survive in a war-torn Westeros? Of COURSE I'm not in that situation, because my life, limb, and virginity aren't at risk when I go to sell my used car.

The fact that she CONSIDERS killing Hot Pie or Gendry, or the old lady who cheated her at Saltpans - shows what she's gone through. She's manufactured by her circumstances - that's my impression at least. She wasn't a killer in a dress running through the Halls of Winterfell - torturing small castle animals like Joffrey. She was an awkward, spirited girl who didn't fit into the life she was to lead.

Then *hit happened. People died. A lot of people. She got to see a LOT of them die up close.

Think of another way? Huh? Yeah, she'd not seen any examples of people in her travels who'd thought to do things a different way...

The only thing you've got on her (as I see it) is her killing of the singer, and dumping is body in a canal. That was pretty effed up. I'm thinking we're going to learn more about that as the story unfolds.

[Insert Edit]

Other nice Arya moments: When Gendry tells her he knows she's a girl:

She actually thinks about killing him!

A bit later, at Harrenhal, Arya learns that Hot Pie heard her yell Winterfell! as a battle cry:

Again she considers killing a friend.

I don't see this as unusual given what her character has experienced and lived...

[Maia]

Oh, please, GreatJon Umber had more to do with Robb's decision than Robb himself.

I don't see it. Robb himself said that since Lannisters killed his father he'd never make peace with them.

Newsflash: the only people on her list that she killed are mere guards, the rest were unrelated people who happened to inconvenience her at the time. On the other hand, people who deserve it, like the Hound, she lets go.

"Mere" guards and unrelated persons who were endangering her life. She knew that she'd be killed if she was forced to stay in the Red Keep and she knew that she'd be killed if she was forced to stay in Harrenhal after Bolton pulled out. She was right in both cases. And she did specifically think that a guard would prevent her escape and was reluctant to kill a fellow northener, but she didn't see another viable escape option and frankly neither do I. Maybe she could have tried to stage a distraction, but that would have been much more uncertain and also would have given her a much shorter start advantage. It isn't like odds weren't heavily against a safe escape already. As to the Hound, IMHO her inability to kill him in cold blood while he was helpless shows that she wasn't a psycho, but just a hardened survivor.

Motivation to kill Weese? He was mean to her

Well, that and she was testing Jaquen's word. Also, it bought her more freedom. But yes, very dubious. Not nearly as dubious as raids against civilians lead by Robb, Jaime and Theon though. Or Sandor's bestial murder of Mycah. Or murders of women and and children sanctioned and ordered by Robert. Etc.

Motivation to kill Dareon?

Ned's conditioning. That wacky psycho Ned taught his children that one shouldn't suffer an NW deserter to live, even though the practical demonstration was reserved only for the boys.

But the most telling of all is the woman in Saltpan, she contemplated murdering her because she felt cheated and didn't do it not because it's wrong but because she might be caught.

That money was vital for Arya's survival and reaching someplace safe. The woman was basically robbing her. Even so, thoughts aren't actions. If you hold a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Arya had killed a lot in order to survive, so it is not surprising that the idea occurs to her. But whether she would have acted on it if she could is not clear. How many times did she dream about killing the Hound?

Happy Ent:

Yes, Arya did consider killing her comrades. But don't forget that Yoren warned her that she'd be in grave peril if outed as a girl and/or a Stark. And Gendry has previously suggested abandoning a small child and another wounded comrade to their deaths, so Arya's concerns weren't totally unfounded either. In a way, Arya is much less callous than Gendry, for instance, although she is more of a killer. She would risk her life to help a helpless victim, for instance.

[Mutethunder]

Arya was remembering the stableboy at King's Landing. After him there'd been that guard whose throat she cut at Harrenhal, an Ser Armory's men at that holdfast by the lake. She didn't know if Weese and Chiswyck counted, or the ones who'd died on account of the weasel soup... all of a sudden, she felt very sad.

That's from her first conversation with Edric Dayne, it's clear she feel sad about taking lives. Though there were only Weese and Chiswyck she had killed that wasn't purely for survival.

The next ones she killed was the squire and the Tickler, again survival

Then there's Dareon, a deserter from Night's Watch, and as a deserter he's up for execution anyhow. As the only living Stark, as far as Arya know, she probably felt that it was within her rights and honoured her father etc.

