Red Herrings

[AvengingAryaFan]

A brief digression back to another possible red herring:
[quote name='DocBean' post='1319840' date='Apr 18 2008, 15.07']are you kidding?

why would Dareon still be alive?
He is dead, the boots are all the proof you need. I think if anything GRRM put it in there to show that yes someone could die without it actually being shown.
I think it was his way of saying, Yes, Syrio is dead. you didn't see him die, but he is dead just the same.
Cat of the Canels telling the kindly old man that Arya of House Stark killed him was one of the best lines in the entire series.[/quote]
Well, you and TFM may mock me all you want. I agree that the boots are evidence that Dareon is dead, and also agree that my alternative explanation is pretty weak (what would Dareon think, indeed? but after all, it was just an off-hand example of a possible alternative).

However, if this is another instance of killing by Arya, it is a) the least necessary to her survival and the least passionate, and b) the first not shown on screen. (a) may simply indicate she is becoming ever more cold-blooded, and (b) may just be editing efficiency and/or authorial teasing. But c) the emphasis on lying is entwined with this event somehow. a+b+c make me suspicious, at least, and particularly so if there are no "red herrings."

I'm hedging my bets, because Dareon being dead seems on balance more likely, but if Dareon turns up alive you'll be more surprised than I will.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1326036' date='Apr 23 2008, 04.19']I'm hedging my bets, because Dareon being dead seems on balance more likely, but if Dareon turns up alive you'll be more surprised than I will.[/quote]

What would be the point, dramatically, of holding off on the relevation that Dareon was alive?

[Black Wizard]

I don't think keeping Daeron alive serves much purpose for the story, he didn't seem like much of an important character.

[DocBean]

This one may have already been discussed, but I believe the "Giant" doll of Robert Arryns that Sansa rips the head off of is a Red Herring.

Remember the Prophecy from the Ghost of High Hill that some maid (sansa) will kill a giant in a castle made of snow?
we'll i think that literal castle of snow, and the Giant Doll crushing the castle was thrown into an important scene as a way to throw the reader off, and as a way to foreshadow Sansa killing Littlefinger, or Tyrion, or Hodor or someone in Winterfell.

i'm really hoping it's not Hodor. =)



Tansy the whore was a good one too.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1326181' date='Apr 23 2008, 05.43']What would be the point, dramatically, of holding off on the relevation that Dareon was alive?[/quote]
Good question, but extend it a bit: what is the point of Dareon at all?

Plotwise, Dareon seems unimportant (to give Sam a chance to get mad?), so his most significant purpose is as a foil to demonstrate Arya's character development. Their interaction at least teaches us about Arya's willingness to kill ... but that begs the question of exactly what the lesson is.

As I acknowledge, the obvious lesson is that Arya is even more cavalier about killing than we thought. That's useful if she's to exterminate the Freys, as I hope, and consistent with the revulsion expressed to her by the ghost or dwarf woman. Pretty convincing.

But a different lesson could help flesh out the arc of the Stark family story. George seems bent on making the Starks appear a wholly lost cause (hopefully to make their eventual triumph sweeter). As the disillusioned posters accusing her of sociopathy demonstrate, Arya appeared blacker, making the Stark star dimmer, when she killed Dareon. But if Dareon later turned up alive, Arya would get double-barreled rehabilitation: the reader finds she was less heartless than they feared, and more clever than they thought.

So I think it can go either way. It would certainly be of interest to Jon if Dareon finally reappeared at the Wall, telling him of an Arya Stark ... but yes, given Dareon's vehement rejection of the NW, his "marrying" the whore, etc., all the alternatives seem unlikely. So, the Dareon subplot is probably no more than it appears on its face.

[DocBean]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1327524' date='Apr 23 2008, 22.06']Good question, but extend it a bit: what is the point of Dareon at all?

Plotwise, Dareon seems unimportant (to give Sam a chance to get mad?), so his most significant purpose is as a foil to demonstrate Arya's character development. Their interaction at least teaches us about Arya's willingness to kill ... but that begs the question of exactly what the lesson is.

As I acknowledge, the obvious lesson is that Arya is even more cavalier about killing than we thought. That's useful if she's to exterminate the Freys, as I hope, and consistent with the revulsion expressed to her by the ghost or dwarf woman. Pretty convincing.

