The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

[Jon Targaryen]

The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

I tried reading through the R+L=J stickied threads, both the two up there and the one archived in the back of the forum recently. I quickly gave up. The problem as I see it is that it is not a systematic and comprehensive discussion of even R+L=J, much less the broader picture of Jon's Parentage. It flits from minor sub-topic to minor sub-topic and even off-topic from time to time. Perhaps some people prefer that "thread" aspect. I do not.

So I decided to create a thread to have a thorough and comprehensive (through AFFC) discussion of Jon's Parentage. I will post quotes below from AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC, and the SSM. We will discuss something like 8 or 9 quotes a week and comment on them. Once that is done, we will review Maester Luwin's FAQ on J'sP and Ran and Linda's FAQ on J'sP. Then we each write a summary of our conclusions.

This is not an R+L=J thread. This is a Jon's Parentage thread. All theories will be under examination. Since this is a re-read of the text, of necessity only some theories will be discussed during the re-read. But all will be open during the summary session.

The quotes I have are listed below. Shewoman has a similar, perhaps more extensive, list of quotes that she has tried to e-mail me but we haven't been able to connect. If anyone else has some more quotes to add, please add them in the thread and I will edit this post. From my schedule, it looks as if we could do AGOT in six weeks, ACOK, ASOS/AFFC, the SSM, and the FAQs in a week each. Then one to two weeks for the summaries and debates.

Anyone is welcome, especially those that do not support R+L=J. I would like to see some good discussion and debate here, but no flames.

Anyway, enough preamble, here are the quotes.

All page numbers from AGOT, ACOK, ASOS from the US Trade Paperback edition. The page number for the AFFC quote is from the US Mass Market Paperback edition.

Week 1

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black ... He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13 GRRM description by Bran

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14 Ned

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25 GRRM description by Dany

"The midnight flight to Dragonstone [right before the battle of the Ruby Ford] ... She had been born at Dragonstone nine moons after their flight"

AGOT 25, Dany's thoughts about herself contributed by Shewoman

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36 Ned and GRRM description by Ned

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." AGOT 36 Robert

"In my dreams I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

AGOT 36, Robert and Ned's thoughts contributed by Shewoman

"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but ��‚��"

"I understand," Ned said softly.

AGOT 38 Ned and Robert

"Daeren (sic) Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes -aGoT, p 45. Jon and Jon's thoughts, provided by Other-in-Law

Week 2

Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers." AGOT 47 Tyrion

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him, and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.

AGOT 55 Catelyn thoughts

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name ... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned." AGOT 55 Ned

"And yet there was that one time ... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was ... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Meryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

AGOT 92 Robert and Ned

"And Rhaegar ... how many times you think he raped you sister? How many hundreds of times?" AGOT 94 Robert

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. AGOT 96 Ned thoughts

Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. AGOT 97 Ned thoughts

Week 3

"He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." AGOT 103 Tyrion thoughts

He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

AGOT 152 Jon thoughts

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. AGOT 167 Ned thoughts

"'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." AGOT 186 Ned

"And even the lie was ... not without honor." AOGT 187 Ned

Robb looked relieved. "Good." He smiled. "The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."

Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color."

AGOT 79

Week 4

"And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.

AGOT 225 Jon

It would be good to return to Winterfell. He ought never have left. His sons were waiting there.

AGOT 298 Ned thoughts

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. AGOT 299 Ned thoughts

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. AGOT 318 Ned thoughts

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." AGOT 318 Lyanna and Ned thoughts

Robert would swear undying love and forget them by evenall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. AGOT 318 Ned thoughts

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

AGOT 319 Ned thoughts

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. AGOT 320 Ned thoughts

Week 5

Tower of Joy Ned remembering

AGOT 354-355

Rhaegar ... Rhaegar won, damn him. ... He has Lyanna now, and I have her. AGOT 359 Robert

Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her? AGOT 374 Jon thoughts

Ned thought, It it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? AGOT 406 Ned thoughts

"The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." Cersei

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."