I can't recall if she thought about killing anyone that bothered her in Braavos, except for those allready on her list. She threatened the Bravos that bothered Sam, but she knew who they were and so I assume she was pretty certain that nothing would happen.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Was it just because Robb abhorred killing in a non-combat situation or was it because he hated killing a prominent vassal, a man whose sons died to protect him?

The former, almost certainly. Watch Robb's reaction: he's resolute before he does the deed, and then it takes three strikes of the poleaxe to remove the head, he's drenched in blood, and he reacts as described. It's the act of killing that provokes his reaction.

I don't recall Ned agonizing over his execution of an NW deserter and both Robb and Jon would have killed him too.

Oh, come on now. Have you even _read_ the books? The one thing that we're told consistently about Ned is that he does not enjoy execution, that he does it as his duty but believes that it should never be easy. Anybody who actually knows Ned says as much. Whenever he has to execute somebody, he seeks out the quiet of the godswood afterwards, and not because he's in a good mood. It's for solace; Catelyn says as much to Jeyne, that he would go there because "in the north, the winters will come."

Ned's conditioning. That wacky psycho Ned taught his children that one shouldn't suffer an NW deserter to live, even though the practical demonstration was reserved only for the boys.

Um... no. Ned taught his children that the trueborn Lord of Winterfell has the obligation to execute any Night's Watch deserters who are found in the North. Westerosi law is quite clear on the point that only _lords_ have the right of pit and gallows, not landed knights, commoners, little sisters, or anybody else who doesn't like what you're doing. Ned's comments to Bran are explicitly based on the assumption that somebody Bran will become a lord in service to Robb.

[siyrean]

The fact that she CONSIDERS killing Hot Pie or Gendry, or the old lady who cheated her at Saltpans - shows what she's gone through. She's manufactured by her circumstances - that's my impression at least. She wasn't a killer in a dress running through the Halls of Winterfell - torturing small castle animals like Joffrey. She was an awkward, spirited girl who didn't fit into the life she was to lead.

Then *hit happened. People died. A lot of people. She got to see a LOT of them die up close.

Think of another way? Huh? Yeah, she'd not seen any examples of people in her travels who'd thought to do things a different way...

The only thing you've got on her (as I see it) is her killing of the singer, and dumping is body in a canal. That was pretty effed up. I'm thinking we're going to learn more about that as the story unfolds.

just because we know WHY she became a psychopath doesn't change the fact that she's now one. yeah a lot of the killing she's done can be justified as survival but the thing is, we've seen her grow through the series and by the end of AFFC i do believe she's crossed that line from survival and just believeing that she's allowed to kill whom ever she likes because she desides its nessisary.

[Errant Bard]

double post

[Errant Bard]

Let's not go into extremes either, "psychopath" carries such a negative meaning that I think people imagine that we argue that Arya is a bloodthirsty serial murderer killing at random, and that all of her kills were unwarranted. It is not so.

Most of her kills were self defense or otherwise forced on her, it's true, and all of them have a (sometimes specious) reasoning behind them. We also understand why she became the way she is now.

What is argued is that killing has become her default solution, look at HE's quotes, she thinks of killing first and when it's not practical she switches to other solutions. The outburst of sadness when talking with Edric is quickly gone and not reflected in her actions or thoughts before or afterwards. It's not about the victims, who mostly deserved it, it's about her stance toward killing. Killing first and asking questions later for anyone who inconveniences you, even friends, is a slippery slope, and I am afraid Dareon is only a prelude for more murders disguised as vigilante justice. The evolution of the character makes me really doubt Dareon was truly killed entirely because of a sense of duty toward northern laws.

As an aside, I love Arya's character evolution and I hope Martin won't make her do a moral backflip but stay consistent and let her slide on that slope.

[Gaston de Foix]

It was a cat, she "warged" in a Braavosi cat. Nymeria is totally out of the equation, considering Arya dreamt about her and her pack chasing deer and man the night just before, unless you argue that not only the direwolf can swim across the narrow sea without drowning, but that it can do it in 12 hours, when ships do it in at least several days, if not a month.

I like the theory that she warged into a Bravoosi cat, but I don't think it works.

"That night she dreamed she was a wolf again, but it was different from the other dreams. In this dream she had no pack. She prowled alone, bounding over rooftops and padding silently beside the banks of a canal, stalking shadows through the fog".