Red Herrings

[Ned Sand]

Here's a certain red herring.

In aSoS when Arya visits Stoney Sept with the BwB, they visit a brothel. Name of the most commonly mentioned whore is "Tansy." Stoney Sept is close enough to Riverrun to maybe make her Lord Hoster's 'Tansy'. There is no earthly reason for her not to be named 'Daisy' or some such except to mislead the reader.

Go GRRM!

[Sarella]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1309782' date='Apr 11 2008, 10.53']Seems like it would take more than that. Arthur was a knight of the Kingsguard and it was wartime; the family had to know it was possible that he would die in the line of duty.

I don't think it was possible that Ashara made it to the end of the war without knowing that Ned had married. His marriage was specifically entered into to seal an anti-Targaryen alliance. This was big news and was something that the members of the alliance would have publicized (although the gossip mill would probably take care of that) in order to encourage the rebels and, perhaps, strike fear into Aerys' supporters. Ashara's family supported the Targaryens; there's no way that Arthur Dayne's sister didn't know about the alliance--and I think Arthur would have felt it his duty to let his sister know Ned had married if somehow she'd managed to miss that information.[/quote]
I'm interested to know what you think the reason for her suicide was? Or do you think she is still alive?

You are right that it couldn't be Ned's marriage that sent her over the edge. But I don't think it would be beyond Ashara to think her brother would live (he was the best knight ever, afterall), or to at least cling to the hope that he would live.

And the fact that it was her beloved Ned who killed him. That must have been hard to bear. She was distraught but couldn't even blame Ned or swear revenge against him. What was left for her?

[Lady Blackfish]

I am more willing to believe Ashara killed herself if she was somehow complicit in a few deaths. Short of that, I don't buy a suicide, its too much like something out of Sansa's stories.

Brother dead, lover dead, what was left for her? What was left for anyone else who lost loved ones in the war, family that remained, another match, the will to live, etc. JMO of course, but I've gone this long with not buying that story of her death and I'm going to stick with it until I'm humiliatingly proven wrong by the books themselves :)

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='Sarella' post='1309773' date='Apr 10 2008, 17.34'](1) What is your point here?
(2) Actually, this may be a true red herring in accordance with the OP's definition. Jaime's description of Jeyne's hips serves no purpose other than to make the reader think it isn't Jeyne (even though it is). Unless it is just a mistake on GRRM's part.
(3) What is your point here?
(4) Lady's death served many many many purposes. E.g. To show that Robert won't stand up to Cersei. That Sansa paid dearly for lying for Joffrey instead of supporting Arya. Sansa has lost her Starkness since losing Lady. But the major point of Lady's death was that Sandor could replace Lady as Sansa's wolf.
(5) I think this may be another true red herring. Syrio is dead, but we are left believing he could have escaped.
(6) How is this a red herring? She probably did commit suicide for grief over losing her brother and lover.[/quote]
(1) I like the idea that there are few or no red herrings, because it renders all the little things in the text portentious. These were some examples where hints lead to an expectation of plot events ... a high expectation, if there are few or no red herrings.
(2) Yes, any of the hints may be incidental, rather than hints or portents. Given that George knows we parse his words closely, I think it would be fair to call odd hints that turn out to have no meaning "true OP red herrings."
(3) My point about Arya: a significant portion of Arya's recent screen time showed her learning about lying - how to recognize it, how to do it convincingly. That fact, in combination with the omission of the actual killing of Dareon leads me, at least, to suspect that the omission is meaningful. If there are no red herrings, I think Dareon is probably alive, e.g. sent back to the Wall with a warning. If there are red herrings, then omitting that scene was probably just to save length and mess with us, in which case Dareon is almost certainly dead.
(4) I like the Hound/Lady replacement idea. As for losing her Starkness, I think you're right but maybe Lady's death is a symbolic representation of her losing her Starkness when she betrayed her sister and lied, both very contrary to Stark values. Thus, Sansa losing her Starkness preceded and caused Lady's death.
(5) Again, it could be an OP red herring. It's still worth hoping it's not, though -- Syrio was (is?) cool.
(6) Asharra is either a red herring in the story, i.e. her death was faked to mislead people in the story, or else she's a red herring for us the reader, because her story has received so much screen time that it seems it must be particularly significant. Maybe it's just an incidental love story, but I doubt it.