AGOT 406 Ned thoughts

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?"

AGOT 407 Cersei

Week 6

Last of all, he came to the tomb where father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. AGOT 419 Ned thoughts

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him. AGOT 420 Ned thoughts

The lies we tell for love, he thought. AGOT 422 Ned thoughts

"Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

AGOT 422 Robert and Ned

The scene where Jon attacks Ser Alliser after Ned's capture.

AGOT 471

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. AGOT 525 Ned thoughts

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles had died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

AGOT 526-527 Ned thoughts

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If he could only see the boy again, sit and talk with him

AGOT 530 Ned thoughts

(Dany saves some Lamb women from slavery and rape.)

"You are your brother's sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" She did not understand.

"No," he answered. "Rhaegar."

AGOT 558 Dany and Jorah

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

AGOT 613 Osha and Bran

"We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

...

"It was something to do about Jon, I think."

AGOT 611 Bran

Week 7

His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years, but none of the crannogmen had ever called at Winterfell.

ACOK 249 Bran thoughts

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness ��‚�� mother of dragons, bride of fire

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

Bael the Bard story

ACOK 561 Ygritte

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell ... he saw that he was dining with the dead ... But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

ACOK 608-609 Theon thoughts

Week 8

"As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her tomb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The masters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, "I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior."

ASOS 91 Barristan

"You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna."

ASOS 193 Harwin

Knight of the Laughing Tree Story, specifically Rhaegar being sent to find the Knight.

ASOS 279-283 Meera

"The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all."

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

ASOS 486 Barristan and Dany

"He[Jon Snow] is my milk brother."

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

...

"Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born."

"Why would she do that?" said Arya, startled.

...

"My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal ..."

ASOS 494-495 Edric Dayne and Arya

Scene where Jon attacks Iron Emmett in a red rage.

ASOS p.892

"There is some good to be said of my father, surely?"

"There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother ... and Rhaegar. Him most of all."

ASOS 815 Barristan and Dany

The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.

ASOS 895

"Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own."

AFFC 113 Jon

Week 9

some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times. - GRRM, November 5th, 1998

1. Will there be any further explanation of the skirmish at the "Tower of Joy", by Howland Reed or whomever?

Yes, in later volumes.

December 28th, 1998

Was Aegon the Dragon married with Rhaenys and Visenya at the same time?

Yes.

June 17th, 1999

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

And

As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

July 11th, 1999

This one is probably trivial, but when did Benjen join the Watch? Right after the war against the Targaryens, more or less?

Pretty much, yes. Probably around about the time Ned returned from the south and Catelyn and Robb and Jon took up residence.

June 14th, 2000

(1) I asked about getting more info about Jon's parentage at the Menlo Park Q&As . . . he mentioned that it wouldn't be in #4 but it would be in #5 and on . . . so, we can argue about Rhaegar and Lyanna for the next several years; [Note: This is when ADWD was book 4 and TWOW was book 5]

November 11th, 2000

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

June 6th, 2001

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

June 13th, 2001

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

January 2nd, 2002

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

February 28th, 2002

(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.

HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*

August 29th, 2002

When was the year of the false spring?

Don't have my references to hand, but it was a year or two before the start of Robert's Rebellion.

April 3rd 2003

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Week 1

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black … He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13

This to me MAY be a big hint recall how purple eye are desied thought the ASOIF as such a dark blue.. also remeber that Darkstar's eyes are mistaken for black and final recall that people see whant the think they should see however even if Jon as Purple eye (a dark purple) it does nothing much for the question of his Parentage as he could have came by them though his mother Ashsa and Ned or by R+L

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

Not much here Ned publicly calls Jon his son be never does so in his own mind

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

This could be a hint althoug everthing points to Elisa until we get another part much later omn

"

I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36

Blue rose is always in big part of Lyanna story futher her being so at peace tells us just how imporant the promise was this would point towards her being Jon mother as whant could be more imporant then her son life? further we know that news of the sack of Kingslanding as gotten to the Tower of Joy maybe they had something of Robert reaction to the munders

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." AGOT 36

Robert seems to be a man much full of rage and a lack of thought to his action reeforce the need to keep a heir out of his reach

"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but …"

"I understand," Ned said softly.

