The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

[Mezeh]

Mezeh, you raise a good point. There is obviously some interest in Westeros in who was the mother of Ned's bastard. Ashara and Wylla are both mentioned as candidates. If Ashara did give birth to a child out of wedlock, the Daynes might be interested in hiding that fact for the sake of their family honor (even if she is dead now). I've thought of Wylla's allowing it to be thought that she was Jon's mother as her protecting whatever secret is connected to his birth--but it might be that she's protecting Ashara's reputation instead.

I would say this is possible. This would make Jon’s situation very similar to that of Tom Jones of Fielding.

However this would raise additional questions.

Wylla version is known only in Starfall and to Robert. Ned and Robert have meet when Ned traveled north with his sister’s bones and reconciled them. Jon obviously was with Ned by the time so Robert doubtless would ask Ned where he got the child. Wylla was the answer Ned gave him and by Ned’s reluctance to repeat it late this most probably was a lie. Besides if Wylla indeed was Jon’s mother there was no reason for Ned to make such a secret of it – a common wench could not be dishonored by having son by great lord.

Yet if Wylla was covering lady Ashara not only she would know the truth but at least somebody in Dayne family as well. Ashara sister that told her nephew Ned+Ashara story is a prime candidate.

Yet while N+A-J theory would explain Ashara supposed suicide we will stuck with Ned’s promise to Lyanna and Kingsguard presence and behavior at TOJ. And with cause of Lyanna’s death as well.

[BrainFireBob]

Random addition.

I had always, always assumed that Ned did not know Lyanna was pregnant until he came on her dying, and that that is what drove his reactions. He thought the Kingsguard died protecting Rhaegar's "prize," and did not understand why they stood to fight instead of fulfilling their honorable vows- then finding Rhaegar's heir, he understood just what honor he had destroyed. Hence their haunting him along with Lyanna- perhaps he thinks he should have known by their presence, that if he'd tried to parlay instead of fighting, his dearest friends would not have been slain nor men he greatly honored, leaving him the only one who could protect his sister's child by lies and deceit.

Runons FTW. Always seemed his obsession with the KG mattered too- there's definite guilt there as well. A kind of "If I'd only realized" guilt.

[BrainFireBob]

I know other people see things differently and I acknowledged that but I honestly think I'm right on this one and I really cannot see how anyone could read it differently. There's nothing Ned can say to Robert because he thinks Robert is right and I've haven't seen anything put forward to make me doubt this for an instance and the same cannot be said for most of the other passages we'll discuss.

It's the tone you inject into the comments. To some of us, it smacks of obsession- Robert isn't using hyperbole to make his point, he's being literal about his feelings because his rage at Rhaegar completely unhinges his reason. It's all in the inflection you place in the comments while reading them.

[Dimadick]

Why do the Daynes cover Ned?

If the Daynes are covering some secret of Ned, Lord Stark may have entered some hidden pact with them while traveling in Dorne. Notice that Edric Dayne at least does not treat Arya Stark as a hereditary enemy.

This could mean that there honour is involved and they would be interested in deny that Lady Ashara had a bastard son.

Would they? Unlike other Westerosi, the Dornishmen do not seem to care much for hiding out the existence of bastards. If the Martells flaunt the existence of the Sand Snakes and the populace has some affection for them, my guess would be that illegitimacy is not seen as much of a shame there.

2. Why should the Daynes be that loyal? I mean hey they are of Dorne and Dorne was for centuries at war with the Targs.

But the war has long ceased and the Martells have intermarried into the Targaryan bloodline.

In case you forgot, from the genealogies given:

*Daeron II "the Good" Targaryen married Myriah Martell. Dornish noblemen entered the court of King's Landing in numbers and seemed to have formed their own party at court. Openly resented by nobles and courtiers seeming to loose some of their past influence.

*Their known children included (1)Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone. Predeceased his father. (2)Aerys I Targaryen. Died childless. (3) Rhaegal Targaryen. Predeceased his older brother. (4) Maekar I Targaryen. (5) Aelinor Targaryen, Queen consort to Aerys. All first-generation products of the marriage.

*Maekar effectively killed Baelor during a trial by combat. He became King by surviving all three of his older brothers and the children of Baelor alike.

*The known children of Maekar I include (1) Daeron "the Drunkard" Targaryen. (2) Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen "the Monstrous". (3) Aemon Targaryen. Became a maester and later a member of the Night's Watch. (4) Aegon V "Egg" Targaryen "the Fortunate". (5) Daella Targaryen. (6)Rhae Targaryen. All second-generation products of the marriage.

*Aegon V mounted the throne by displacing the offspring of Daeron and Aerion. Aemon had effectively removed himself from succession and vowed to never have children of his own.