But a different lesson could help flesh out the arc of the Stark family story. George seems bent on making the Starks appear a wholly lost cause (hopefully to make their eventual triumph sweeter). As the disillusioned posters accusing her of sociopathy demonstrate, Arya appeared blacker, making the Stark star dimmer, when she killed Dareon. But if Dareon later turned up alive, Arya would get double-barreled rehabilitation: the reader finds she was less heartless than they feared, and more clever than they thought.

So I think it can go either way. It would certainly be of interest to Jon if Dareon finally reappeared at the Wall, telling him of an Arya Stark ... but yes, given Dareon's vehement rejection of the NW, his "marrying" the whore, etc., all the alternatives seem unlikely. So, the Dareon subplot is probably no more than it appears on its face.[/quote]

I never read that scene thinking Wow, Arya is now a cold-blooded killer. I read it thinking, wow, Arya is still Arya Stark.
Any Stark would kill a deserter of the Night's Watch, hell, the first two chapters in the book let us see how important the Night's Watch is, and how the Starks deal with Deserters.

I think she believes that the Kindly Old Man expects her to kill, she sees someone that must die, and figures it's her job to kill him, as a Stark and as an Assassin for the FM.
I would be truely disapppointed if she really became Cat of the Canels and forgets who Arya Stark is, I really don't think she ever will, and I hope she doesn't.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1328116' date='Apr 24 2008, 08.56']I never read that scene thinking Wow, Arya is now a cold-blooded killer. I read it thinking, wow, Arya is still Arya Stark.
...[/quote]
That was my initial take on it. However, I found myself constantly arguing against posters who thought she'd become a sociopath. Of course, you could just mean that you had long been of the opinion that Arya was a sociopath, but I'm assuming not.

Arya was always fiercely opposed to injustice (e.g., Mycah; and Gregor et al. went on her 'list' by their treatment of the villagers that she witnessed); and she was compassionate to those she hadn't seen do evil (water for the ?Lannisters in cages in Stony Sept?, trying to save the crying girl and Lommy, and saving the chained men including Jaqen H'ghar- and of those people, only Mycah was a particular friends of hers, so her compassion wasn't tainted by being indirectly for herself.

I don't disagree with you; the Starks have been "enforcers" of NW vows forever. Still, so many posters were just appalled by her killing Dareon that I had to conclude that objectively, that act has made Arya less sympathetic for a lot of readers.

It was really only after seeing the impact the Dareon killing had that I began to wonder about the circumstances, which as I noted are suspicious.

Either answer works for me, just in different ways. But I'm confident she'll remain Arya Stark. In fact, this action, whichever way it goes, may be intended to get the KOM to accelerate her training ... and if so, it seems to have worked, assuming the blindness is a training technique.

But I fear I've hijacked this thread by beating these few little potential red herrings too long and hard.

[Roza Ahai]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1319840' date='Apr 18 2008, 18.07']He is dead, the boots are all the proof you need.[/quote]
Daryon could just simply throw boots away. Black boots reminded him of the NW, his duty. So, this is not good proof.

[alguien]

[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1330499' date='Apr 26 2008, 12.18']Daryon could just simply throw boots away. Black boots reminded him of the NW, his duty. So, this is not good proof.[/quote]

How about her testimony stating she killed him? Why would Arya lie about that?

[Roza Ahai]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1330585' date='Apr 26 2008, 13.18']How about her testimony stating she killed him? Why would Arya lie about that?[/quote]
Theon also stated that he killed Ned's children. Arya could lie just to check her own abilities whether she is able to cheat Faceless men. The Kind Man taught her to lie, probably she achieved some success. I need more proofs to be sure that Arya killed Dareon.

[alguien]

[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1330648' date='Apr 26 2008, 15.56']Theon also stated that he killed Ned's children. Arya could lie just to check her own abilities whether she is able to cheat Faceless men. The Kind Man taught her to lie, probably she achieved some success. I need more proofs to be sure that Arya killed Dareon.[/quote]

Yeah, but why? Theon had motivation to fake the deaths of Bran and Rickon. What motivation does Arya have? Being able to prove she can lie to them doesn't make sense IMO, especially since she's also trying to prove to them that she is no longer Arya Stark, but then admits to being so.

Daeron's dead. Its not like Arya is squeamish about killing, and in her eyes, he broke his sacred vow to the NW, which makes his life forfeit. The scene is set up quite nicely.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1331032' date='Apr 26 2008, 23.02']...
Daeron's dead. Its not like Arya is squeamish about killing, and in her eyes, he broke his sacred vow to the NW, which makes his life forfeit. The scene is set up quite nicely.[/quote]
The scene IS set up quite nicely, isn't it? GRRM was just saving pages by not showing us Arya actually taking Dareon's life, right? But notice, Sandor Clegane was clearly dying, and the Quiet Isle septon said quite firmly "that man is dead, I buried him myself." That scene was set up rather well too, wasn't it? And now that gravedigger is suspiciously big ... Why go to all the trouble to set up a scene nicely, and then not show an important death? (This one's important not because of Dareon, but because of Arya.)

