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The Jon's Parentage Re-Read


Jon Targaryen

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Facts

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black ... He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." - AGOT 13

Jon is a Stark, he has Stark blood in him.

This narrows down one of the parents to:

  • Rickard
  • Brandon
  • Ned
  • Lyanna
  • Benjen

There was a lot of debate about the whereabouts of Ned and Lyanna, but not much for the others. Brandon or Rickard could have had an occasion just before he learned of Lyanna's abduction. For Benjen, it would not make much sense to pretend Jon is not his son.

For the rest, even if dark gray eyes could be similar to dark purple eyes, they are not described as such. Dark eyes are too general a characteristic for it to mean anything, in context, since even a commoner or a Dayne can have dark eyes. So no real physical hint pointing at the identity of his non-stark parent.

Unreliable claims

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14

Meaningless, since Ned would have to play the part, no matter whose child Jon is.

Tangential facts

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." AGOT 25

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." AGOT 36

Unreliable claim, since Vyserys woould not tell her that Rhaegar was a monster, and Robert is clearly biased. Hints that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but not that the reverse was true. Introduces the event smoothly. Will be repeated a lot, as everyone thinks that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, since he kidnapped her. From an external point of view what other motives could he have, after all?

"She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."

Lyanna was informed of what had been going on, and was loyal to the Starks.

Promise me, she had cried, [...] but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

Lyanna was desperate about something that would exist after her. At first it seems it is about her being buried in Winterfell, but it could be something else, mainly a person, information or a secret. Not much more to extract from that, possibilities are almost limitless. Among them:

Protect Rhaegar!

Protect Aegon!

Protect my child!

Don't let Robert rule!

Don't ruin my reputation!

Bury me with father!

Raise your son in Winterfell!

in a room that smelled of blood and roses. [...] The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper,

Lyanna has been bleeding and that is probably the reason she has a fever. Nothing conclusive, but blood can come from childbearth (the direwolf discover scene reads the same), illness (comsumption) as well as violence (like the way robert died). She could simply have commited suicide.

in a room that smelled of blood and roses. [...] the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. [...]"I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."

Reinforces the thematic link between Lyanna and roses, that will be used later to represent all the Stark maidens when Mance talks about Bael's son. Is only useful for R+L, in combo with Dany's bride of fire third vision.

"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but ..."

"I understand," Ned said softly. AGOT 38

Not really relevant, in my opinion, in context it obviously means that Robert wanted Lyanna, not a kingdom, it doesn't bear one way or another on who could be Jon's parents.

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I guess what I'm wondering is, why would the three kingsguards, including Arthur Dayne, at the Tower of Joy, be willing to fight and die vs seven tough opponents, unless they felt they were protecting the true king ( jon) from being taken away, at the time.

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General,

Yes, Ned would say “sons†referring to Robb and Jon whether Jon was his son or not. But with Catelyn he said Jon was, “my blood.†That is why I think it is just an editing mistake. This was the first chapter in ASOIAF GRRM wrote. The editing process slipped through. Sarella has a good point on this topic though.

Snake,

You left out the rest of the passage which is the most important, IMHO. Where Ned thinks that he can say nothing against Robert stating that a thousand deaths were less than Rhaegar deserved. IMO, this clearly shows that Ned certainly felt that Rhaegar deserved to die for what he had done. I know others interpret this differently but I really cannot see how.

Good point. However, a different interpretation is that Ned sees Robert’s rage is on him and he can’t say anything that will sway him from it at this time.

I think this passage has little to do with Jon''s parentage or anything associated with it. Robert is just wishing that things would have been different and Ned does too. No doubt he loves Cat and his kids but I dare say there are times when he wished that Brandon was still around and that he was with Ashara but then he thinks of his life now and realizes what he would not have gained if things had been different. So they both sometimes long for "what-if's" but again, that means little.

Yes, he does probably wish for those things. However, Brandon was dead before they won at the Trident. But anyway, Ned could wish for other things as well. That Rhaegar had lived to raise Jon. That Lyanna had not died, perhaps partly of a broken heart. They could include R+L=J aspects. Also, Ned would not have to lie about being an adulterer.

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Maybe he felt worse lying outright to his own wife, so that's why he said Jon was his blood rather than his son. Or he wanted to spare Cat's feelings.

I have trouble reconciling this notion with the fact that this was the one time in fifteen year that he really, truly terrified her.

