The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

[Mezeh]

Very close. The war lasted about a year and Ned needed some time to get to the North from the Valley then gather his banners and to march south to Riverrun where he married. And Jon was born somewhere around the time of KL falling so he was conceived 9 month before it that place it very close to the time of Ned’s wedding.

Everything that was written about babies is right but there is a possibility to be mistaken about their age since they develop with a different speed. One of my own sons started to walk in 14 month and another when he was 11 month old. So Catelyn could have mistaken who is actually older Robb or Jon but not by far. Yet she believed that Ned conceived his bastard after they were married.

[Shewoman]

I agree with MattTaz and Mezeh that Jon and Robb must have been born within a month or so of each other. I used to run a day care center--we accepted kids starting at age 3 months--and it's quite true that they develop at different rates. Sometimes we had children there who'd been born within two weeks of each other, but one would sit up or walk a month or more in advance of the other. There's no real rubric to predict at what rate a child will develop. Doctors will give you a general timeline that's generally accurate--but that often ends up making parents worry that there's something wrong with their child if he or she doesn't start walking at the moment the chart says they will. Kids are just different. Catelyn could have been wrong about which child was older. In one sense, she'd very much prefer Robb to be his father's eldest child--but if Jon was, then that would mean he was conceived before Ned and Cat married and that wouldn't be quite as hard to take.

Ned also needed time after the fall of King's Landing to find Lyanna at the Tower of Joy (and, perhaps, to find out that she was there), to travel to Starfall with Arthur Dayne's swod, and to get back to Winterfell, so the fact that the war lasted about a year doesn't mean that he was home a year after it started.

[A wilding]

It's good to see you, Wildling--especially since you're using words like "titivating."

Well thank you. Sorry about my vocabulary, you can always blame it on HA's influence.

[Mezeh]

I agree but there are two moments not one. Catelyn indeed preferred that Robb would be his father eldest but she also most probably thought that Ned didn’t have a possibility to conceive his bastards before his marriage. It is indeed difficult to imagine that Ashara visited Ned in the North and otherwise we could not place her near Ned by the time of Jon conceiving. The story of the fish man daughter fits to the timeline better but then how Jon ended to be born in the south?

[Gil-galad]

I agree but there are two moments not one. Catelyn indeed preferred that Robb would be his father eldest but she also most probably thought that Ned didn’t have a possibility to conceive his bastards before his marriage. It is indeed difficult to imagine that Ashara visited Ned in the North and otherwise we could not place her near Ned by the time of Jon conceiving. The story of the fish man daughter fits to the timeline better but then how Jon ended to be born in the south?

I think Catelyn dislikes Jon because he has claims for Winterfell, IMO. If Jon would be the eldest son of Ned he would even have better claims or a reason to think to have a better claim and would be a greater treat for Catelyns sons. Therefore I think she even tries to convince herself that Robb is older even if she maybe fears that it could be otherwise, because it is more probable that Ned had more possibilities before the war then during.

[Mezeh]

As a bastard Jon had no claim at all no matter who was born first he or Robb. Catelyn disliked Jon because she saw that Ned loved in Jon Jon’s mother whoever she was and Catelyn was jealous to her rival.

The last thing is very important for this topic. Catelyn possibly erred about Jon’s age but she could not possibly have been wrong about her husband feelings.

Ned loved Jon's mother fiercely.

[Shewoman]

Mezeh, I agree that it's not likely that Ned and Ashara had a northern liaison--and if Jon was conceived before the war even started (which would have been a couple of months before Ned and Catelyn married and conceived Robb on their wedding night) the age difference would have been apparent. I'm assuming that the liaison, if it existed, would have been before the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark put Ned in a position where he could not marry for love and also maintain his duty to his family. I don't think Ned would have risked impregnating a woman he loved when he knew he wouldn't be able to protect her reputation or help their child.

You're also right that Jon has no claim to Winterfell--at least not until Robb, in Storm of Swords, proposes legitimizing him. Catelyn is desperately unhappy about that; it would make Jon's claim and those of his descendants come before her other children's claims and those of their descendants since Jon is definitely older than they are. She also points out that, while Robb trusts Jon absolutely, Jon's descendants could be quite different from Jon himself. She also mentions the Blackfyre Rebellion which involved legitimated Targaryen bastards rising up (an important plot element in the second Dunk and Egg story).

[Jon Targaryen]

While we are still discussing Jon's Parentage, it seems we have drifted away from the second weeks quotes. Due to that, let's open up the third week for discussion.

"He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." AGOT 103 Tyrion thoughts

A little more evidence that Jon has the Stark look. And a little irony if Lyanna is in fact the mother.