Thus, either Dareon isn't dead, or else all that setup, in combination with the omitted graphic details such as the slit throat and the splash as he went into the canal, constitutes a red herring. That's probably what this is, but there don't seem to have been many definite red herrings.

[Sandor's_Mandy1]

[quote name='JoannaL' post='1300798' date='Apr 4 2008, 09.39']Well, a dragon is a dragon and not a horse. You could perhaps argue that it is Dany... but Dany is no stallion

No, IMHO 'the stallion that mounts the world' died unborn and is out of the story[/quote]

I personally think that the stallion is metaphorical. You ride a stallion as you ride a dragon, correct? It could just be that "stallion" is interchangable with "dragon" in this context. The Dothraki culture just happens to ride stallions as another culture may ride camels. Dany just happens to ride dragons. And a dragon could certainly "mount the world" as they fly. This is all just IMHO though. :)

[alguien]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1331056' date='Apr 27 2008, 02.54']The scene IS set up quite nicely, isn't it? GRRM was just saving pages by not showing us Arya actually taking Dareon's life, right? But notice, Sandor Clegane was clearly dying, and the Quiet Isle septon said quite firmly "that man is dead, I buried him myself." That scene was set up rather well too, wasn't it? And now that gravedigger is suspiciously big ... Why go to all the trouble to set up a scene nicely, and then not show an important death? (This one's important not because of Dareon, but because of Arya.)

Thus, either Dareon isn't dead, or else all that setup, in combination with the omitted graphic details such as the slit throat and the splash as he went into the canal, constitutes a red herring. That's probably what this is, but there don't seem to have been many definite red herrings.[/quote]

There are at least two big differences in your example and Arya killing Dareon.

A. Sandor Clegane is much more important than Dareon. B. The gravedigger provides direct evidence that he's alive. In Dareon's case we just have no complete ultimate proof that he's dead. Big difference there. C. How did Arya get his boots? (and please, holding him up would be just ludicrous)

Finally, if she did kill him, then it certainly doesn't have to be a red herring. Why can't it be a stylistic choice? In fact, using this sense of drama, and letting the reader's imagination do the work for them is quite a common technique. When you read it you go, Ok, what just happened? Did she just kill guy? Then the dramatic confession at the end confirms it.

No red herring. Dareon's dead. And its a matter of style. Quite simple, really.

[Roza Ahai]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1331032' date='Apr 27 2008, 02.02']Yeah, but why? Theon had motivation to fake the deaths of Bran and Rickon. What motivation does Arya have? Being able to prove she can lie to them doesn't make sense IMO, especially since she's also trying to prove to them that she is no longer Arya Stark, but then admits to being so.

Daeron's dead. Its not like Arya is squeamish about killing, and in her eyes, he broke his sacred vow to the NW, which makes his life forfeit. The scene is set up quite nicely.[/quote]
To become Faceless woman or just simply to learn faceless abilities? :uhoh: She is definitely willing to learn changing her face. It is a kind of test. Faceless men are teaching her to keep her emotions when she lies. And if they say to her that she lies, that means she did not improve her abilities. Arya is actually in the learning process, and if she failed to prove herself and to Faceless men that she is not Arya anymore, IMO it is OK, she needs to study further.
[quote name='Nadie' post='1331032' date='Apr 27 2008, 02.02']Daeron's dead.[/quote] He is probably dead, but [u]I[/u] need more proofs. It is like Azor Ahai. Many people persuade me that Dany is Azor Ahai, but i am not so sure. There are more possibilities. I beleive in something that is pretty well proved.
And i don't think that Arya is sociopath. She saved Sam's life just a few hours before "Daeron's murder".

[alguien]

[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1331220' date='Apr 27 2008, 11.49']To become Faceless woman or just simply to learn faceless abilities? :uhoh: She is definitely willing to learn changing her face. It is a kind of test. Faceless men are teaching her to keep her emotions when she lies. And if they say to her that she lies, that means she did not improve her abilities. Arya is actually in the learning process, and if she failed to prove herself and to Faceless men that she is not Arya anymore, IMO it is OK, she needs to study further.[/quote]

No. It sets the scene quite nicely that she's still Arya Stark. She dealt out justice in the Northern sense of the word. She's not trying to prove herself by lying. She's admitting to the Kindly man that she killed Dareon. My point was that if she was trying to improve her lying ability and impress them, she wouldn't also admit to being Arya. That's at cross purposes.