Ned thought, It it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? AGOT 406

If N+?=J, a possible explanation for this from a literary standpoint is that Jon was about to be mentioned in the second half of the thought (distnct from the others) and so was omitted from the first half.

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"There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly but..."

"I understand," Ned said softly.

AGOT 38 Ned and Robert

Here's how I see this quote:

Robert's interpretation is pretty obvious. He hates being king. He's not sorry that he won the war, but he's sorry that he had to shoulder the responsibilities that came with winning. There are times when he would do anything to be free of those responsibilities, even if it meant that he lost the war and Rhaegar ended up as king.

Ned's "I understand" suggests that not only does he know what Robert means, but that he too has had to shoulder responsibilities that he would rather not have as a result of that victory. I see three possible interpretations of this:

1. Being forced to marry Cat rather than Ashara. But from what we see in Ned's thoughts, he seems to love Cat, and he never even thinks of Ashara. He doesn't constantly mourn her loss, the way Robert does with Lyanna or Tyrion does with Tysha. If Ned was ever in love with Ashara, he seems to have moved on with few regrets. At any rate, he was married to Cat before the Trident.

2. Being forced to become Lord of Winterfell. We get a couple hints of this with his "Brandon would know what to do" speech, but overall, Ned seems happy with his position at Winterfell. And again, he was already Lord by the time of the Trident.

3. Being forced to raise Jon. Assuming R+L = J, this came about more or less as a direct result of the victory on the Trident. Seems to me the most likely interpretation.

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On my screen, at least, some of Jon Targaryen's posts have numbers and squares instead of letters.

"Come, let us see what mischief my sons (referring to Robb and Jon) have rooted out now." AGOT 14 Ned

I don't think this quote or Ned's "my blood" are sloppy editing. Ned HAS claimed Jon as his son for 14 years. By now everyone must have heard Ned refer to Jon as his son. Certainly Jon thinks Ned is his father. If Ned didn't make such claims, there'd be no basis for Jon's presence at Winterfell. As for "my blood," that is apparently the truth, given Jon's Stark appearance, and sets up Ned's unhappiness with lying.

Ned seems eager to end the conversation with Robert about Wylla and more upset than that in the discussion he and Catelyn have about Ashara, but the quote at the top of my post doesn't seem to cause him any discomfort. I think this is because, while he dislikes lying in general, lying to his old friend and, even more, his wife, is not something Ned is comfortable with.

The Silent Speak: I'm not sure that Ned's bad dreams have anything to do with the living Rhaegar. Rhaegar doesn't appear in any of Ned's memories aside from those about Harrenhal, as I recall. I think his 14 years of lies have to do with Jon's parentage--which may involve Rhaegar, but Ned by this time loves Jon (who looks like a Stark) as a son and so probably doesn't flash on possible parental candidates every time he looks at him.

"But if Ned "called him 'son' for all the North to see" he was presumably less careful on those occasions to not lie ... quite, so why the difference?"

The difference is that he loves Catelyn, who has more reason to ask about Jon's maternity than "all the North" does, and lying to her face isn't easy for him.

Jon Targaryen, our fearless leader: "There is the "they" that find Ned there. This may be sloppy editing too or there may have been more people there besides Ned's seven and the 3 kg or the timeline may be reversed." I think there was someone else there. Surely Rhaegar would have provided for a wet nurse, at least, in case Lyanna was unable to nurse her child.

Dimadick--Great list of questions!

"1. Whatever promise Ned gave Lyanna, it reassured her. But what was the dying woman afraid of?

Her baby's fate?

2. Ned seems to have been the only witness to the death of Lyanna.

Yep.

3. Ned lost track of time from the moment he realised Lyanna was dead to the time "they" found them. Had he entered the Tower of Joy alone?

If not, I think Howland was with him.

4. Howland Reed sets himself apart from the nameless "they" by stepping forward and attempting to take of care of young Lord Stark. The identity of any others stepping into the room remains obscure.

True.

5. The dying moments of Lyanna seem to be a very vivid memory of Ned. He even remembers smells and colors fifteen years later. However his subsequent state of shock has left him with little to no memories of what happened after. Wonder what might have escaped his notice?"

Good question. I think he was emotionally and physically overwrought by the fight with the King's Guard, agreeing to Lyanna's promises when obviously he found it difficult to do so, and seeing her die. Not to mention his concerns about Jaime and the Iron Throne and his falling out with Robert over what happened to Elia and Rhaegar's children in King's Landing--which is why he left. It's no wonder he wasn't paying attention. What could have happened that he missed?