*The known children of Aegon V include (1) Duncan "the Small" Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone. Perished with his father in the Tragedy of Summerhall. (2) Jaehaerys II Targaryen. (3) Rhaella Targaryen. Married into House Baratheon, mother of Steffon Baratheon, maternal grandmother of Robert, Stannis and Renly Baratheon. All third-generation products of the marriage.

*Jaehaerys II succeeded to the throne after the simultaneous deaths of his father and elder brother.

*The known children of Jaehaerys II include (1) Aerys II "the Mad" Targaryen. (2) Rhaella Targaryen, Queen consort to Aerys II. Both fourth-generation products of the marriage.

*Aerys II succeeded to the throne after his father succumbed to a disease. He seems to have reinforced the alliance with Dorne by a new marriage.

*The known children of Aerys II and Rhaella include (1) Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone. Married his cousin Elia Martell. Predeceased his father. (2) Viserys Targaryen. (3) Daenerys "Dany" Targaryen. All fifth-generation products of the marriage.

*The known children of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell include (1) Rhaenys Targaryen. Executed by Amory Lorch on orders of Tywin Lannister. (2) Aegon Targaryen. Executed by Gregor Clegane on orders of Tywin Lannister.

On the other side of the agreement, a sister of Daeron II married Maron Martell, Prince of Dorne. Though whether they were direct ancestors of Doran Martell, Elia and Oberyn has not been explained, chances of the wedding being remembered with disdain are slim at best.

I think we're in quite a bit of agreement here! But it sounds as if you don't think it would be any big deal if Wylla was Jon's wetnurse at first and then some other woman was his wetnurse while he needed one at Winterfell? As I said earlier, I don't know anything about the abundance of wetnurses or how easy it would be to find one but I just wonder how baby Jon would have travelled to Winterfell without a wetnurse?

"A woman can only serve as a wet nurse when she is lactating. It is often thought that this means the wet nurse must have recently given birth to a child of her own. This may be the case, but not necessarily, since regular suckling on a woman's breast can elicit the production of milk by a neural reflex.(E. Goljan, Pathology, 2nd ed. Mosby Elsevier, Rapid Review Series.)"

So Ned had to either find women who are already into the profession or young mothers nearby.

And, if she wasn't from the area around Winterfell, she'd have no particular loyalty to Catelyn.

You seem to be forgetting something. No one in the area around Winterfell would be particular loyal to Catelyn Tully Stark before she set foot in Winterfell. Whatever loyalty she gained in the North would need years of cultivation.

At the time Ned would have to hire the initial nurse maids for Jon Snow, Catelyn was still in Riverrun with young Robb Stark.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ned Dayne say that Wylla was his wetnurse, and Jon's mother? So if Jon was with a wetnurse of his own at Winterfell, it stands to reason that he wasn't with Wylla.

Edric explains that he and Jon were "milk brothers". Which means that both got their breast milk from the same woman. He identifies said woman as Wylla. The circumstances of the breast feeding are not fully explained to us.

[The Adequate Jon]

It was stated a couple of times that Jon was born about nine months after Dany, but I think those posts meant to say the opposite: Jon was born about nine months before Dany. When AGOT starts, Jon and Robb are 14 and Dany is 13.

[Shewoman]

Angalin--I think Aerys wanted both Ned and Robert in his custody after the murders of Brandon and Rickard Stark because Ned was now the head of the Stark family and Lord of Winterfell and Robert, in addition to being Ned's close friend, had been engaged to Lyanna whose disappearance seems to have started it all. I doubt that Aerys thought it was safe to leave them free. Both of them, I believe, were the heads of their families at this time and so could have raised armies.

Mezeh--yes, if Ashara had a child probably at least some of her family knew about it. But Ashara's sister telling their nephew Edric about it is still keeping it in the family. Edric is the heir to Starfall, IIRC.

BrainFireBob--good point about Ned not knowing Lyanna was pregnant before he got to ToJ.

Dimadick, you're right that I forgot that there would be no loyalty to Catelyn in the north--but it is possible that a woman from one of the Winterfell servants' families might have felt she should tell Lady Stark anything she knew about Lord Stark's bastard.

Edric does say that Wylla nursed both him and Jon--obviously years apart, given the difference in their ages.

[SkyPirate]

Angalin--I think Aerys wanted both Ned and Robert in his custody after the murders of Brandon and Rickard Stark because Ned was now the head of the Stark family and Lord of Winterfell and Robert, in addition to being Ned's close friend, had been engaged to Lyanna whose disappearance seems to have started it all. I doubt that Aerys thought it was safe to leave them free. Both of them, I believe, were the heads of their families at this time and so could have raised armies.