[Bormon]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1310211' date='Apr 11 2008, 07.13'](5) Again, it could be an OP red herring. It's still worth hoping it's not, though -- Syrio was (is?) cool.[/quote]

:agree: count me in the hoping column.

[Wes Garrison]

[quote name='Skywalker' post='1308270' date='Apr 9 2008, 18.55']The indentity-of-Jon-Arryn's-killer, to me, was one of the great red herrings.
When you start the saga, the question of "who killed Jon Arryn?!" is made out to be all-important. By the time I had the answer in AFFC, it no longer had much impact on the story, if any.
Of course, the event of the murder itself, and the resulting suspicion it cast in so many diretions, did push alot of plots.[/quote]

I guess this depends on how important/powerful Littlefinger really is...

How much stuff has he arranged? How much is he responsible for?

And how often has he lied to us, the reader, to make us [i]think[/i] he was the mastermind of something that he wasn't?

We know he was almost directly responsible for the death of Ned Stark, one of the most powerful men in Westeros.

Supposedly he was also responsible for the death of Jon Arryn, and Lisa Arryn, and now he "rules" the Vale as Lord Protector.

Littlefinger is the entire reason we know about this "Game of Thrones". Is he really capable of ascending further? All the way to the top?

What else has Littlefinger done?

[Wes Garrison]

Regardless of [i]who[/i] Rhaegar and Lyanna's child is, I think we can be certain that they had a child, and that that child is legitimate.

The Kingsguard only guard members of the royal family. They were guarding the Tower of Joy, where Lyanna was dying with her newborn child. (ie. "The Kingsguard do not flee..." Flee from what? Flee from their duty.)

If they were guarding the Tower, then Rhaegar must have married Lyanna. The polygamist precedent was set by Aegon the Conquerer with Rhaenys and Visenya.

And if one of them was royalty, then they both were, by the transitive property of motherhood ;) .

EDIT: Oops, wrong thread, sorry :blush:

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1310211' date='Apr 11 2008, 08.13']My point about Arya: a significant portion of Arya's recent screen time showed her learning about lying - how to recognize it, how to do it convincingly. That fact, in combination with the omission of the actual killing of Dareon leads me, at least, to suspect that the omission is meaningful. If there are no red herrings, I think Dareon is probably alive, e.g. sent back to the Wall with a warning. If there are red herrings, then omitting that scene was probably just to save length and mess with us, in which case Dareon is almost certainly dead.[/quote]

"Sent back to the Wall with a warning?" What is Dareon's thought process supposed to be here? "Gee, I was really set on never going back to the Wall and all, but when a skinny clam-vendor pulled out a knife and threatened to kill me that was enough to turn my life around?"

[Shewoman]

Sarella, I don't know whether Ashara killed herself or not. Greycox on this board suggested at one point that Ashara may have been the one who told Ned where Lyanna was (someone probably had to, unless Lyanna managed to get a letter out, and since the Daynes were Targ supporters, she might have been on hand to help her pregnant friend). If she did tell Ned, and one result of that was that Ned killed her brother, THAT might be a reason for suicide. Suiciding over Arthur's death alone doesn't strike me as realistic. He was in the KG; there was a war on; the possibility of his death wasn't all that remote.

[DocBean]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1310211' date='Apr 11 2008, 07.13'](3) My point about Arya: a significant portion of Arya's recent screen time showed her learning about lying - how to recognize it, how to do it convincingly. That fact, in combination with the omission of the actual killing of Dareon leads me, at least, to suspect that the omission is meaningful. If there are no red herrings, I think Dareon is probably alive, e.g. sent back to the Wall with a warning. If there are red herrings, then omitting that scene was probably just to save length and mess with us, in which case Dareon is almost certainly dead.[/quote]


are you kidding?

why would Dareon still be alive?
He is dead, the boots are all the proof you need. I think if anything GRRM put it in there to show that yes someone could die without it actually being shown.
I think it was his way of saying, Yes, Syrio is dead. you didn't see him die, but he is dead just the same.
Cat of the Canels telling the kindly old man that Arya of House Stark killed him was one of the best lines in the entire series.

