The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

[snake]

Week 2

Lotsof quotes to comment on here.

Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers." AGOT 47 Tyrion

Doesn't mean much, just that Jon, like Arya, looks like the Starks.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

I don't know if that quote has much to do with anything other than showing how Cat looked at infidelity although it does seem like she felt that Ned fathering a bastard while in the south was not impossible and to have that child the age of Robb.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Nothing much to this other than a reflection on other than how the Starks were different than their southern counterparts.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Rumours of what went on at the ToJ got around so they had to originate from somewhere or it could be speculation as to what happened after Ned told his tale. Still, some things got out or were purposely put out.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him, and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

It seems that at the time losing Ashara was still a sore point for Ned.

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.

AGOT 55 Catelyn thoughts

That's Cat's speculation on the matter and it could be that she's right or it could be she's wrong. Perhaps Ned was not the type of man to abandon his responsibilities? Who knows?

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name ... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned." AGOT 55 Ned

This just seems to be a little hint as to what court life is like and how it's different in the North.

"And yet there was that one time ... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was ... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Meryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

AGOT 92 Robert and Ned

Again it's pretty straight forward. Robert asks who Jon's mother is and Ned replies Wylla. So, either he's telling the truth or lying.

"And Rhaegar ... how many times you think he raped you sister? How many hundreds of times?" AGOT 94 Robert

Just Robert trying to make Ned remember what the Targaryen's did to him and why they deserve to be exterminated. Ned's lack of thought on this is quite frustrating although his reply is more interesting. "You avenged Lyanna on the Trident". Avenge is an interesting word and it implies that Rhaegar's death was some sort of justice for Lyanna, at least in Ned's mind, because he could have used 'killed' or some other word or phrase to describe what happened if he didn't feel what happened was right.

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. AGOT 96 Ned thoughts

"Lies" is the thing here. It seems there is more than one. So, adding this with a later quote it seems that whatever dark secrets Lord Stark kept in his heart had little to do with Rhaegar Targaryen since he never thought about the man.

Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. AGOT 97 Ned thoughts

The infamous promise. What the hell was it? I think I'll ask GRRM.

[Jon Targaryen]

It wasn’t made a low since after Maekar’s death Daeron’s daughter was passed because her been lack wit and not because of her been female.

Yet you are probably right there were a precedents and if Rhaegar died sonless the throne probably would rather pass to his brother then to his daughter.

Anyway after KL failed only two people remained between Robert and the Iron Throne.

GRRM told me what I said at San Diego ComicCon in '06.

[the silent speaker]

Why would Ned "sooner not speak of her [Wylla]?"

Um, because he did a dishonorable thing and doesn't like dwelling on his own shame?

[Jon of the Hudson]

Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. AGOT 97 Ned thoughts

The infamous promise. What the hell was it? I think I'll ask GRRM.

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

Crackpot theory I had while reading AGOT last night (maybe it's been suggested before?): could Lyanna have wanted Ned to euthanize her? I don't think that in itself is sufficient for the promise, but maybe it would be tied up with an L+R=J theory that she wants Ned to conceal Jon's birth. Imagine she's in bed in the ToJ, weakened from the birth, feverish even, but not necessarily dying. With Rhaegar dead, Lyanna wants to conceal Jon's heritage, but she's afraid that the truth would come out if she survives and clearly looks like a mother. So she tells Ned to overdose her on milk of the poppy, or she takes it herself and asks him not to stop or save her. Then she dies in his arms, and "they" find her (whether pre- or post-showdown with the KG -- perhaps Ned's men have to kill the loyalist knights to make sure the secret dies).

On second thought, I guess this wouldn't t really help much. I think it would make the exchange above neatly ironic: Robert refers to honor, and Ned tells a small lie in that Rhaegar didn't kill Lyanna, strictly speaking. The memory of his sister's words shows him putting his promise to her above all other concerns for truth. But there's enough going on there that Ned doesn't need one specific lie to recall his last memory of Lyanna.

[raif snow]

Just putting it out there, what if it was Ned and the Northmen defending the ToJ?...

