Red Herrings

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1306023' date='Apr 8 2008, 11.46']Those "shades" might just be a wildling superstition.[/quote]
Probably, yes. The word means ghosts. What they can't possibly be is Others or Wights.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1304931' date='Apr 7 2008, 17.27']I thought moon tea was to prevent pregnancy and tansy was to end pregnancy.[/quote]Hmmm. Yes, could be. I hadn't picked up a distinction. I'm not sure if moon tea is drunk before, right after, or long after the sex. Perhaps I erred above. To restate:[indent]Later, we inferred that the herb Tansy is used to end pregnancies. Later, we also learned of a drink called moon tea, which is used against pregnancy. [/indent]One other reference to this is that Tyrion notes in aCoK that GM Pycelle has Tansy on hand. Later, we learn that he brewed moon tea, though there is no reference to whether Tansy is in it.

What I'm more interested in is what was in that posset that Sybil Spicer was feeding Jeyne Westerling Stark every morning in aSoS. Honey and herbs, to be sure, but which?

[Shewoman]

My understanding is that one drinks moon tea to prevent conception. If this doesn't work, then tansy is used to abort.

I'm sure the drink Sybil was giving Jeyne was moon tea, since we never hear that Jeyne has gotten pregnant (in which case tansy would be used). If she had a child, many people would assume (and probably rightly) that it was Robb's--in which case the child would have a claim to the North through its father and grandfather and beyond. Not what Tywin wanted. Preventing conception would probably be easier than ending a pregnancy; Jeyne would want that child.

[Sarella]

I don't understand the Ser Hugh dilemma. Eddard was on his way to finding out about the incest. He had a book and a bastard, but was yet to make a connection. Ser Hugh was Arryn's squire and could have shed some light on the issue for Ned. Ned knew this and sent Jory to talk to him (at Petyr's suggestion). But Hugh refused to talk to Jory. Before Ned could speak to Hugh himself, he was killed by a Lannister pawn, setting back Ned's investigation into the incest. It seems to me that Cersei had Gregor kill him so he wouldn't talk to Ned. Where is the red herring?

Tyrion's dreams of riding a dragon were NOT a red herring. It is pretty obvious he will (1) play a key part in training the dragons (from the books he's read) and because he is small enough to ride them, (2) make unusual saddles so they can be ridden (like he's made for himself and Bran), (3) be the one who convinces Dany to go to the wall (from visiting the wall early in the series and Mormont impressing upon him their need).

The gravedigger is NOT a red herring. A man bigger than Brienne, with a limp, who kneels down and pets Dog, at the Quiet Isle (close to where Arya left Sandor), and Stranger is in the stables. Come on, people.

Edric Dayne's eyes are NOT a red herring. It is common knowledge that a common Dayne trait is purple eyes.

Darkstar may be a red herring, but only to the casual reader. He is too old to fool any of us.

The Stallion Who Mounts the World is NOT a red herring. It is Dany. She is Dothraki (stallion) by marriage. She is called Khaleesi, she wears bells in her hair, she has bloodriders, she wears a painted vest, she leads a khalasar. She is more than enough of a Dothraki (stallion) to meet the prophesy. Read it again and you will see that the crone stares pointedly at Dany while saying the prophesy. It is like The Dragon Reborn/The Coramoor/The Chief of Chiefs in Wheel of Time. Every culture has its own version but it all refers to the same person.

ETA: With the versions in asoiaf being The Stallion Who Mounts The World, The Prince That Was Promised and Azor Ahai Reborn.

[alguien]

[quote name='Sarella' post='1306942' date='Apr 8 2008, 20.55']I don't understand the Ser Hugh dilemma. Eddard was on his way to finding out about the incest. He had a book and a bastard, but was yet to make a connection. Ser Hugh was Arryn's squire and could have shed some light on the issue for Ned. Ned knew this and sent Jory to talk to him (at Petyr's suggestion). But Hugh refused to talk to Jory. Before Ned could speak to Hugh himself, he was killed by a Lannister pawn, setting back Ned's investigation into the incest. It seems to me that Cersei had Gregor kill him so he wouldn't talk to Ned. Where is the red herring?

Tyrion's dreams of riding a dragon were NOT a red herring. It is pretty obvious he will (1) play a key part in training the dragons (from the books he's read) and because he is small enough to ride them, (2) make unusual saddles so they can be ridden (like he's made for himself and Bran), (3) be the one who convinces Dany to go to the wall (from visiting the wall early in the series and Mormont impressing upon him their need).

The gravedigger is NOT a red herring. A man bigger than Brienne, with a limp, who kneels down and pets Dog, at the Quiet Isle (close to where Arya left Sandor), and Stranger is in the stables. Come on, people.