[Jenna]

I've always wondered about the different stories about where Robert Arryn was to have been fostered. It's mentioned in AGOT. The King said Robert Arryn would be fostered at Casterly Rock, but the Vale and Walder Frey say Dragonstone. I don't recall seeing this ever resolved as to why there was a discrepency in the first place. I wonder if it will ever come to be of any significance.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='Jenna' post='1320600' date='Apr 19 2008, 12.18']I've always wondered about the different stories about where Robert Arryn was to have been fostered. It's mentioned in AGOT. The King said Robert Arryn would be fostered at Casterly Rock, but the Vale and Walder Frey say Dragonstone. I don't recall seeing this ever resolved as to why there was a discrepency in the first place. I wonder if it will ever come to be of any significance.[/quote]

Jon Arryn arranged with Stannis to have Robert fostered at Dragonstone, an attempt which helped encourage Lysa to go along with Jon's murder (because from her point of view, he was taking away her child). After Jon died and Stannis fled, King Robert, who was unaware of the prior arrangement, tried to get Robert fostered at Casterly Rock.

The significance of the discrepancy, I think, is that it points (in a way) to who really killed Jon Arryn.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1319831' date='Apr 18 2008, 17.53']Sarella, I don't know whether Ashara killed herself or not. . . . Suiciding over Arthur's death alone doesn't strike me as realistic. He was in the KG; there was a war on; the possibility of his death wasn't all that remote.[/quote]It's not just that her brother is dead. It's not just that the love of her life had killed her brother. It's also that the love of her life had married Catelyn Tully.

Those three things, IMNSHO, are sufficient to explain Ashara committing suicide.

Of course, a more-complicated explanation is still possible, but we shouldn't feel compelled to seek for one.

[back_packn]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1309782' date='Apr 10 2008, 20.53']Seems like it would take more than that.[/quote]

I really never understand this argument, every time it comes up. People commit suicide over love ALL the time in real life.

The man she's in love with shows up at her doorstep. Tells her he's sorry, but they can't be together, because he's had to marry someone he doesn't even know. Oh yeah, and this baby, yeah, he banged some random whore... you know it does get lonely out there. Oh, and by the way, here's your brother's sword. I had to kill him. Sorry about that.

Why would she possibly commit suicide?

[Roza Ahai]

[quote name='back_packn' post='1323861' date='Apr 21 2008, 22.51']I
The man she's in love with shows up at her doorstep. Tells her he's sorry, but they can't be together, because he's had to marry someone he doesn't even know. Oh yeah, and this baby, yeah, he banged some random whore... you know it does get lonely out there. Oh, and by the way, here's your brother's sword. I had to kill him. Sorry about that.[/quote]
:D And Daynes family came to conclusion what a nice guy Ned is, let's give his name "Ned" to the next baby to be born.

[Shewoman]

There's no way Ashara didn't already know Ned was married long before he showed up after war's end. That marriage, near the beginning of the war, was to seal an alliance against the Targaryens (as was Jon and Lysa's marriage), whom the Daynes supported.

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1323679' date='Apr 21 2008, 19.28']It's not just that her brother is dead. It's not just that the love of her life had killed her brother. It's also that the love of her life had married Catelyn Tully.

Those three things, IMNSHO, are sufficient to explain Ashara committing suicide.

Of course, a more-complicated explanation is still possible, but we shouldn't feel compelled to seek for one.[/quote]
What?! C'mon, everyone on this board (myself included) is compelled to seek for ever more-complicated explanations for everything! :P
[quote name='Shewoman']There's no way Ashara didn't already know Ned was married long before he showed up after war's end. That marriage, near the beginning of the war, was to seal an alliance against the Targaryens (as was Jon and Lysa's marriage), whom the Daynes supported.[/quote]
I agree! I don't really buy the "official" version of the story that Ashara killed herself over love. One good reason, imho, is what you say above. She would have known about Ned marrying Catelyn in the beginning of the Rebellion so why wait until after the end of the war to commit suicide? It's yet another thing that doesn't really add up.

Of course, I have a theory on this as well ;) I think Ashara committed suicide because the plan to fulfill the prophecy and "save the world" was in ruins and resulted in so much tragedy. Personally, I think Lyanna did die as result of complications while birthing Jon at the ToJ but baby Jon was not there when Ned and company showed up. Thus, someone had to have taken off with the baby (presumably to protect him from "Rebel forces", etc.) and my candidate for this is Ashara. I think she was taking baby Jon to Starfall to keep him secret and safe.