I believe GRRM has said in SSM that Robert was also a threat to the Targaryen trone because he was in fact pretty far up in the order of succession.

[Prince of the North]

Random addition.

I had always, always assumed that Ned did not know Lyanna was pregnant until he came on her dying, and that that is what drove his reactions. He thought the Kingsguard died protecting Rhaegar's "prize," and did not understand why they stood to fight instead of fulfilling their honorable vows- then finding Rhaegar's heir, he understood just what honor he had destroyed. Hence their haunting him along with Lyanna- perhaps he thinks he should have known by their presence, that if he'd tried to parlay instead of fighting, his dearest friends would not have been slain nor men he greatly honored, leaving him the only one who could protect his sister's child by lies and deceit.

Runons FTW. Always seemed his obsession with the KG mattered too- there's definite guilt there as well. A kind of "If I'd only realized" guilt.

Great point! I think this makes the most sense. After all, I seriously doubt Ned was receiving any news about or communications from Lyanna during the rebellion. I think we'd have heard about that. That brings another important question to mind: how did Ned know where to find Lyanna? How did he find out she was at the Tower of Joy? The answer to that will be an interesting tidbit, too!

[Shewoman]

SkyPirate--did Martin say that Robert was high in the Targaryen succession? My impression was that he had some Targ blood from a bastard line and that's one reason he, rather than any of the other rebels, became king after Aerys died--but I didn't think his "claim" was very strong compared to the actual Targaryens.

[Jon Targaryen]

Robert is descended from one of Eggs daughters.

[Sarella]

Robert's grandmother (his father's mother) was Rhaelle Targaryen. Rhaelle was Egg's daughter.

ETA: Look at this. The war wiped out the vast majority of Jaehaery's II line, leaving only Dany, Viserys, and Rhaella. So in fact, by the time of AGOT, if Dany and Viserys were both dead, Robert would have been the legitimate king.

[Shewoman]

Thanks for clearning that up for me, Jon T and Sarella.

Snake--if Ned agrees with Robert, why is there nothing he can say to him? Robert has just said he vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna; Ned responds, "You did," which is certainly true, and Robert ends with "Only once." Rhaegar's death is described in narrative; Robert speaks next: "In my dreams, I kill him every night. A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves" (GoT, p. 44, Ned). If _I_ agreed with Robert, I can think of a lot of things I could say: "The only way I can sleep at all is because you killed that rapist thug," "Lyanna would be grateful to know that you avenged her," "It's a shame you were unable to castrate him first." Robert has revealed that his hatred of Rhaegar haunts his sleep every night. Why is Ned unable to respond to that?

[the silent speaker]

Snake, the tone of "nothing he could say to that" seems to suggest that he recognizes the obsessiveness of Robert's hatred for all things Rhaegar and deems there no reasoning with it. On the flip side, all that demonstrates is that he doesn't share Robert's obsessiveness with the subject, not that he disagrees about Rhaegar getting exactly what he deserved with being killed that once.

After all, I seriously doubt Ned was receiving any news about or communications from Lyanna during the rebellion. I think we'd have heard about that. That brings another important question to mind: how did Ned know where to find Lyanna? How did he find out she was at the Tower of Joy? The answer to that will be an interesting tidbit, too!

It's not impossible that he got a raven that read, "Kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen. Held in mountains of Dorne. Send help."

Wylla was the answer Ned gave him and by Ned’s reluctance to repeat it late this most probably was a lie.

He didn't seem that reluctant to me. He answered Robert quite promptly. He said he would as soon not speak of her, but had no qualms about naming her the mother of his son.

[Shewoman]

Why would Ned "sooner not speak of her [Wylla]?" Is it because he doesn't like to lie to people he's connected to ("He's my blood")? Is it because Wylla has knowledge Ned doesn't want spread? Is it because it's the truth and Wylla has asked to be left out of any conversations about Jon--hard to reconcile with Edric Dayne's report that she's Jon's wet nurse and mother.

Robert says Ned never even told him what Wylla looked like and Ned responds "Nor will I." A few lines later Robert says "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strongly about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly you should take the hedgehog as your sigil."

That sounds to me like Robert--never exactly Mr. Insightful--perceives that Ned is unhappy with this conversation (for whatever reason) and is not going to provide him with any more information.

Ned and Robert fell out after the fall of King's Landing over the murders of Rhaegar's children. Ned headed out for the Tower of Joy, and he and Robert were reconciled later over their mutual grief at Lyanna's death. When and where was this reconciliation? How long was it between their disagreement over Aegon and Rhaenys and their working their differences out (if they ever did; Ned will argue with Robert again over his plan to send an assassin after Dany)?