I think the wet nurse ensconced at Winterfell when Cat got there was not Wylla. I think Wylla might be the person other than Howland who found Ned holding dead Lyanna's hand. We know that she is allowing it to be thought that she is Jon's mother (Arya's conversation with Edric Dayne in Storm of Swords). If Wylla were at the Tower of Joy, I don't think Ned would allow her anywhere near Catelyn.

Snake: I think a new mother dying during the collapse of a long dynasty and the establishment of a new one might well be afraid for the well-being of her infant, whether or not it had any connection to either dynasty--especially if her brother was unwilling to promise her what she asked.

Robert says "In my dreams I kill him every night. A thousand deaths will be less than he deserved." "There was nothing Ned could say to that" makes sense only if Ned doesn't share Robert's assessment of Rhaegar and what he deserves. If that's the case, he can't agree with his friend ("Yes! Two thousand deaths would be too few!"), but on the other hand if he says, "Robbo, you're wrong; I think of Rhaegar as a good guy," that may open a can of worms that Ned doesn't want opened--and Robert is king now. We learn later that he's capable of sending assassins after young Dany; if he thought there was a chance that Rhaegar had left an heir, particularly a male one, I doubt that he'd be more controlled in his response.

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has it ever been tossed around that Lyanna gave birth to "Jon", Rhaegar then "stole" the baby and gave him to his knights to protect at the Tower of Joy? Ned and company arrive with Lyanna to get him back, she is injured in the battle dies of wounds...

just a different twist i got to thinking of when someone quoted that Lyanna liked to play with swords

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Rhaegar died before Lyanna did, although he may have ordered his Kings Guard to protect her child before he left to fight at the Trident.

Ned and company did not include Lyanna; they came from King's Landing. She was apparently in the Tower of Joy while Ned fought the KG; at least his memories of the battle do not include her presence (although in a dream he hears her call his name). After the battle, Ned enters the ToJ, finds her, and is holding her hand as she dies.

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I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." AGOT 36 Robert

I wonder where Robert got the information that Rhaegar raped Lyanna? Does Robert just assume it?

"Daeren (sic) Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes -aGoT, p 45.

A subtle connection between Jon and Targaryens. Also, when Jon says farewell to Robb at Winterfell, Robb says "the next time I see you you'll be wearing all black" and Jon says "black was always my colour". Obviously referring to the black of the NW, but I think it is also a reference to the Targ colours placed there by GRRM.

ETA: Relating this to the topic, the Targ references obviously point to Rhaegar as Jon's father.

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1. Being forced to marry Cat rather than Ashara. But from what we see in Ned's thoughts, he seems to love Cat, and he never even thinks of Ashara. He doesn't constantly mourn her loss, the way Robert does with Lyanna or Tyrion does with Tysha. If Ned was ever in love with Ashara, he seems to have moved on with few regrets. At any rate, he was married to Cat before the Trident.

2. Being forced to become Lord of Winterfell. We get a couple hints of this with his "Brandon would know what to do" speech, but overall, Ned seems happy with his position at Winterfell. And again, he was already Lord by the time of the Trident.

3. Being forced to raise Jon. Assuming R+L = J, this came about more or less as a direct result of the victory on the Trident. Seems to me the most likely interpretation.

There is also sorrow over the death of his father, brother and sister.

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I think if Lyanna had fought against the Kings Guard, it would come up in Ned's memories. I doubt that he would forget to count her when he enumerates those who fought on each side.

Errant Bard said, "This narrows down one of the parents to: Rickard, Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, Benjen." How does the QUOTE function work around here, anyway?

Whoever Jon's parents are, Ned's keeping the mother a secret even from Jon indicates that there's a strong reason in Ned's mind not to reveal her identity. If Ned is not Jon's father but is claiming to be, then he must think there's some reason not to identify the real father either (assuming that he knows who it is).

Rickard and Brandon are dead and were single when they died, although Brandon was about to be married. I don't think Ned would think it more important to protect their reputations, since they can't be hurt now, when he is quite aware of how his silence hurts the living Catelyn and Jon, both of whom he loves.