Edric Dayne's eyes are NOT a red herring. It is common knowledge that a common Dayne trait is purple eyes.

Darkstar may be a red herring, but only to the casual reader. He is too old to fool any of us.

The Stallion Who Mounts the World is NOT a red herring. It is Dany. She is Dothraki (stallion) by marriage. She is called Khaleesi, she wears bells in her hair, she has bloodriders, she wears a painted vest, she leads a khalasar. She is more than enough of a Dothraki (stallion) to meet the prophesy. Read it again and you will see that the crone stares pointedly at Dany while saying the prophesy. It is like The Dragon Reborn/The Coramoor/The Chief of Chiefs in Wheel of Time. Every culture has its own version but it all refers to the same person.

ETA: With the versions in asoiaf being The Stallion Who Mounts The World, The Prince That Was Promised and Azor Ahai Reborn.[/quote]

I think if you check the original post it was to list possible red herrings, not ones for sure. The original poster didn't think that the gravedigger was a red herring.

As for Edric Dayne, here's the description:

"...but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey."

Perhaps all Daynes have blond hair and purple eyes, but at the time the reader doesn't know that. Given that Dany is always described so, it could most definitely be a red herring, meant to give suspicion that he could be a hidden Targaryen, before revealing that he's a Dayne.

[Sarella]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1307041' date='Apr 9 2008, 13.17']I think if you check the original post it was to list possible red herrings, not ones for sure. The original poster didn't think that the gravedigger was a red herring.[/quote]
I was responding to various posts that I just read in the thread by giving my opinion that certain examples suggested by others as possible red herrings are not.

[quote]Perhaps all Daynes have blond hair and purple eyes, but at the time the reader doesn't know that.[/quote]
I would hope they would know that Ashara was fair with violet eyes because it is mentioned at least twice before Edric is introduced. Once when Catelyn thinks about Jon's mother, and once when Meera tells Bran the story of TKotLT.

By the OP's definition, a "Red Herring" is something that GRRM put into the story with no other purpose but to get us the reader to think that it is something more that it is.

If the only purpose of Edric Dayne's physical description was to make us think he is Aegon, GRRM wouldn't have mentioned Ashara's looks at all, and would have made Edric older. As it is, he is immediately ruled out as Aegon (or any Targaryen) for being too young. His looks are easily explained as being family traits because his Aunt had the same looks.

I would think that any reader who is thinking about things enough to decide that Aegon could still be alive (despite being told his head was dashed) is surely thinking enough to realize that Edric can't be Aegon due to age.

I think the main purpose of Edric's looks is not to make us think he is Aegon, but is (1) to describe the Dayne look, just as every other major House's look has been described, and (2) to shed a little light on the SDASJ (Stark and Dayne Alliance for the Safety of Jon. I.e. if Jon showed any Targ characteristics as he grew, they could be explained away as Ashara's Daynish traits.

[alguien]

[quote name='Sarella' post='1307157' date='Apr 9 2008, 00.56']I was responding to various posts that I just read in the thread by giving my opinion that certain examples suggested by others as possible red herrings are not.


I would hope they would know that Ashara was fair with violet eyes because it is mentioned at least twice before Edric is introduced. Once when Catelyn thinks about Jon's mother, and once when Meera tells Bran the story of TKotLT.

By the OP's definition, a "Red Herring" is something that GRRM put into the story with no other purpose but to get us the reader to think that it is something more that it is.

If the only purpose of Edric Dayne's physical description was to make us think he is Aegon, GRRM wouldn't have mentioned Ashara's looks at all, and would have made Edric older. As it is, he is immediately ruled out as Aegon (or any Targaryen) for being too young. His looks are easily explained as being family traits because his Aunt had the same looks.

I would think that any reader who is thinking about things enough to decide that Aegon could still be alive (despite being told his head was dashed) is surely thinking enough to realize that Edric can't be Aegon due to age.

I think the main purpose of Edric's looks is not to make us think he is Aegon, but is (1) to describe the Dayne look, just as every other major House's look has been described, and (2) to shed a little light on the SDASJ (Stark and Dayne Alliance for the Safety of Jon. I.e. if Jon showed any Targ characteristics as he grew, they could be explained away as Ashara's Daynish traits.[/quote]

My first thought after reading it was "blond hair and purple eyes? is this kid a Targaryen or something?" I didn't remember his age at the time, nor did I think he might be Aegon, having never really given much thought to the Aegon is alive theory at that point. That's why I thought it was a possible red herring. Its not inconceivable that GRRM would throw that in with the dual purpose of adding confusion and describing the Daynes. (besides, was [u]blond[/u] hair and purple eyes a Dayne trait, I thought it was just purple eyes?)