AGOT 38

This to be is MUCH more to due with Robert hating being king a much rather be out hunting Whoring and Waring

[Sarella]

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black …

Grey eyes appear to be a Stark feature. Eddard has grey eyes, Benjen's are blue-grey. Jon must have got his eyes from either Eddard or Lyanna.

He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair

Robb takes after the Tullys in colouring and also appears to have the build of the Tully men (Hoster, Brynden, Edmure). Now, I'm having trouble finding actual references, but Rhaegar was slender, was he not? Visery's certainly was, and so is Dany. Ned's build is never really described, but I don't picture him as slender for some reason. Ashara was tall, likely slender. Lyanna was likely slender too - I picture her like an older Arya. I picture Wylla as a stout woman, but again, don't know why. So the slenderness doesn't really tell us anything - Jon could have got it from either his mother or father, making any combination of parents possible.

graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast."

I wouldn't really describe Ned as graceful. The lute-playing Rhaegar, however, seems very graceful to me. Of course, Jon could have got his gracefulness from his mother, so again, any combination of parents is possible.

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

Serdog covered it completely.

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

Well he didn't die for Elia, did he? He died for "abducting" Lyanna. He fought Robert over Lyanna. Rhaegar died for Lyanna. This quote tells us that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but doesn't in itself shed any light on Jon's parentage except to make the notion of Rhaegar and Lyanna having a child seem more likely.

but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

Whatever he promised, it was something big. And Ned later reflects on the promises he's made and the price he's paid to keep them. So whatever it was it has cost him. Promising to look after her child and raise him as his own makes a lot of sense. I am yet to hear a better idea for what the promise could have been.

the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

First quote connecting roses with Lyanna. Possibly the same roses Rhaegar crowned her with at the tourney. If so, indicates that Lyanna treasured the crown, and perhaps that she loved Rhaegar. Again, no real light on Jon's parentage.

After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36

Howland knows what happened at the TOJ. GRRM has said we will never have a Howland POV because he knows too much. Whatever happened at the TOJ has major significance. Also, Howland's own children told Bran the story of the tourney where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna queen of love and beauty. They seem to know a lot about it and Howland is the most likely source.

"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but …"

"I understand," Ned said softly.AGOT 38

I interpret this as that Ned sometimes wishes Rhaegar had killed Robert, Lyanna was still alive, and whatever promises he made to Lyanna and has paid to keep therefore did not exist.

Edit: spelling and grammar

[Guest Other-in-law]

I interpret this as that Ned sometimes wishes Rhaegar had killed Robert, Lyanna was still alive, and whatever promises he made to Lyanna and has paid to keep therefore did not exist.

Hmm. I don't see that; it just sounds like Ned has sympathy for his friend's grief and the unpleasant way his life turned out. Losing the women he loved or thought he loved, and ending up in a loveless marriage to Cersei. Though it may be a slight, unintentional admission on Robert's part that he thinks Lyanna preferred Rhaegar to him.

[Shewoman]

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

It is hard to see how this could refer to Elia, since there doesn't seem to have been any controversy about her and Rhaegar's relationship that would make dying for her necessary until Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown at Harrenhal. We will later have several quotations from Dany indicating that she believes Rhaegar loved and died for Lyanna--although, of course, she knows nothing based on her own knowledge.

Sarella, I agree with your interpretation of the last quote in your post.

My list of quotations is not nearly as extensive as our founder's, but I'll post the ones I have that aren't duplicates. I think it might be helpful if we identified the POV as well as the page number. My books are all American paperbacks, but I'm sure others have different editions.