[Shewoman]

Snake, I think your quotes above indicate that Catelyn wasn't prudish about sex, wasn't surprised or upset at the thought of her new husband having a bastard child during their enforced separation. It's the fact that he's keeping the mother's name a secret and raising the bastard himself that upsets her. My impression is that neither of these things is normal in Westeros, given that people outside the family comment on them.

I agree with you that Ned's lies may have little, if anything, to do with Rhaegar.

I think it's infamous "promises" rather than "promise." Ned thinks of them in the plural at least once: GoT 380: "He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying and the price he'd paid to keep them."

Jon of the Hudson, I have a hard time believing Lyanna wanted her brother to kill her. I don't see why she would; if she was afraid that something about her might reveal Jon's heritage, she could have asked her brother to hide her somewhere. I'm also not quite clear what you mean about her worrying that she would "look like a mother." If she somehow did and someone questioned her, she could say that her baby died. From GoT, 43-4: "The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black." The description of her sounds to me like she was almost dead when Ned promised--that she was hanging onto life in order to make sure he made the promise.

I think the only way Robert can claim that Rhaegar is responsible for Lyanna's death is because he believes Rhaegar was involved in her disappearance and failed to keep her safe or that he raped her repeatedly to the point where she could no longer live. Rhaegar certainly wasn't there when Lyanna died; he was already dead on the Trident.

Raif Snow, Ned has a dream of the Tower of Joy beginning on p. 424 of my copy of Game of Thrones. He names his companions. Then, "They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks billowing in the wind." If their backs are to the Tower, they're defending it--and the Kings Guard wears white cloaks.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name ... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned." AGOT 55 Ned

This seems like a weak excuse, after we've learned more Westerosi history. 'No place at court'? Brynden Rivers found a place at court, ruling the realm as Hand. Of course he was later dsimissed from office and cast into the dungeons, and maybe he was the last straw for tolerating bastards in decent company for most people, but it still seems like they can make a place for themselves. Didn't the Bastard of Godsgrace find a place at Stannis' (admittedly very unorthodox) court? And then the Red Viper has demonstrated that if one loves a bastard they can bring them to court and anyone who has a problem can damned well lump it!

Unless Ned is unusually sensitive about gossip or whatever, I think a more likely explanation would be that he wants to keep him well out of sight of Robert and any old hangers-on who could possibly put two and two together. Seeing some insignificant bastard up in podunk Winterfell is one thing, seeing Rhaegar's son (if he is) strutting around the Red Keep is quite another. In Winterfell, he is just another unfamiliar oddity in a strange place; like background noise. In the Red Keep he would be under a microscope, visible to all kinds of people who never made the long trip north...Varys, Pycelle, Barristan Selmy...smarter men than Robert.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

This always struck me as odd. Jon was just as vulnerable as an infant as Robb was, so was the decision to have him travel sooner based on the fact that, unlike Robb, his recuperating mother wasn't going with him? And who was this extra wetnurse...it evidently wasn't Wylla. Why not? The Daynes didn't want to lose her, but Ned was able to scrounge up some other southron wetnurse, somehow?

And it would seem strange for Ned to return north without accompanying his young bride. So did he leave Jon and the wetnurse at the Crossroads Inn and an escort to Winerfell, while he went west to Riverrun to stay with Cat until she was ready to travel?

[Shewoman]

Other-in-law, you may be right that Ned's claim a bastard can't make it in King's Landing (although I've heard that if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere) is a weak excuse. On the other hand, whatever Jon's parentage is Ned clearly loves him and probably doesn't want to abandon him any more than he does any of the other children.

IF R=L=J, Ned might be concerned about Jon being seen at King's Landing. His appearance is pure Stark, so no one would connect him with the Targaryens on sight. But if he identified himself, as he'd pretty much have to, as "Ned Stark's bastard"--well, we've seen that Robert and Cersei both have some interest in who Jon's mother is. That might be a line of thought that would do Jon no good. And the fact that Ned has raised his bastard at Winterfell--unusual--might add to the untoward interest people took in Jon. I don't think the Red Viper analogy really holds here; the Viper was in King's Landing, a renowned warrior who could protect his people and certainly had anough money to take care of any number of bastards. Jon would have no one. Whatever Ned's motives here, I think his obvious love for Jon is certainly a factor.