He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

AGOT 152 Jon thoughts

This is not true hard evidence of any kind. But I think we can take it to mean that Jon's mother is either Lyanna or Ashara. This is a strike against Wylla, which was my least favorite option before the re-read anyway.

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

AGOT 167 Ned thoughts

By far one of the strongest quotes in support of R+L=J, imo. So now we know Lyanna pleaded for someone's life just like Sansa pleaded for Lady's. Rhaegar was already dead. Robert she probably didn't care about but in any case he was safe. So that leaves a mystery here that is easily filled by the "pleadee" being her child.

"'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

AGOT 186 Ned

The "wolf blood" of Lyanna could be used to support multiple theories. One is that she ran off with Rhaegar willingly. Another is that she went on ahead of her escort and was captured by Rhaegar. Going further, maybe she attacked Rhaegar or one of the KG and was stabbed for it and that is where the "bed of blood" comes from.

"And even the lie was ... not without honor."

AGOT 187

Ned seems to be tacitly admitting to himself that he has lied in the past. Perhaps there are some lies he has lived that were "not without honor" as well.

[Shewoman]

Jon Targaryen, Knight of the Pink Dog, the quote about Jon dreaming of a high-born mother excludes Wylla only if we think his dreams are accurate (or that she won't turn out to have an unexpected backstory). He is being raised as a bastard in a noble house and doesn't know who his mother is; of course he would hope that she was highborn. I agree with you that Wylla probably isn't Jon's mother, but I don't think this quote provides much support.

I do agree with your conclusion that Ned at one point heard Lyanna plead for someone's life. We know so little about her before she vanished except that she was at Harrenhal, was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty by the married Rhaegar, that she might have been the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and that she didn't believe Robert would be faithful to her. Arya is also like her in some respects. The main place we "see" her (aside from Meera's story about Harrenhal, which certainly is significant) is in Ned's memories of her deathbed and the promises she asked for. That being so, it's tempting to think of that as the setting for Ned's having heard Lyanna beg for someone's life: her child's. If so, she was probably asking him to save her child from Robert; I don't get the impression that the KG meant him harm. It is, however, possible that she begged for Howland's life at Harrenhal. Ned was there as well. If "all smiles died" when Rhaegar gave her the crown, that would presumably include Aerys', since he was there. Perhaps Rhaegar needed saving . . . although I can't help but think that we would have heard some hint of that by now.

[Roza Ahai]

Another is that she went on ahead of her escort and was captured by Rhaegar. Going further, maybe she attacked Rhaegar or one of the KG and was stabbed for it and that is where the "bed of blood" comes from.

She should be stabbed after KL falling, not before the war. Oherwise, it is weird, why she is in the "bed of blood" for almost 1 year.

[Gil-galad]

As a bastard Jon had no claim at all no matter who was born first he or Robb.

Surly Daemon Blackfyre was thinking the same thing before starting his rebellion…

[Sarella]

He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind. AGOT 152 Jon thoughts

I agree that this is a strike against Wylla. Dreams are important in these books and always mean something. Link this one of Jon's dreams with the recurring one where he is looking for someone at Winterfell, ends up at the crypts and yells "I am no Stark!", and I think we have strong evidence in support of Lyanna.

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. AGOT 167 Ned thoughts

Why would there be all these incomplete mentions of Lyanna's bed of blood and Ned's promises if it doesn't tell us something that is important to the story? If Lyanna's pleading was for anything other than Jon's life, it isn't important enough to warrant all the mystery.

"'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

AGOT 186 Ned

Ned is talking to Arya here, and right before this quote he says that Arya reminds him of Lyanna. This is important in learning a little about Lyanna's character. About the kind of things a 14 year old Arya might do, such as learn to sword fight and joust, joust in a tourney as a mystery knight, forsake her betrothal to run away with the prince and fulfill the prophecy...

"And even the lie was ... not without honor."

AGOT 187

In itself it only means that Ned isn't against lying so long as their is honour in the lie. It could be something as small as telling Cat she looks great when in fact she looks a wreck.

Linked with the mystery of Jon's parentage it only means that it is possible that Ned would lie about Jon's parentage if there was enough honour in the lie. That Ned may have lied when he told Robert Jon's mother was Wylla, in order to protect the honour of the real mother. I find this hard to believe, though, because in doing so Ned is dishonouring Wylla.

Linked with Lyanna's bed of blood and pleading, it could mean that Ned would lie about being Jon's father in order to protect Jon.