A Game of Thrones, pp. 30-31, Dany: “Rhaegar battling the Usurper . . . and dying for the woman he loved.†Told you she'd say that. Later on the same page, "Her mother, Viserys, and fetal Dany escaped from the sack of KL and she was born on Dragonstone nine months later." This may be significant in determining Jon's age at some point.

Got: pp. 43-4, Ned: Howland and at least one other person found him holding her body. Robert: “In my dreams I kill him every night.†There was nothing Ned could say to that.

I find this significant for two reasons. First, someone besides Howland knew that Ned had found Lyanna (or that a man had found the mysterious woman in the tower, depending on how much that "someone" knew). Second, on my first read of the series I was struck by Ned's inability to respond to Robert's statement of ongoing hatred towards Rhaegar. Ned is obsessed with Lyanna--I never knew anyone in such thundering need of a shrink. And yet he doesn't seem to agree with Robert; if he did, why wouldn't he say so? If he doesn't, why doesn't he? He and Lyanna were close; surely he would hate anyone he thought could be responsible for her death. It was at this point that I decided Robert wasn't reliable.

The "He is my blood" line, GoT 64-5, Catelyn, also struck me. It's a statement that could be interpreted as claiming paternity or not. Seems like he's going out of his way not to lie . . . quite.

GoT, 110-111, Ned. He and Robert have what is clearly a very uncomfortable conversation for Ned about Jon's mother: "Her name was Wylla," he says, "and I would sooner not speak of her. Ned had already told Robert this long ago. )I realize this isn't a "favorite quotes" thread, but Robert's "You were never the boy you were" is one of the most insightful things he ever says.

p. 115 has Ned thinking of how he's lived his lies for 14 years (a rather specific number). Someday we'll need to discuss this.

GoT, 266-7, Jon: Dream of finding Winterfell empty, ruined, being forced to enter the crypts; is afraid, says “I’m not a Stark!â€

GoT, 390-81, Ned: Ned thinks of promises he made to Lyanna “and the price he’d paid to keep them,†remembers Jon’s face so like a younger version of his own; also thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in years and decides he wouldn’t have gone to brothels." Something of a compliment, coming from Ned.

GoT 485-7, Ned: "If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?" Well, THAT'S an interesting list of children. "Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?"

GoT 633-5, Ned: Imprisoned, he asks Varys to deliver a letter for him. Varys makes clear that he will use the letter. "The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him.â€

GoT 668, Dany: after she saves the "sheepwomen" from the rapists, Jorah says she is Rhaegar's sister.

GoF 732-3 Bran: In the Wintercrypt, he says that Rhaegar carried off Lyanna and raped her--the only tim we hear one of Ned's children say that.

That's it for now--

[the silent speaker]

Some scattered thoughts:

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

This is what Dany thinks. But Dany also says he stole Lyanna (her word) from Robert and asked how could he do that. So she seems to have it in her head both ways: he loved her and he kidnapped her.

These two quotes side by side seem to be a strong refutation of one of the more popular R+L arguments:

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

It would at least appear on the surface that the lies haunting his dreams do not concern Rhaegar.

Shewoman:

The "He is my blood" line, GoT 64-5, Catelyn, also struck me. It's a statement that could be interpreted as claiming paternity or not. Seems like he's going out of his way not to lie . . . quite.

But if Ned "called him 'son' for all the North to see" he was presumably less careful on those occasions to not lie ... quite, so why the difference?

[Jon Targaryen]

Note: If anyone thinks we should do more quotes per week or per three days or whatever, let eveyone know on the thread.

First, I'll comment on the quotes then others comments.

Week 1

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black … He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13

This quote is mainly to establish that Jon has the grey eyes of a Stark-looking person. This could indicate one of his parents was a Stark or that he had a Stark-looking parent. It also shows that he is near the same age as Robb. This establishes the general time of his birth early. The final sentence is more of a contrasting of the traditional Stark body type with the traditional Tully body type.