Ned's journey from Starfall would take him close to Riverrun. Unless Jon was born at Starfall, he obviously began his travels early. Ned might have left Starfall because, after all, he was in the battle that killed Arthur and perhaps found Starfall a tad uncomfortable because of that--in addition to whatever was going on with Ashara. He was also the head of the Stark family and, while I'm sure he trusted Benjen, he himself belonged at Winterfell.

The issue of Wetnurse Wylla has already come up on this thread. Wylla seems to be in on whatever secrets are connected to Jon's birth. Ned told Robert she was Jon's mother and I don't think he would have done that unless he knew that she would back him up--as, indeed, she seems to be doing, according to Edric Dayne's conversation with Arya in Storm of Swords about Wylla being Jon's mother and wetnurse to both of them. Since Ned obviously does not want to tell Catelyn (or anyone else besides Robert, and that was probably unavoidable) anything about Jon's mother, bringing someone who either is Jon's mother or who claims to be home to meet Catelyn would a) be a tad rude and pretty much blow the secret Ned's trying so hard to keep.

I doubt that it would be hard to find a wetnurse. Any woman who is nursing a baby can continue to nurse as long as her milk lasts or she gets sick or pregnant.

Since Jon and his wetnurse were ensconced at Winterfell before Catelyn got there, I think Ned was already there too--they would need help finding it and no one at Winterfell would have any idea who they were if they showed up unescorted. On p. 65 of my copy of GoT (Catelyn's PoV), the narrative says, "When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence." "Catelyn," not "Catelyn and Ned," (although Robb isn't mentioned either). And if he wasn't with them and wasn't at Riverrun with Catelyn, where was he? But you do raise an interesting point about Ned not escorting his wife; I'd never thought about that. Cat is upset enough about Jon's having a place at Winterfell that you'd think she'd be upset if Ned bypassed her and Robb at Riverrun in order to get his bastard to Winterfell as soon as possible, but she never thinks about that.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I don't think the Red Viper analogy really holds here; the Viper was in King's Landing, a renowned warrior who could protect his people and certainly had anough money to take care of any number of bastards. Jon would have no one.

Bastard Jon would have been on his own no more than bastardess Ellaria Sand was. Ned is the one who should be compared to Oberyn, and he beats him in all the ways that count as far as I see it.

King's Hand>any other small council seat

Lord paramount of the North>younger brother of the Prince of Dorne

Best friend of the King>member of an ethnicity that the King makes lightbulb jokes about, and most hated member of the archenemies of the Queen-to-be's family.

ETA: actually Ned was hardly tops in the Queen's family's list either, but I doubt any of them saw him as an archenemy. Jaime seems to have been the one with the strongest dislike for him. Presumably Oberyn would not be quite so naive as Ned, but he was more reckless. They both met their dooms in the capital, so at worst it's a draw. And for the bastards, the Queen of Thorns said something mean to Ellaria. Would Jon not be able to survive as much?

[Shewoman]

You're right that Ned would be in KL too--although he didn't turn out to be able to protect his kids very much.

I doubt that Cersei was too crazy about any Starks, given that Robert was calling out Lyanna's name on their wedding night.

[snake]

Shewoman,

Snake, I think your quotes above indicate that Catelyn wasn't prudish about sex, wasn't surprised or upset at the thought of her new husband having a bastard child during their enforced separation. It's the fact that he's keeping the mother's name a secret and raising the bastard himself that upsets her. My impression is that neither of these things is normal in Westeros, given that people outside the family comment on them.

I was just wondering if Cat was typical of a Westerosi woman with her attitude and I always found it interesting how her take on things was so different than Cersei's.

I agree with you that Ned's lies may have little, if anything, to do with Rhaegar.

I think it's infamous "promises" rather than "promise." Ned thinks of them in the plural at least once: GoT 380: "He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying and the price he'd paid to keep them."

You are right of course. It would seem to be more than one promise. I think we can all agree that one of those was to have her buried at Winterfell, although that certainly was no big deal to Ned. Strange how she would want to be entombed there if she was so smitten with Rhaegar that she had turned her back on her family.

