The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

[Rinso]

If R+L=J theory is true and if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willintly and fell in love with him then Ned had no reason to hate the man his sister loved yet Rhaegar was a cause of her death and besides permanent reminder of Ned’s lies about Jon. IMO reason good enough not to think about him at all.

That's one of the things that always have bothered me with the R+L=J theory, btw. How the hell Ned would accept the grandson of the man who ordered the murders of his own brother and father, in his family? Y'see, for this theory to work, so to speak, we must assume that Ned Stark didn't hold any grudges to the Targaryens for what happened to his father, his brother and his sister. And that's unlikely. Yes, by the time of AGOT he probably has put all this behind his back -- unlike Robert -- but I find it hard to believe that he would hide and raise Aerys' grandson.

[Mezeh]

That's one of the things that always have bothered me with the R+L=J theory, btw. How the hell Ned would accept the grandson of the man who ordered the murders of his own brother and father, in his family? Y'see, for this theory to work, so to speak, we must assume that Ned Stark didn't hold any grudges to the Targaryens for what happened to his father, his brother and his sister. And that's unlikely. Yes, by the time of AGOT he probably has put all this behind his back -- unlike Robert -- but I find it hard to believe that he would hide and raise Aerys' grandson.

If the theory is true then Ned raised his beloved sister son and not his enemy grandson. We also know that Ned was disgusted by killing of Rhaegar’s children and fervently opposed to killing of Aerys daughter.

[Rinso]

If the theory is true then Ned raised his beloved sister son and not his enemy grandson. We also know that Ned was disgusted by killing of Rhaegar’s children and fervently opposed to killing of Aerys daughter.

He was disgusted just because it was murder of children. IMO, he didn't have any worm feelings towards them, he would probably want just to sent them into exile or something, but I doubt that he would raise them among his own family. Same with Dany - he didn't saw her as a threat, cause she wasn't until her dragons hatched; and when this happened, Ned was dead. She was already an exile without money or power, so he saw no reason in her assassination besides Robert's malice.

[Mezeh]

Ned wasn’t blinded by hate like Robert and he apparently didn’t hold the children responsible for their father and grandfather deeds. Catelyn said that Ned loved in Jon his mother and we know that Ned loved his sister. For Ned love for his dead sister definitely would be stronger than hate for his dead enemy.

By the way after Dany was impregnated by Drogo she did became a threat albeit potential one.

[Rinso]

Of course, he wasn't blinded by hate, but I doubt that he liked the Targaryens very much. And I'm not saying that he would hold the children of Aerys/Rhaegar responsible, just I doubt that it would be pleasant for him to raise them like his own. However, he seems to love and respect Jon no less than his lawful children, and I doubt that he can do that for a Targaryen bastard. Besides, the whole scheme makes him look like a Targ-supporter (hiding and raising Rhaegar's son), while in fact, he is not.

As for Dany, she was nothing before she became the Mother of Dragons - the Dothraki would never cross the sea for her just because she was Khal Drogo's bimbo. Sure, she may have tried to conquer all of the Eastern Continent and then attack Westeros, but you know as well as I do that this is an impossible stretch.

[Mezeh]

Lyanna was afraid when she asked Ned remember? Probably you just listed her reasons. Yet Ned’s love for his sister was stronger then any of them.

Daenerys was next to nothing before she became Mother of Dragons right but her son by Drogo with time could have become a real danger. Just read again the chapter. Ned didn’t argue against it he only stated that the danger is very distant and only potential since Dany could have miscarried had girl e.t.c.

[A wilding]

RL is littered with examples of people who have brought up a child despite having every reason to hate one of the child's parents.

This does raise an interesting question though: Did Ned love Jon? Certainly he felt a duty towards him, but I am not sure that we have any clear indication of his personal feelings. The closest I can think of is when Cat's refusal to allow Jon to stay in Winterfell immediately makes him angry.

[Rinso]

This does raise an interesting question though: Did Ned love Jon? Certainly he felt a duty towards him, but I am not sure that we have any clear indication of his personal feelings. The closest I can think of is when Cat's refusal to allow Jon to stay in Winterfell immediately makes him angry.

Well, there is no clearer indication about his feeling towards... let's say Robb or Rickon but we all assume that he loves them, right? There is no evidence that Ned didn't love Jon and he always seems to treat him with the respect he gives to his other children, so I think it's safe to assume that he had no bad feelings towards him.

Lyanna was afraid when she asked Ned remember? Probably you just listed her reasons. Yet Ned’s love for his sister was stronger then any of them.

It depends how one perceives the things it seems. To me, if R+L=J is true, I would think of Jon as Rhaegar's son first and foremost, so it would make me feel uncomfortable to read that Ned raised him.

Daenerys was next to nothing before she became Mother of Dragons right but her son by Drogo with time could have become a real danger. Just read again the chapter. Ned didn’t argue against it he only stated that the danger is very distant and only potential since Dany could have miscarried had girl e.t.c.