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

Actually, I put this down to nothing more than sloppy editing. We know GRRM wrote this chapter the very first in a flash of inspiration. Maybe he didn't have a non-Ned=father story in mind by then. Then the editors were not aware of the theory and GRRM didn't catch it either.

We have seen this happen with the prologue and the number of winters. Gared seems to have seen only 2-3 summers in whole 50-odd year life while Tyrion, somewhere in his 20's has seen 8 or 9.

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

GRRM does not say "Elia" here leaving it open to being Lyanna. There is more on this in ASOS when Dany and Barristan talk of Rhaegar as well as ACOK in the House of the Undying.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36

The first time we see the "promise." At first glance, it appears that the promise could be to rest beside Brandon and Rickard. But the insistent re-popping up of this later will make it clear it is more than that. For now, she has rose petals but we do not see what color they originally were. There is the "they" that find Ned there. This may be sloppy editing too or there may have been more people there besides Ned's seven and the 3 kg or the timeline may be reversed.

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." AGOT 36

The first instance we hear of what Rhaegar has supposedly done to Lyanna. He supposedly raped her. We at least think there was sexual intercourse. So there could be a child from that, whatever type of intercourse it was.

"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but …"

"I understand," Ned said softly.

AGOT 38

Just put this in there to stirt the pot. Maybe we can come back to it later once the theories have coalesced.

[Anthem]

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black … He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13

Doesn't say much about his parentage, only that he has the Stark look. I read somewhere because Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna (as said by Ned), Jon could be Lyanna's son. Hmmm.

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

In front of his men, what else could Ned have said? '... what mischief my son and my...er...blood have rooted out now'? Maybe he felt worse lying outright to his own wife, so that's why he said Jon was his blood rather than his son. Or he wanted to spare Cat's feelings.

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

This only shows Rhaegar might've loved Lyanna. Doesn't mean Jon's their son.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36

Lyanna died of a fever - possibly as a result from poor hygiene after a childbirth?

[QuietColours]

In front of his men, what else could Ned have said? '... what mischief my son and my...er...blood have rooted out now'? Maybe he felt worse lying outright to his own wife, so that's why he said Jon was his blood rather than his son. Or he wanted to spare Cat's feelings.

How about "...what mischief the boys.."? There are lots of other phrases that would have fit naturally.

Lyanna died of a fever - possibly as a result from poor hygiene after a childbirth?

My initial reaction when I first read the books, before I'd heard the R+L theories, was that Lyanna--who was known to be very spirited and at at least one point in her life tried to get martial training--had interfered in the fight in some way and been wounded. That or that she had fought to leave at some point, and been wounded, and that infected wound was what the fever was from.

[Sarella]

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

Another possible explanation is that as this is the first chapter, GRRM is trying to clarify for the reader who everyone is. That the two boys who rode ahead are the sons of the man who beheaded the earless man.

I recently started listening to the audiobook with my SO, and it takes him FOREVER to remember who is who. It reminds me what it was like when I first read it. I know it is clarified that Robb and Jon are Ned's sons (and that Jon is a bastard) even more later, but it takes several mentions for it to sink in when you start reading a book like this with so many characters.

ETA: saying "...what mischief the boys..." would have left the reader unsure of who the boys were until later. As stupid as it sounds, they could think they are Ned's squires. One simple word - sons - clarifies who they are.

[BlueLion70]

Shewoman

QUOTE: The "He is my blood" line, GoT 64-5, Catelyn, also struck me. It's a statement that could be interpreted as claiming paternity or not. Seems like he's going out of his way not to lie . . . quite.

But if Ned "called him 'son' for all the North to see" he was presumably less careful on those occasions to not lie ... quite, so why the difference?

Consider though, that there is a difference between making a proclamation to your area of dominion, and lying to your wife to her face. Ned strikes me as the type of man who, even if he is living a huge public lie, would feel bad lying straight to Catelyn's face. Declaring something untrue for thousands to know certainly feels different from lying to your wife's face.