[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1331220' date='Apr 27 2008, 11.49']He is probably dead, but [u]I[/u] need more proofs. It is like Azor Ahai. Many people persuade me that Dany is Azor Ahai, but i am not so sure. There are more possibilities. I beleive in something that is pretty well proved.
And i don't think that Arya is sociopath. She saved Sam's life just a few hours before "Daeron's murder".[/quote]

I never argued that Arya was a sociopath. Although I do see some parallels between her and Alia Atreides (or St. Alia of the Knife), overall I think she's still a Stark. But if you still need more proof than Daeron's death, the boots, Arya's testimony, the Old Man's acceptance, and Daeron not appearing at all in the books anymore, than I don't know to say. I guess you think Jimmy Hoffa is still alive too. :unsure:

[Roza Ahai]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1331268' date='Apr 27 2008, 13.08']No. It sets the scene quite nicely that she's still Arya Stark. She dealt out justice in the Northern sense of the word. She's not trying to prove herself by lying. She's admitting to the Kindly man that she killed Dareon. My point was that if she was trying to improve her lying ability and impress them, she wouldn't also admit to being Arya. That's at cross purposes.[/quote] No. She did no say "I killed Dareon", she told as a 3rd person, as Nobody, "Arya Stark did this". Arya was curious about the reaction of the Kindly man when she was going to tell him these words.


[quote name='Nadie' post='1331268' date='Apr 27 2008, 13.08']Jimmy Hoffa is still alive too. :unsure:[/quote] Who is this? :)
I totally agree with your own words:
[quote]In Dareon's case we just have no complete ultimate proof that he's dead.[/quote]

[lordofthesox]

[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1331220' date='Apr 27 2008, 10.49']He is probably dead, but [u]I[/u] need more proofs. It is like Azor Ahai. Many people persuade me that Dany is Azor Ahai, but i am not so sure. There are more possibilities. I beleive in something that is pretty well proved.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with reserving a small doubt for something that's not fully proven, and it doesn't hurt to entertain alternate theories, but if most of the evidence is pointing towards Dareon being dead, then it's probably better to move forward with the assumption that he's gone until it's proven that he's not.

You can always find reason for a small doubt, but sometimes it can just be a result of overanalysis. Remember that Martin probably didn't even think Dareon's death through as much as you have at this point, he probably never expected this interpretation from readers, so he had no reason to prove it wrong. Therefore, I don't think it's a red herring.

Assuming Dareon is still alive, we'll see him show up as a singer in some tavern in book 7, and then we realize that Arya was not a cold-blooded killer after all. I don't see what point that would serve. His death serves a much greater purpose in her training and to show that she'll never forget Arya Stark. Martin didn't show it in the book in order to create drama and a little bit of surprise when Arya confessed. Also it helps to show how simple and routine killing has become to Arya that he doesn't even bother to show the scene.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

RA:

But, again, what's the dramatic upshot if Daeron is alive? It's an anticlimactic revelation without a payoff, and nobody has been able to propose one.

(speaking of which)

AAF:

That wouldn't work at all, though, any more than it would work if Lady Stoneheart just changed her mind about hanging Brienne and then let them off with a warning. "Ha ha, just kidding" is not a satisfying resolution.

[alguien]

[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1331288' date='Apr 27 2008, 13.33']No. She did no say "I killed Dareon", she told as a 3rd person, as Nobody, "Arya Stark did this". Arya was curious about the reaction of the Kindly man when she was going to tell him these words.[/quote]

Okay...but she is Arya Stark. So, in effect, she's saying, "I killed Daeron as Arya Stark." If she was merely curious about what his reaction would be to the fact that Arya Stark was alive and well, then why wouldn't she just say "I'm still Arya." Why lie about a murder? Why is she curious? There's no evidence of this, no motivation.

[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1331288' date='Apr 27 2008, 13.33']Who is this? :)
I totally agree with your own words:[/quote]

He was a very crooked politician/union guy who disappeared in the US decades ago. Its pretty much assumed that he's dead and someone took a hit out on him, but no one ever found the body.

Also, I agree with the Fatman's point. Where's the payoff if Daeron is still alive? What's the point? Dramatically, story-wise, it works better if Arya killed him.