I did. And it's the same - let say that Rhaego was born and everything was fine with him. He would've been raised as a Dothraki man, and as such, he wouldn't be very fond of the idea to cross the sea just to fight in Westeros, when he would've had all the Eastern Continent to plague and burn. And even if he eventually decides to come in Westeros, he would never stand a chance all by himself. And that's a lot of "if"-s and "would"-s. He might as well have fallen from a rampant horse as a boy, killed by another Khal, have his head smashed with a stone by some woman he rapes, be born as a dolt etc. Everything else was just the crap dreams of Dany for vengeance and glory. The real deal was when the dragons hatched - they are much more valuable than her son.

[Guest Other-in-law]

To me, if R+L=J is true, I would think of Jon as Rhaegar's son first and foremost, so it would make me feel uncomfortable to read that Ned raised him.

I did. And it's the same - let say that Rhaego was born and everything was fine with him. He would've been raised as a Dothraki man, and as such, he wouldn't be very fond of the idea to cross the sea just to fight in Westeros

I don't understand why you think a child's father is so much more important than it's mother in shaping it's identity. Rhaego wouldn't be a Dothraki man, he would be half-dothraki and half-Targaryen. And Jon would be Lyanna's son (assuming blah, blah, blah) just as much as Rhaegar's. Not that we've seen any evidence that Ned hated Rhaegar anyway.

[Rinso]

I don't understand why you think a child's father is so much more important than it's mother in shaping it's identity.

I don't think like this on principle. It's just the particular case with R+L=J. Maybe because the only point of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is for him to be somehow connected to the royal family and later Dany... yada-yada-yada-cheesy.

Rhaego wouldn't be a Dothraki man, he would be half-dothraki and half-Targaryen.

Yes, he would've been only half-dothraki, but I bet that Drogo would have raised him like a regular one.

Not that we've seen any evidence that Ned hated Rhaegar anyway.

Nor have we seen evidence that he cared about him and it would be hard for him not to dislike the entire family of Aerys after what he did to Brandon and Rickard.

[Mezeh]

From Ned’s conversation with Robert we could see that for Ned whatever quarrel he had with Rhaegar was settled with the death of the last.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Yes, he would've been only half-dothraki, but I bet that Drogo would have raised him like a regular one.

And he'd never even know who his mother was, or how lofty his maternal family's heritage and claims of kingship were, somehow?

and it would be hard for him not to dislike the entire family of Aerys after what he did to Brandon and Rickard.

Why? Why does Ned have to be so hopelessly simplistic that he's incapable of differentiating between different members of the same family? Especially when they're such very different individuals?

[Rinso]

From Ned’s conversation with Robert we could see that for Ned whatever quarrel he had with Rhaegar was settled with the death of the last.

Yes, that much is clear. Like I said erlier:

by the time of AGOT he probably has put all this behind his back -- unlike Robert --

However, I'm not sure that even if he let it all go, he would raise a boy with half a Targaryen blood.

And he'd never even know who his mother was, or how lofty his maternal family's heritage and claims of kingship were, somehow?

You know as well as I do, that for the Dothraki the women are lower than men in society. So, I imagine that Drogo would have the last word when it comes to the raising of their child. Especially when this child is his firstborn son.

Why? Why does Ned have to be so hopelessly simplistic that he's incapable of differentiating between different members of the same family? Especially when they're such very different individuals?

Why? Well, try to put yourself in the same shoes - your sister disappears, probably kidnapped by the son of the most powerful quy around. Your brother and father later are killed viciously by the same guy when they go to him to ask for justice. And a year later your sister dies giving birth to the guy's grandson. And you're telling me that you would raise the kid like your own?

Cause I tried to put myself in these shoes, and I would definitely never gonna do that.

[Mezeh]

Yes, that much is clear. Like I said erlier:

However, I'm not sure that even if he let it all go, he would raise a boy with half a Targaryen blood.

He wouldn’t. But to honor his sister death wish and his own promise to her he would.

[Guest Other-in-law]

You know as well as I do, that for the Dothraki the women are lower than men in society.

The particular woman in question was shown successfully defying Dothraki rape customs. Drogo acceded to her demands that they stop doing what their people had always done.

Why? Well, try to put yourself in the same shoes - your sister disappears, probably kidnapped by the son of the most powerful quy around. Your brother and father later are killed viciously by the same guy when they go to him to ask for justice. And a year later your sister dies giving birth to the guy's grandson. And you're telling me that you would raise the kid like your own?

Cause I tried to put myself in these shoes, and I would definitely never gonna do that.

Perhaps it's just you. I would definitely take care of my dying sister's child. The child is not responsible for what his grandfather did. Why would you punish an innocent child?

[Rinso]

The particular woman in question was shown successfully defying Dothraki rape customs. Drogo acceded to her demands that they stop doing what their people had always done.

Rape customs are one thing. His firstborn son is a whole different story. Especially since he was The Stallion Who Mounts The World - a Dothraki prophecy about a leader and hero.

Perhaps it's just you. I would definitely take care of my dying sister's child. The child is not responsible for what his grandfather did. Why would you punish an innocent child?