[Starkaryan]

As far as those saying that Jon's eyes being a dark grey being some sort of allusion to being a faded, dark purple, that still wouldn't mean anything. Jon could have purple eyes and not be Targaryen. After all, Ashara Dayne had purple eyes...

I have a hard time believing that Jon's parents are anybody but Rhaegar and Lyanna... there is just too much alluding to that conclusion peppered throughout the books... we could all be wrong... especially with that thing Parris said... but it is unlikely...

[Ted of House Kord]

Lyanna died of a fever - possibly as a result from poor hygiene after a childbirth?

Which might also tie into the "bed of blood" if she suffered some hemorrhaging in the birthing process.

[Jon Targaryen]

ETA: I will add Shewoman's quotes into my original post as soon as we get the different editions sorted out. It appears she has mass-market while I have trade-paperback.

ETA 2: I realized, reading over Shewoman's and my quotes, that they mainly focus on R+L=J, N+A=J, and N+W=J. If anyone has any other quotes that point to any other possible mothers or fathers, please post them and I will add them to the original post. Also, if anyone wants to do less/more quotes or wants to take less/more time, please let everyone in the thread know through a post.

Serdog,

This to me MAY be a big hint recall how purple eye are desied thought the ASOIF as such a dark blue.. also remeber that Darkstar's eyes are mistaken for black and final recall that people see whant the think they should see however even if Jon as Purple eye (a dark purple) it does nothing much for the question of his Parentage as he could have came by them though his mother Ashsa and Ned or by R+L

I do think Jon has grey eyes. But the dark feature may be a part of being Targaryen. Egg had dark purple eyes that seemed black in the wrong light. Rhaegar had indigo eyes. Still, it is weak support, if any.

Sarella,

So the slenderness doesn't really tell us anything - Jon could have got it from either his mother or father, making any combination of parents possible.

True. To go over the principal 5 candidates (but not meaning to exclude anyone), Ashara was “tallâ€, Ned was of average height, Rhaegar was taller than Viserys, and Lyanna and Wylla I cannot recall height descriptions of.

Well he didn't die for Elia, did he? He died for "abducting" Lyanna. He fought Robert over Lyanna. Rhaegar died for Lyanna. This quote tells us that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but doesn't in itself shed any light on Jon's parentage except to make the notion of Rhaegar and Lyanna having a child seem more likely.

This is a very good point I had missed. I tried to think of how Rhaegar could have said to have died for Elia. I guess he could have been trying to prevent Robert’s army from reaching KL. But I always saw it as more of a dance between the opposing armies until they met at the Ruby Ford. I think Robert’s army (the van controlled by Ned) only thought of going to KL after Rhaegar’s host was scattered. So that doesn’t work.

It does seem Lyanna is the one mentioned as the woman Rhaegar loved.

I interpret this as that Ned sometimes wishes Rhaegar had killed Robert, Lyanna was still alive, and whatever promises he made to Lyanna and has paid to keep therefore did not exist.

I agree. I don’t know if Rhaegar had to kill Robert, but the other two things, yes indeed.

Anthem,

Doesn't say much about his parentage, only that he has the Stark look. I read somewhere because Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna (as said by Ned), Jon could be Lyanna's son. Hmmm.

Yes, that is what I was trying to establish, mostly. That Jon was born from one of the five Starks around at the time, but probably either Lyanna or Ned.

Lyanna died of a fever - possibly as a result from poor hygiene after a childbirth?

There is a term for it I've read on the boards. “Puerperal†fever is what spellcheck gave me.

[Adanin]

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that, whatever Ned's relation to Jon, he raised him for nearly fifteen years. Try doing that with a child and not considering them your own. My step-father, for example, was around from around the time I was six or so...he often refers to me as his son and my sisters his daughters.

BTW, Would you mind adding in the authors of the quotes in the first post Jon? I know most of them already but it would help with context. (for me, at least)

[Dimadick]

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black … He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13

The body type references may serve more in comparing and contrasting Jon and Robb at this stage of their development. Not much useful in comparisons with other characters.