I assume that it was at this meeting that Robert and Ned had their first conversation about Wylla. If Ned, previously childless, showed up with a kid he'd have to have some explanation for his friend. Perhaps he told the truth--but why keep Jon's mother a secret if she's a) a servant, who has little if any status to lose in that culture and was never going to make a politically and economically brilliant marriage in any case, and in the series present she's telling people (or allowing them to believe) that she's Jon's mother. If the identity of Jon's mother is supposed to be a secret, clearly Wylla's fallen behind in her newsgroup reading.

[Dimadick]

I believe GRRM has said in SSM that Robert was also a threat to the Targaryen trone because he was in fact pretty far up in the order of succession.

The order of succession used by most Houses in Westeros seems to be cognatic primogeniture. "Cognatic primogeniture (also known as male-preference primogeniture) allows a female to succeed if she has no living brothers and no deceased brothers who left surviving legitimate descendents. This was the most common primogeniture practiced in Western European feudalism, such as the Castilian Siete Partidas. In Europe, male-preferred primogeniture is currently practised in Denmark, Monaco, Spain and the United Kingdom. It is also usually the rule for inheritance of noble titles in Spain, Scotland and baronies-by-writ in the United Kingdom."

The exception is Dorne where they practice absolute primogeniture.

Absolute, equal or lineal primogeniture is inheritance by the oldest surviving child without regard to gender. It is also known as (full) cognatic primogeniture today. This form of primogeniture was not practiced by any monarchy before 1980."

The first to practice it was Sweden, there have been ongoing debates in Denmark, Spain and Japan to change their traditional succession laws to it.

If applied to the Targaryen line at the beginning of the War of the Usurper, the succession would look like this:

A. Aerys II Targaryen. Reigning king.

1) Rhaegar Targaryen.

2) Aegon Targaryen.

3) Rhaenys Targaryen

4) Viserys Targaryen.

5) Rhaella Targaryen. The Queen still being in the succession line but following her own children.

6) Robert Baratheon.

7) Stannis Baratheon.

8) Renly Baratheon.

9) (Aemon Targaryen). Assuming he gave up his oaths and was restored in his succession rights.

10) Cadet lines of Targaryen heirs.

While keeping the Baratheon siblings under close observation in King's Landing would be a wise move to avoid further rebelions, eliminating them would be one step closer to the demise of the line of Aegon V. There were already dangerously few heirs.

[Jon Targaryen]

If applied to the Targaryen line at the beginning of the War of the Usurper, the succession would look like this:

A. Aerys II Targaryen. Reigning king.

1) Rhaegar Targaryen.

2) Aegon Targaryen.

3) Rhaenys Targaryen

4) Viserys Targaryen.

5) Rhaella Targaryen. The Queen still being in the succession line but following her own children.

6) Robert Baratheon.

7) Stannis Baratheon.

8) Renly Baratheon.

9) (Aemon Targaryen). Assuming he gave up his oaths and was restored in his succession rights.

10) Cadet lines of Targaryen heirs.

While keeping the Baratheon siblings under close observation in King's Landing would be a wise move to avoid further rebelions, eliminating them would be one step closer to the demise of the line of Aegon V. There were already dangerously few heirs.

Rhaenys would come after Viserys. The Targaryen succession was modified after the Dance of Dragons so that all males came first. Hence Viserys II and not Daena succeeding to the throne.

[Roza Ahai]

Where Danenerys is here. She should come before Robert.

[sailorman]

At the beginning of the War of the Usurper, Dany wasn't born yet.

[SkyPirate]

While keeping the Baratheon siblings under close observation in King's Landing would be a wise move to avoid further rebelions, eliminating them would be one step closer to the demise of the line of Aegon V. There were already dangerously few heirs.

Yep, but that's Mad Aerys, eh? He went all paranoid at the idea of Robert being in the order of succession combined with his bethrothal to Lyanna and his Stark friendship. If he was a good little boy who lived all his life in Storm's End, Aerys would've left him alone, I think.

Roza Ahai,

Daenerys isn't on it because she's born nine months after Viserys and Rhaella fled to Dragonstone. In the meantime Robert already crowned himself king, I believe. I think this list is of the situation just before the rebellion.

Edit: whoops, beaten to it.

[Mezeh]

Rhaenys would come after Viserys. The Targaryen succession was modified after the Dance of Dragons so that all males came first. Hence Viserys II and not Daena succeeding to the throne.

It wasn’t made a low since after Maekar’s death Daeron’s daughter was passed because her been lack wit and not because of her been female.

Yet you are probably right there were a precedents and if Rhaegar died sonless the throne probably would rather pass to his brother then to his daughter.

Anyway after KL failed only two people remained between Robert and the Iron Throne.