The child is not responsible, but you can't tell me that it wouldn't feel awkward to raise the blood of the man who wronged your family so greatly. The fact that his blood is mixed with yours would make it worse, I believe. Ned, however, never feels awkward towards Jon.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Ned, however, never feels awkward towards Jon.

That must be why he told him all about his mother when he still had the chance, huh?

From the Black Cells:

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him....

Whether or not it's his parentage, it sounds like Ned felt awkward enough that he never told him some things that he wished he had.

[Gaston de Foix]

While we are still discussing Jon's Parentage, it seems we have drifted away from the second weeks quotes. Due to that, let's open up the third week for discussion.

1. A little more evidence that Jon has the Stark look. And a little irony if Lyanna is in fact the mother.

This is not true hard evidence of any kind. But I think we can take it to mean that Jon's mother is either Lyanna or Ashara. This is a strike against Wylla, which was my least favorite option before the re-read anyway.

2. By far one of the strongest quotes in support of R+L=J, imo. So now we know Lyanna pleaded for someone's life just like Sansa pleaded for Lady's. Rhaegar was already dead. Robert she probably didn't care about but in any case he was safe. So that leaves a mystery here that is easily filled by the "pleadee" being her child.

3. The "wolf blood" of Lyanna could be used to support multiple theories. One is that she ran off with Rhaegar willingly. Another is that she went on ahead of her escort and was captured by Rhaegar. Going further, maybe she attacked Rhaegar or one of the KG and was stabbed for it and that is where the "bed of blood" comes from.

4. Ned seems to be tacitly admitting to himself that he has lied in the past. Perhaps there are some lies he has lived that were "not without honor" as well.

I don't have the quote function working, sorry. If someone can explain how one uses it I'll be grateful.

I've numbered the points I want to address in Week 3 in Jt's comments. I should disclose I'm a skeptic of the Lyanna and Rhaegar theory of parentage, although I occaisonally veer towards belief based on my mood. Right now, colour me doubtful. For what it's worth though, I think a great deal of these questions of paternity will play out in Jon's mind at some point in the future, and to some extent we are anticipating his internal thoughts , i.e. Jon will know enough to wonder, and that wonder will be resolved somehow.

1. I see this as a clear hint of facial resemblances between Jon and Ned. Yes it's possible Jon looks like Lyanna but I never got a sense that Jon possessed great physical beauty, anymore than Arya did. Lyanna and Rhaegar were both very comely, by all acounts. Shouldn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna have all the women in Winterfell pining for him? This may not mean much, but I recollect that when the Dornish and the Targaryens intermarried, the children by and large kept their Targaryen features, with the children and grandchildren of Good King Daeron looking pretty Valyrian.

2. We know Lyanna pleaded , and of course it makes bloody intuitive sense that she pleaded for the life of her child, asked Ned to hide him in obscurity perhaps, and Ned acknowledged then or decided later the best place to hide Jon was to hide him in plain sight as his bastard. I think this very strong evidence indeed for the other side, but I interpret it as a red herring here :0)

3. I think the wolf-blood is pretty clear evidence of willing elopement. Perhaps I'm calling it prematurely, but I think theories of Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna are sufficiently inconsistent with what has been revealed of his character as to require rethinking. I know an argument can be mounted of abduction by necessity, but it's hard to reconcile the genuine love Rhaegar felt for Lyanna with the emotions a rapist and abductor would feel towards his prize.

4. The honour part is most revealing IMO. As it happens Eddard does lie in AGOT, and not just about the hazy past, but about the recent past. I don't have a copy of the book, but Ned lies when asked about Tyrion's abduction, saying Catelyn was acting on his instructions when questioned by King Robert. Placing his wife's honour above his own is of course classic Ned, and it's a quality Robb has inherited to disastorous consequences. If Jon is Ashara's illegitimate son, it would make perfect sense for Ned to lie about Jon's parentage when Robert questioned him to protect her honour. The guilt also makes sense because of Ashara's decision to commit suicide deprived of her son and lover.

[Guest Other-in-law]

1. I see this as a clear hint of facial resemblances between Jon and Ned. Yes it's possible Jon looks like Lyanna but I never got a sense that Jon possessed great physical beauty, anymore than Arya did. Lyanna and Rhaegar were both very comely, by all acounts. Shouldn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna have all the women in Winterfell pining for him? This may not mean much, but I recollect that when the Dornish and the Targaryens intermarried, the children by and large kept their Targaryen features, with the children and grandchildren of Good King Daeron looking pretty Valyrian.

Arya was called "horseface" and yet Ned said she looked like the beautiful Lyanna. Aparently there can be a resemblance without a universal consensus of comparable attractiveness.

Also, Ygritte specifically used the phrase "his sweet face" when complaining about the Eagle scratching Jon.

[Gaston de Foix]

Incidentally JT, can you put the quotes about Ghost up as well? If Jon is Ned's bastard, then his Stark identity is intimately tied up with Ghost- I was thinking of finding Ghost and the scene at the end of ASOS where Jon and Ghost are reunited.