The eye color is far more distinctive. From the Wikipedia article on that particular eye color:

"Gray eyes are a variant of blue eyes and are sometimes very hard to tell apart, but are most common in Finland and the Baltic States. Usually, gray eyes are considered a darker shade of blue (like blue-green), where in fact they are lighter. Under magnification, gray eyes exhibit small amounts of yellow and brown color in the iris."

The eye color may be a trait Jon inherited from Stark ancestry. But I have been wondering how prevalent it might be in the North since I enountered it in "Game of Thrones"

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36

Which establishes:

1. Whatever promise Ned gave Lyanna, it reassured her. But what was the dying woman afraid of?

2. Ned seems to have been the only witness to the death of Lyanna.

3. Ned lost track of time from the moment he realised Lyanna was dead to the time "they" found them. Had he entered the Tower of Joy alone?

4. Howland Reed sets himself apart from the nameless "they" by stepping forward and attempting to take of care of young Lord Stark. The identity of any others stepping into the room remains obscure.

5. The dying moments of Lyanna seem to be a very vivid memory of Ned. He even remembers smells and colors fifteen years later. However his subsequent state of shock has left him with little to no memories of what happened after. Wonder what might have escaped his notice?

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Which places an unnamed wet nurse taking care of Jon before Catelyn set foot in Winterfell. Wylla or someone else?

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

"The appearance of violet eyes is thought to occur from the mixing of red and blue reflections."

Edric Dayne, nephew of Ashara, is described as having "dark blue eyes that are almost purple". Possibly also violet?

"And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Meryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

AGOT 92

Which establishes that Ned has told Robert that Wylla is the mother of Jon Snow. But Ned has neglected to tell the tale to either Jon or Catelyn or Arya.

Robert seems to be having trouble remembering his own mistresses and telling them apart.

"'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." AGOT 186

Which seems to have been Rickard Stark's favorite metaphor for the fierceness underlying the personalities of his family.

Neither the Targaryens nor the Daynes are known for their meek personalities. So I think attributing this little trait to the Starks alone might be a bit deceptive.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." AGOT 318

Which tells readers that Lyanna had figured Robert could never be satisfied with only one woman. Which seems to have stayed true for the rest of his life.

Lyanna might have been more perceptive than we previously thought and Ned a bit blind to the faults of his dearest friend. But not much information on the attitude of either Stark cub to love affairs of their own.

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

AGOT 319

Which means that the perceived resemblance of Jon to Ned, goes a bit further than we thought. But Jon and Arya being the children with the most Stark traits had been established some time before.

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. AGOT 320

Which I have always taken to mean that Ned had become disillusioned with Robert.

For Rhaegar it mostly establishes that Rhaegar did not have a reputation for it.

Ned thought, It it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? AGOT 406

The curious omission of Jon from the children Ned would kill for, seems to have been raising flags for most readers.

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?"

AGOT 407

The tale of Ashara as mother of Jon seems to have reached Cersei. But curiously not that of Wylla which her husband had heard.

Sersei has arrived to no safe conclusion on the matter. But she seems to consider Ned not above raping or whoring. How well did she know her enemy?

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If he could only see the boy again, sit and talk with him

AGOT 530

Ned seems to regret withholding something from Jon. Another good one for raising flags.

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

AGOT 613

Bran seems to have heard the official account of events. The account making Rhaegar a rapist and Robert a tragic hero. Was his source Ned or someone else?

"We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

…

"It was something to do about Jon, I think."

AGOT 611

Conversing the shade of your father. A good scene but with no new information for us.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

ACOK 530

Which could have been Lyanna, Elia or even Cersei. Problem is there was only one person that we know of being close enough to have listened. Robert Baratheon. With that door closed to us.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness … mother of dragons, bride of fire

ACOK 530

The last titles seem to apply to Daenerys Targaryen herself.

“As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her tomb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The masters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’â€

ASOS 91

Which fits with the tale of Rhaegar devoting his life to fullfiling a prophesy. Where Elia and Lyanna fit in it is another matter.