Benjen was acting as the Stark in Winterfell during the war; he didn't go to the Wall until after Ned and Catelyn came home. He was unmarried. Jon was conceived during the war; it's certainly possible that Benjen didn't stay at Winterfell every minute, although since Ned seems to have found Jon in the South, Benjen's fathering Jon would require a fairly long journey on the part of Benjen or his lover. If Benjen did father Jon, I don't see why Ned would be so concerned about protecting his reputation, either. Members of the Night Watch are supposed to forego wives and children--but many of them had both before they joined; certainly lack of family at all is not a qualification for the Watch. When Benjen gives Jon advice at the Winterfell feast honoring Robert and his entourage, Jon responds with "I'm not your son!," to which Benjen replies, "More the pity" (GoT, pp. 54-5: Jon). This doesn't necessarily disqualify Benjen as Jon's father--the middle of a feast would hardly be the place for that discussion--but it may suggest that Benjen knows who Jon's father is.

If Ned is Jon's biological father, it seems a little odd that in his thinking about the Lannister incest he never muses, "Well, there was that one time . . . ." (although of course Martin isn't going to give up his secrets easily; he's already told us we'll never have a Howland POV).

I do think that the promises Lyanna demanded and received from Ned had something to do with Jon. Ned certainly remembers that scene an awful lot and mutters internally about his lies and what he's had to do to keep those promises. Errant Bard suggests these as possible promises:

Protect Rhaegar!

Protect Aegon!

Protect my child!

Don't let Robert rule!

Don't ruin my reputation!

Bury me with father!

Raise your son in Winterfell!

Protect Rhaegar! Rhaegar is dead by the time Ned gets to Lyanna. She may not know that, but my sense is that the Tower of Joy is almost completely empty, which sounds to me like most of those Rhaegar left to take care of Lyanna fled for some reason--and word of his death might have been it.

Protect Aegon! Would Lyanna be more concerned with Aegon's wellbeing--a child she probably never saw--than with that of the child she just gave birth to? As far as I can recall, Ned never thinks of a promise he was unable to fulfill, although this one would have been (Ned left King's Landing after arguing with Robert about Tywin's murder of Aegon and Rhaenys).

Don't let Robert rule! Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert, but was she so concerned with politics that her dying plea would be to keep him off the throne? What would her reason for that be--aside from the fear that King Robert might kill any possible Targaryen heirs who survived? Would she have thought that, at this time, it was possible for Ned to keep Robert from ruling? If this was what she asked, Ned certainly took no action on the matter--and, again, he thinks about what keeping the promises has cost him, not (I think) about failing to keep any.

Don't ruin my reputation! I think Lyanna's reputation was pretty well shot at Harrenhal. She seems to have known she was dying; if she was more concerned with what people would think of her after she was dead than with her son's welfare, good riddance to her.

Bury me with Father! We know that she and Brandon were buried at Winterfell. Lyanna might have asked for such burial--but since Ned did bury her there, if she did ask him to do that clearly this isn't one of the promises he agonizes over and thinks of his 14 years of lies and so forth.

Raise your son in Winterfell! In this scenario, is Lyanna referring to Jon as Ned's son? Since Winterfell is a bit off the beaten track, if Lyanna was concerned about the child's safety, asking for him to be raised at Winterfell was a good idea--but, again, Ned actually does this, so if this was one of the promises it's not one he agonizes over.

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Shewoman,

When you make a post, there is a little bubble with some lines in it above the text space. Highlight what you want to quote then press that bubble. Hope that helps.

Responding to the quotes Shewoman provide for Week 1

Week 1

"The midnight flight to Dragonstone [right before the battle of the Ruby Ford] ... She had been born at Dragonstone nine moons after their flight"

AGOT 25, Dany's thoughts about herself contributed by Shewoman

This quote, coupled with an SSM, will allow us to determine when Jon was born and therefore when he was conceived. This will narrow down Jon's father if Lyanna is the mother.

"In my dreams I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

AGOT 36, Robert and Ned's thoughts contributed by Shewoman

I think Ned means he could say nothing to that because he realizes Robert's rage is upon him and there is nothing he can say to it. I do not think he agrees that Rhaegar deserves more than a thousand deaths.

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How does the QUOTE function work around here, anyway?
like that:
[quote]texttoquote[/quote] 


eventualy you can try to be fanciful and add parameters like this: 

[quote name='Shewoman' date='Jan 11 2008, 18.58' post='1185643']textoquote[/quote]

I do think that the promises Lyanna demanded and received from Ned had something to do with Jon.
I proposed alternate solutions without thinking too much about it. It could as well have been "Kill all the surviving Targaryens". My point was that it's not conclusive, and one can imagine hundreds of scenarii from that one quote.