[Shewoman]

I'm not sure that in that culture a servant was considered to have "honor" in the sense that a nobly born person did. There was no expectation and no way that Wylla would make a politically important or economically advantageous marriage. Ashara Dayne, on the other hand, could expect such a marriage, but not if she was known to have borne a child out of wedlock. This may have something to do with Ned flying off the handle at Catelyn (who made an advantageous marriage) when she asks if Ashara is Jon's mother. As a servant, Wylla's most likely spouse would be another servant--who could have no expectation of her being a virgin, since she's a wetnurse and therefore must have given birth at least once. And since in the series present day Wylla is apparently telling people (or, at least, letting them think) that she's Jon's mother, she doesn't seem slowed down by the "honor" issue.

I wonder if the identity of the father of Wylla's child could possibly matter--and I wonder what happened to that baby.

[Wunsa Knight]

I've only read the books once, but it seems to me that the most plausible parents for Jon are 1) Ned and Ashara, or 2) Lyanna and a Targ, most likely Rhaeger. Given Ned's actions he's clearly trying to protect a secret here, and either of these give motive for secrecy.

For N+A, given how bastards are normally handled by the highborn, why would Ned bring Jon to Winterfell? If secrecy on parentage was an issue, seems like there would be better ways than having the child around one of the real parents.

For R+L, clearly this secrecy would be required, if for no other reason than to keep Robert from going after Jon as a surviving Targ. But why would this require Ned to keep the secret from Catelyn? Maybe in the first years of marriage, since they may have been unfamiliar with each other, but for 14 years? If Jon is no threat to succession at Winterfell by Catelyn's sons, then why could she not be trusted? Seems like it certainly would have eased marital relations to do so. As for Rhaeger, I find it odd that Ned could go years without thinking of him if he really were the parent of a child Ned sees every day.

Second issue with Jon possibly having Targ blood. For Jon to be a threat to the throne would it have been necessary for R and L to have married? If not then why the need for secrecy? Are there any hints that suggest that such a marriage occurred?

If Jon is a "legitimate" Targ, who's now left that could know, and maybe more importantly, are able to prove it? Howland Reed and the "other" in the room at the TOJ come to mind, but any others? At this point there seems to be a very limited number of sources for this info.

[Jon Targaryen]

For R+L, clearly this secrecy would be required, if for no other reason than to keep Robert from going after Jon as a surviving Targ. But why would this require Ned to keep the secret from Catelyn? Maybe in the first years of marriage, since they may have been unfamiliar with each other, but for 14 years? If Jon is no threat to succession at Winterfell by Catelyn's sons, then why could she not be trusted? Seems like it certainly would have eased marital relations to do so. As for Rhaeger, I find it odd that Ned could go years without thinking of him if he really were the parent of a child Ned sees every day.

There is a quote by Ned we will cover later that goes into Ned's opinion on keeping secrets.

Second issue with Jon possibly having Targ blood. For Jon to be a threat to the throne would it have been necessary for R and L to have married? If not then why the need for secrecy? Are there any hints that suggest that such a marriage occurred?

For Jon to be a legitimate threat to Robert, yes. But Robert would still want to kill Jon as the love-child of Rhaegar and Lyanna whether he was legitimate or not.

If Jon is a "legitimate" Targ, who's now left that could know, and maybe more importantly, are able to prove it? Howland Reed and the "other" in the room at the TOJ come to mind, but any others? At this point there seems to be a very limited number of sources for this info.

Howland, maybe Wylla, maybe others.

[Shewoman]

Good questions, Wunsa Knight. I agree that Ned's actions and thoughts indicate that he's keeping a secret.

If Jon is Lyanna's son and if his father is a Targaryen other than Rhaegar--some big "ifs" there--I think the most likely daddy candidate is Aerys. Rhaegar, Aerys, and Lyanna were all at Harrenhal, so both men most likely saw her there (I wonder if Rhaegar had met her before that?). And Aerys definitely seems to have been one of those Targaryens whose genes took him in the crazy-as-a-loon direction.

We know that Ned and Ashara became interested in each other at Harrenhal but, while I can't think of any other man she's linked to romantically, I don't think we can assume that a child of Ashara's would have to be fathered by Ned. I think there could be some timeline problems. I'm not sure how much time elapsed between the tournament at Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance--a little help, anyone?--but I don't think it was as much as a year. If N+A occurred at Harrenhal, Jon is too young to have been conceived then. I don't know where Ashara went immediately after Harrenhal (although we know she spent some time as one of Elia's ladies at King's Landing--which isn't much help because I don't think Ned was there until the city fell, which is much too late for Jon to have been conceived then even if Ashara was still there, which I don't think she was). I also don't think Ned would have risked impregnating Ashara once Brandon died and he knew he would have to marry Catelyn; that would potentially put Ashara in a world of hurt and he would be unable to claim the baby.

Whether Ned is or is not Jon's father, the fact that he's claiming o be would keep people from asking questions about Jon's paternity, at least. That might be convenient.