“My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal …â€

ASOS 494-495

Allyria is the surviving sister of Ashara. Her tale might be true. But we do not get information on subsequent meetings between Harrenhal and his return of the Dawn to her.

[Dimadick]

This is what Dany thinks. But Dany also says he stole Lyanna (her word) from Robert and asked how could he do that. So she seems to have it in her head both ways: he loved her and he kidnapped her.

Perhaps she has heard two varying accounts of events and connected them while hardly realising it? We have seen accounts of Rhaegar the rapist and Rhaegar the tragic lover floating about in almost every book.

[Dimadick]

Serdog,

I do think Jon has grey eyes. But the dark feature may be a part of being Targaryen. Egg had dark purple eyes that seemed black in the wrong light. Rhaegar had indigo eyes. Still, it is weak support, if any.

"Indigo is the color on the electromagnetic spectrum between about 450 and 420 nm in wavelength, placing it between blue and violet. Color scientists do not usually recognize indigo as a significant color category, and generally classify wavelengths shorter than about 450 nm as violet.

Indigo and violet are different from purple, which cannot be seen on the electromagnetic spectrum but can be achieved by mixing mostly blue and part red light."

Which might mean the eye colors of Rhaegar and Ashara were not that different.

By the way indigo has a meaning in New Age "philosophy": "The color electric indigo is used to symbolically represent the sixth chakra (called Ajna), which is said to include the third eye. This chakra is believed to be related to intuition and gnosis (spiritual knowledge)"

[Guest Other-in-law]

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

It would at least appear on the surface that the lies haunting his dreams do not concern Rhaegar.

Sansa's arc through aFfC may be relevant there, though. She's currently living a lie as well, and LF counsels her to make herself believe it so that she will never slip up and spill the truth. By the end, she becomes Alayne.

In Ned's case, he would want to disassociate Rhaegar and Jon in his own mind. Since Jon lives in the same castle with him, it's easier to wipe Rhaegar from his thoughts as much as possible.

Here's a very mildly suggestive one:

"Daeren (sic) Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes -aGoT, p 45.

Jon seems to have an affinity for a famous Targaryen warrior king. Of course any boy throughout the country could feel the same way, so it need not mean much. But it would seem odd for, say, an Umber boy to romanticise about a Southron warrior that way, imo. The North has it's own history and heroes to be proud of. Does Jon know that he was brought up from Dorne or at least somewhere in the south?

[snake]

Week 1

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black … He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13

Nothing much here other than describing how Jon is more like the Starks than Robb.

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

Again not much here other than Ned calling Jon his son, which would be the case if it were true or not.

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

This is just a tale Dany has heard from Viserys and other Rhaegar supporters. Probably not true.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." AGOT 35-36

This is the first passage that suggests that something is not quite right. What are the promises Ned made? Why was she so afraid? That I could never answer to my own satisfaction. As for the roses well, they mean little. Lyanna was fond of flowers and I doubt that was any big secret. Rhaegar might have thought a few roses would swoon her after he abducted her. Rhaegar, being the kind of guy he was, probably wanted Lyanna to be as comfortable as possible and tried to make her captivity less harrowing.

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." AGOT 36

You left out the rest of the passage which is the most important, IMHO. Where Ned thinks that he can say nothing against Robert stating that a thousand deaths were less than Rhaegar deserved. IMO, this clearly shows that Ned certainly felt that Rhaegar deserved to die for what he had done. I know others interpret this differently but I really cannot see how.

"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but …"

"I understand," Ned said softly.

AGOT 38

I think this passage has little to do with Jon''s parentage or anything associated with it. Robert is just wishing that things would have been different and Ned does too. No doubt he loves Cat and his kids but I dare say there are times when he wished that Brandon was still around and that he was with Ashara but then he thinks of his life now and realizes what he would not have gained if things had been different. So they both sometimes long for "what-if's" but again, that means little.