When you come already thinking it has something to do with Jon, I feel that participating in this re-read is meaningless for you, you are already convinced and only look for that single interpretation. Such analysis would fit better in a R+L=J thread, not here.

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Ok, I have uploaded Shewoman's quotes into the original thread. I am just waiting for SFDanny to post and for us to respond to him, then we can move onto next week. Since no one responded to my asking anyone for ideas about how much to do and how fast to go, I guess we will keep the same amount of quotes per "week." When the thread has not been responded to in 1 day or there has not been more than 10 posts in two days, we will just move onto the next "week." So some "weeks" should take longer than others based on how many times we post.

Hope that works for everyone.

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Errant Bard, like most of us I've been posting on the ASOIAF boards for a long time. Under those circumstances, it's not likely that many of us have no opinions, especially when it comes to this issue. That doesn't mean that my mind is fully made up or that I can't change my mind about things that, at this point, seem to me to be correct.

Ned thinks about Lyanna's death and the promises she demanded an awful lot. I think it's likely that they're important in some way. He also has some guilt about Jon; he wants Jon to be able to stay in Winterfell, although Catelyn adamantly refuses; he thinks of him when he thinks of Robert and his bastards, and when he's injured and arrested he apparently wants to write Jon (he asks Varys to deliver a letter, but doesn't say to whom, and then “The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with himâ€). I think it's possible that there's a link between his shame about Jon and his obsession with Lyanna. I could be wrong.

I have seen it suggested that Lyanna's pleas to Ned deal with a child of Ashara's. If she is, in fact, asking for help for a child, it doesn't have to be a child of her own. As a wet nurse, Wylla--who is, at least in the series present, connected to the Daynes--has to have been pregnant at least once as well. There are still lots of possibilities.

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Good point, Silent Speak

Errant Bard--

I really don't want you to feel like I'm not taking the discussion seriously or am unable to see flaws and/or advantages to various options.

I do find R+L to be a credible solution to the parentage problem, given that we still have several books and certainly more information (and red herrings) to go. But the fact that the majority of the clues come from Ned's POV in GoT--certainly a limited source--is a matter of some concern. There are also things like the presence of the KG at the Tower of Joy when we have no reason to think that, IF R+L=baby, the child was legitimate, that require explaining--especially since Rhaegar's wife and legitimate children were apparently unprotected in KL. Those who argue that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar also have to explain why she didn't leave a message informing her family or why, if she did, it doesn't seem to have been delivered. However, there are enough things pointing to something significant where Rhaegar and Lyanna are concerned that, if they are not Jon's parents, I think we'll find that the clues to their parenthood may have beencarefully laid to keep us from noticing someone else. In that case, Ashara Dayne may be involved--although it's just as likely to be someone we've barely heard of.

I don't think that Ashara can be overlooked, in any case. The timeline

would need to be worked out (to see if she and Ned could have been together at the time when Jon would have had to be conceived), but we know that she and Ned apparently had at least an attraction to each other and we hear this from four unrelated people--Meera, Edric Dayne, Cersei, and Catelyn. Her suicide (or Quaithehood) is a bit suspicious, to say the least--particularly since her nephew Edric has a name so similar to Eddard's. If the family thought that Ned had anything to do with something unpleasant happening to Ashara, surely they would not have given a name so like his to the Dayne heir.

I don't take Wylla seriously as a mom candidate; I can't see why keeping her identity secret would be so important if she really is a servant to the

Daynes, especially since (according to Edric Dayne in SoS) she is either

claiming or allowing others to claim that she is Jon's mother. It's possible, though, that she has a false identity. I do think she was very involved in whatever happened at the Tower of Joy and probably will be important at some point. Martin's said we won't get a Howland Reed PoV, but maybe we'll hear from her sometime.

But, of course, it will turn out that Jon's parents are Old Nan and the Late

Lord Frey--or, possibly, Zaphod Beeblebrox and Laura Bush in one of those so-common trans-universal accidents involving a contraceptive and a time machine.

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Shewoman: Rereading my post, that was kinda assholish. Sorry. I was a bit jarred by the way each quote was already placed in the context of one theory or another, with little regard to what it really said, literally.

I intend to finish a compilation of all the possible matches for jon, with pro and con, and various interpretations for the same quotes, and Zaphod Beeblebrox might very well be there, since that hoopy Jon is a frood who really knows where his towel is.

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