OiL,

Prince Oberyn took Elia with him, and Daemon Sand his squire as well, but he was only there a short while. We do not know how they were received by others at court and it could well be that they were shunned, but Oberyn being the half-mad man that he was probably didn't care. The seating arrangements at the wedding proved that Elia was not going to be accepted that well and she probably didn't care but that doesn't mean Jon would have faired as well. Then you take Lord Walder who keeps all his sons and daughters around him. The way he treated his bastard son who chided him for his behavior to Cat shows the kind of abuse a bastard can receive. Jon never felt a part of the Stark family at Winterfell where he was protected, for the most part, by Ned's authority. He most certainly would have had a harder time at court where Ned would have been too busy to interfere. I mean, other than Oberyn's retinue(who only showed up for a short while), how many bastards resided at court during Robert's reign? I don't have my books by I cannot recall any.

[sholtzma]

This is not really related to the re-read, but in general...I wonder why Catelyn never looked at Jon and thought about the fact that Lyanna died, Rhaegar may have been involved somehow with her, and that Ned would be the type to take any child that may have been Lyanna's and raise him/her as his own. This never crossed Catelyn's mind at all in her POV's. If you were a highborn lady with a lot of time on your hands, and a bastard appeared from a man with more honor than sense, and his sister had just died after being kidnapped by a dragon prince, wouldn't you speculate at least? Nobody from the reader's viewpoint ever thinks about Jon as anything other than Ned's bastard son.

And another thing....I think it exceedingly strange that in all the time Ned and Cat were married, he never told her about Jon (this is assuming Jon is not his bastard son). He may have promised Lyanna many things, but the years grinding away and seeing Catelyn obviously uncomfortable/nasty about Jon was not even enough to get Ned to confide in her. It seems to me that if this were Lyanna's child, after a number of years Ned would just tell Catelyn, "look, there's something I need to tell you, promise me you won't tell anybody...." I only say that because after reading Cat's POV's and thinking about her character, it seems like she would be one to keep this a secret to the grave (no pun intended).

Another way to look at this, of course, is that Ned is a lot like Sansa (or vice versa). He plays the role and doesn't allow for divulging any information, in the fear that he might goof or tell the wrong person.

[Shewoman]

Snake, I think of Catelyn as more practical than Cersei. For Westeros' sake, I hope Catelyn is a more typical Westerosi woman than Cersei is. Cersei apparently started hating Robert because he called out Lyanna's name on their wedding night. That wouldn't be a great start to a marriage for any woman--but I can see Catelyn realizing that Robert had been in love with Lyanna and barely knew her and not getting too upset about it--as long as it didn't happen again. I think Cersei saw it as a slight against her.

I don't know that Lyanna thought she was turning her back on her family. It seems more like she was turning her back on Robert. I wouldn't be surprised if she did want to be buried at Winterfell; people often want to be buried in a "family plot" and where else would she be planted?

Sholtzma, I never thought of Catelyn as having a lot of time on her hands. She was obviously overseeing Arya's and Sansa's training and had two younger children as well. Certainly they had caretakers, but I got the feeling that she was very much involved in the domestic arrangements at Winterfell. Wasn't she the one who decided that Jon wouldn't sit with the family at the feast welcoming Robert and his entourage? (I'm not positive about that, but I think so. Anybody know for sure?

I think Catelyn looked at and thought about Jon as little as possible. I doubt that Ned ever told her he found Lyanna, so I don't know that she would think to connect Jon and Lyanna. Ned says Jon's his son, so that explains why he looks like a Stark.

I think it's clear that Ned feels that he can't or shouldn't talk about Jon's mother. He shuts Robert down within minutes of Robert asking about Wylla and scares Catelyn for the only time in their marriage when she asks about Jon's mother (she suggests it's Ashara). Catelyn never asks again after his outburst. It is a basic idea in the R+L=J theory that he keeps the secret because that was one of the promises he made to Lyanna. That makes sense--he certainly thinks about those promises a lot--but of course the identity of Jon's mother is still up in the air.

I would like Ned better if he had gone against his promise--especially if it was to a dead woman who couldn't be hurt by any fallout from his reneging--in order to ease the lives of his living wife and son or nephew. I think Jon had a right to know who his mother was, and Ned withheld that. When he's arrested and in jail, Ned thinks of Jon with "a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words." I wonder if he's regretting his secrecy. But, of course, if he'd been the kind of man to break his word, he'd also be the kind of man who'd never tell Cersei he was going to tell Robert that her brother had fathered the children Robert thought were his.