Then, after defeating the KG and talking with Lyanna at the ToJ, Ned and Howland went to Starfall to retrieve/rescue (depending on how you look at it) Jon. Hell, this could even be when Ashara learned that all their efforts to fulfill the prohecy were a colossal failure because Elia and her children were dead, Rhaegar was dead, Lyanna was dead, Arthur was dead, etc.

From Ashara's point of view, if she truly did believe in the prophecy, they all failed and the world was doomed without the Three Heads of the Dragon, PtwP, etc., and think this could provide motivation to commit suicide. Especially when you add all the tragic deaths to the mix, as well.

From Ned's point of view, he would be looking at things more from the perspective that "alright, this insanity ends here." I'm sure he had to tell the Daynes that Lyanna's dying wish was for him to protect the baby from Robert (and maybe even from those who would use the boy to fulfill some crazy prophecy but that's not necessary). Also, think about the position Ma and Pa Dayne were put in by all this. I mean, either they were in on the plan to fulfill the prophecy from the beginning or they didn't know what their kids were up to until later. Either way, they would be put in a very bad light if the sordid details became widely known (not to mention that King Robert might pull a "Rains of Castamere" on them for their possible involvement in Lyanna's death). No, they had all the reason in the world to go along with and even help Ned to keep everything as secret as possible. This is why I think the Daynes may have looked positively on Ned - he didn't spill the beans on them or seem to hold anything against them. From the few snippets we get of Ned thinking/dreaming about this I think he looked on it more as a heart-breaking tragedy all the way around rather than placing a lot of blame and being angry.

This is all rather flimsy, I know, but it's kinda what I think for now ;)

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1324633' date='Apr 22 2008, 11.07']From Ashara's point of view, if she truly did believe in the prophecy, they all failed and the world was doomed without the Three Heads of the Dragon, PtwP, etc., and think this could provide motivation to commit suicide. Especially when you add all the tragic deaths to the mix, as well.[/quote]

That's where the tragedy in this situation is, IMO, in the full scale loss it caused the land at large, assumably all in effort to save it in the first place (the prophecy).

People might kill themselves for love, but for the kind of love that comes from meeting someone for two weeks and then having sporadic communication with them at best over the next two years? That's enough for suicide? Even if you throw in the fact that Ned killed her brother, I think it would take a feeling of some personal culpability for it to lead to suicide. She would otherwise have to be a very lonely person, IMO, which technically could've been, we don't know her at all so we can't say either way. But like I said before, the story that is told about her death around Westeros sounds too much like one of Sansa's songs for me to buy it right now. We have seen how the events that unfold before our own eyes get distorted into juicier versions of the story as the news spreads to other parts of the realm, I just don't count out that this was one of those deals.

[size=1]Of course I've always wanted her to turn up alive :P[/size]

[Shewoman]

Prince of the North, you may be right about the reason for Ashara's supposed suicide. It makes more sense than Arthur's death being the cause.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1324349' date='Apr 22 2008, 09.16']There's no way Ashara didn't already know Ned was married long before he showed up after war's end.[/quote]Of course she'd heard. Sometimes, though, it's not real until you see the person.

One explanation for Ashara not jumping earlier is that she kept nursing the hope that some part of her love with Ned could survive. It wasn't until she actually saw him that she truly believed it was over.

Another explanation is that seeing Arthur's body made Ned's killing him real for her. Or, perhaps she didn't know that Ned was the one who killed him.

Plus, Ned's not exactly the most sensitive, comforting man in the world. He would have rebuffed Ashara if she had tried to continue the love affair.

[indent]Ashara: [i]Oh, Ned! They told me such awful things. They said Arthur was dead. They said that you had married some Tully girl. But, it'll be all right now that you're here. Hold me, Ned!"[/i]

Eddard the Upright: [i]I cannot hold you; it would be improper. I have a wife now. Oh, and by the way, I killed Arthur.[/i]

Ashara: [i]My life is over![/i] (runs to top of Starfall and hurls herself off)[/indent]

But, y'all go knock yourselves out. I'm enjoying your theories.