IF Jon has Targaryen blood, that issue will never go away as long as any of his heirs survive. In A Feast for Crows we come across some Targaryen supporters. I don't remember where, but I do remember that. Robert's rise to kingship was won in battle helped with the Targaryen blood in his family, but if a genuine Targaryen appeared to claim the throne, I think he or she would have found some support in Westeros. In GoT Robert sends an assassin after Dany because he perceives her and any children she might have as a threat to his throne, and he's right. So that's one reason to keep it a secret.

Another is that IF keeping Jon's Targaryen blood a secret was one of the dratted promises Ned made to Lyanna, his sense of honor won't let him renege on his word. No matter how much he came to love and trust Catelyn, if he promised Lyanna to keep that secret, he'd keep it. And I'm not sure how trustworthy Catelyn would be on the subject of Jon anyway; she never liked the fact of him and I don't think she ever would. I like her, but I can easily visualize her using the danger Jon could be to the whole family as an excuse to try to get him sent away.

I'm not aware of any hints that R+L=marriage. If they did marry, I'm not sure what evidence of that would be accepted. It would have to be awfully strong. So Jon would have to be legitimated to succeed to the throne--but if he fought and won a war to establish himself as king, that wouldn't be necessary. This is exactly the sort of thing that worries Catelyn when Robb starts talking about legitimizing Jon as a Stark--which would put not only Jon but all of his heirs in line to inherit Winterfell ahead of Sansa/heirs, Arya/heirs, Bran/heirs, Rickon/heirs because he is older than all of them; if Robb did legitimize Jon, he probably allowed for his heirs to inherit before Jon (SoS, p. 628). Catelyn mentions the Blackfyre Rebellion (an issue in the second Dunk and Egg story) as an example of the problems caused by legitimation of bastards.

I agree that it's odd that Ned goes years without thinking of Rhaegar. He clearly loves Jon as his own, so I can understand his not thinking of Rhaegar every time he looks at Jon--but never to think of him at all?!? The only explanation I can think of here is that Ned doesn't believe that Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance--or that, if he thinks Rhaegar was involved, he believes R had a good motive--like protecting her from Aerys. Or he's got amnesia.

Howland and the "Other" (I nominate Wylla for that role) might know Jon's provenance. So might Selmy, who was close to Rhaegar. There was some communication between Rhaegar and Maester Aemon at the Wall, and Aemon might have kept some sort of record of it. And Varys pretty much knows everything.

[Roza Ahai]

Is this Hightower, who found Rhaegar at ToJ and let him know about the Rebellion?

[Jon Targaryen]

Sarella added some additional quotes to the list, the first of which and which we will cover this week is:

"The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."

Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color."

AGOT 79 Robb and Jon talking

[Rinso]

"The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."

Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color."

AGOT 79 Robb and Jon talking

Ya, well... I think is a tad streched to say that this is any evidence about R+L=J. I mean, even IF Jon (I desperately want to believe that's not the case) is Rhaegar's son, how the heck that's any connection? Yes, the Targaryen symbol is the red dragon on the black field, but they are much more connected with the dragon, not with the black.

I actually think that this was... well, what it was - a lame attempt of Jon to make a joke, not acknowledgement of the background of his assumptive family's arms.

[Mezeh]

I'm not aware of any hints that R+L=marriage. If they did marry, I'm not sure what evidence of that would be accepted. It would have to be awfully strong.

The hint to possible Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage is presence and behavior of Kingsgurd at TOJ. After Rhaegar and his children death they were supposed to protect Viserys as the only remained heir to the throne. Ned actually all but offered then to go to Viserys yet they preferred to stay and to fight. Even Jon have been Rhaegar’s bastard could not explain this but him been Rhaegar’s legitimate son would place him before Viserys in order of succession and explain why Kingsguard had no other choice.

You are right about needed evidence but if Rhaegar indeed married Lyanna then must have some witness to it. We must look for it among Rhaegar’s close friend but they all are dead with one possible exception of Jon Connington. If so his witness could be strong enough.

I agree that it's odd that Ned goes years without thinking of Rhaegar. He clearly loves Jon as his own, so I can understand his not thinking of Rhaegar every time he looks at Jon--but never to think of him at all?!? The only explanation I can think of here is that Ned doesn't believe that Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance--or that, if he thinks Rhaegar was involved, he believes R had a good motive--like protecting her from Aerys. Or he's got amnesia.

The explanation could be quite simple. Ned tried to avoid thinking about Rhaegar and succeeded in it. Why to avoid such thinking? If R+L=J theory is true and if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willintly and fell in love with him then Ned had no reason to hate the man his sister loved yet Rhaegar was a cause of her death and besides permanent reminder of Ned’s lies about Jon. IMO reason good enough not to think about him at all.