Ned is like Sansa? He told her to keep his plans a secret and she told them anyway.

[Zoë Sumra]

Ned is like Sansa? He told her to keep his plans a secret and she told them anyway.

If Ned pretended even to himself that Jon was his bastard when actually he was Lyanna's, he'd be like Sansa is becoming at the end of AFFC, when she pretends even to herself that she really is Alayne.

Littlefinger explicitly tells her that she has to do this in order to make sure she doesn't slip up - however, even before this, Sansa showed signs of having this "ability" by rewriting events inside her own head to suit herself - notably glossing over a lot of Joffrey's worse traits early in AGOT and sincerely believing that Sandor kissed her on the night of the Blackwater when in fact he didn't. The fact that she's a natural at it adds a little more weight to the theory that Ned could have been doing the same thing, as there are other ways in which, while Sansa resembles Cat physically, she resembles Ned emotionally. (Arya is the reverse.)

[A wilding]

I never thought of Catelyn as having a lot of time on her hands. She was obviously overseeing Arya's and Sansa's training and had two younger children as well. Certainly they had caretakers, but I got the feeling that she was very much involved in the domestic arrangements at Winterfell. Wasn't she the one who decided that Jon wouldn't sit with the family at the feast welcoming Robert and his entourage? (I'm not positive about that, but I think so. Anybody know for sure?

Jon assumes that it was Catelyn who made this decision, but that is only his assumption. I am sure that it was at least passed by Ned for example. But I agree with your general point, that Catelyn probably did much of the household management at Winterfell. She was clearly a practical woman, not the type to just sit around titivating herself.

[Dimadick]

I mean, other than Oberyn's retinue(who only showed up for a short while), how many bastards resided at court during Robert's reign? I don't have my books by I cannot recall any.

None for long as far as we know. Some of the bastard Freys turned up as contestants in the Games but seem to have left the court soon after. Ned attributed the absence of bastards to Cersei having no tolerance for them.

When Tyrion realises that Oberyn Martell brought with him Ellaria Sand as his consort, there are some thoughts indicating Ned was not too far from the truth. He thinks that Cersei and "his bastard mistress" Ellaria together are sure to cause a big fight. Placing Ellaria anywhere near the noble women attending would be an insult to any of them.

In Feast of Crows the standards of Cersei towards illegitimates seem to have fallen. She has no problem promoting them at court.

[Shewoman]

It's good to see you, Wildling--especially since you're using words like "titivating."

[Guest Other-in-law]

None for long as far as we know. Some of the bastard Freys turned up as contestants in the Games but seem to have left the court soon after. Ned attributed the absence of bastards to Cersei having no tolerance for them.

Do you happen to recall which chapter that quote was in? When Ned had his talk with Cat about Jon's fate, he probably didn't know Cersei very well, especially not her extreme policy toward Robert's bastards.

In Feast of Crows the standards of Cersei towards illegitimates seem to have fallen. She has no problem promoting them at court.

That's a good point. We hear criticism of Aurane Waters based on his inexperience for the high office he obtained, but his bastardy doesn't seem to have been an issue. Maybe his killer Valyrian looks cancelled out his taint of bastardy for Cersei.

I still think Ned was making excuses for not bringing Jon to court. Jon would have to learn to deal with his stigma one way or the other eventually.

[Shewoman]

GoT, pp. 485-7, Ned: Ned wonders what he would do if a strange child’s life threatened Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon--and what Catelyn would do, “if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body?†That list doesn't sound to me like Ned is considering Jon as one of his children.

[MattTaz]

Just in regards to Jon and Robb's age. They must be very close in age as described in the books. Ned and Catelyn conceived Robb on their wedding night. He came home from war about a year later. Just in regards to babies from the age 9 to 15 months - they grow fast - and this period includes, crawling, talking and walking. If Ned came home to Winterfell with an older baby even Catelyn would have noticed Jon was walking, baby-talking and was bigger than Robb. Same with being months younger than Robb. So if Ned is Jon's dad he was conceived very close to Catelyn's wedding night.