[Bormon]

Is Gendry a Red Herring? The mystery of what was happening at court seemed to originally revolve around him, yet it has turned out that he hasn't had any affect to the plot line, except to accompany Arya on occasion.

I kept expecting more to come out of it, but nothing ever did.

[Zoë Sumra]

Gendry's a wonderful example. He, as much as Jon, fits the fantasy archetype of a royal bastard being raised in ignorance of his parentage who might rise to a greater standing later. More than - Gendry's had further to rise. :) Also, we know he's a royal bastard, while we're still speculating re. Jon! But again, like you say, he's not done much so far.

[SkyPirate]

[quote name='Bormon' post='1307475' date='Apr 9 2008, 16.11']Is Gendry a Red Herring? The mystery of what was happening at court seemed to originally revolve around him, yet it has turned out that he hasn't had any affect to the plot line, except to accompany Arya on occasion.

I kept expecting more to come out of it, but nothing ever did.[/quote]

I think he might be. I know he's a royal bastard but he's baseborn and hasn't had a scrap of education (save his blacksmith education) so expecting him to rise as far as the Lord of Storm's End (as some people do) is completely ludicrous. William the Conquerer was a bastard yes, but he was also well educated and seen as his father's heir from the beginning (as his father didn't have any other children). The only real connection to the story in practical terms would be his semi-friendship with Arya. I don't see much coming from the fact that Gendry is Robert's son.

[Summer the Direwolf]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1306089' date='Apr 8 2008, 19.09']Probably, yes. The word means ghosts. What they can't possibly be is Others or Wights.[/quote]

In AFfC, Thoros says "A grimmer shadow leads us now.", referring to lady Stoneheart. So Ygritte´s shades could simply mean "things from beyond the grave". It´s possible that Mance opened some magically sealed barrows of old and the Others then used the bodies to enlarge their army. I imagine it´s fairly hard to find a decent corpse for reviving purposes beyond the Wall - the wildlings usually burn their dead. A necropolis would therefore be a vital ([i]sic[/i]) boost to the undead ranks.


[quote name='SkyPirate' post='1307719' date='Apr 9 2008, 18.45']I don't see much coming from the fact that Gendry is Robert's son.[/quote]

His king´s blood may yet be an issue, if he happens to travel North. I can see him going to Dreadfort, trying to rescue Arya (either of his own will, leaving BwB, or with Brienne at UnCat´s bidding). They don´t know that Ramsay´s Arya is a fake one, do they? Nevertheless, while in the North, Gendry may fall into Melisandre´s clutches, and then... :stunned:  

[Shewoman]

My crackpot theory is that eventually Arya and Gendry will hook up, thus providing the Stark-Targaryen marriage that Robert and Ned planned for Sansa and Joffrey.

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1307817' date='Apr 9 2008, 18.48']My crackpot theory is that eventually Arya and Gendry will hook up, thus providing the Stark-Targaryen marriage that Robert and Ned planned for Sansa and Joffrey.[/quote]
Did you mean Stark-[b]Baratheon[/b]? I see no Targs...

[Bormon]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1307817' date='Apr 9 2008, 12.48']My crackpot theory is that eventually Arya and Gendry will hook up, thus providing the Stark-Targaryen marriage that Robert and Ned planned for Sansa and Joffrey.[/quote]


My theory too is that they hook up eventually.

Although, I am not even sure who is left who even knows that Gendry is Robert's bastard son. Cersie might (as was implied by the fact that Red Cloaks were searching for him) but I doubt she would reveal that info just in case it may further cloud the issue of the true heirs.

In fact! does Gendry even know? I can't recall if he found out or not.

[Black Wizard]

Brienne was about to tell him before Biter popped up.

[Bormon]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1308011' date='Apr 9 2008, 15.51']Brienne was about to tell him before Biter popped up.[/quote]


Ok, so Brienne knows.... (don't remember when she found out either....jeez may be time for a re-read)

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='Bormon' post='1308028' date='Apr 9 2008, 21.02']Ok, so Brienne knows.... (don't remember when she found out either....jeez may be time for a re-read)[/quote]
Well it was quite obvious for someone who'd spent a long time ogling Renly, and it was well known that Renly and Robert looked very similar (well, before Robert turned into a fat shite).

[SkyPirate]

Varys also knows, but I doubt that he cares... He was the one who sent Gendry to the blacksmith, if I'm not mistaken but he also made him go with Yoren to the Wall to become a crow.

[Black Wizard]

He probably sent Gendry away with Yoren because he knew that Cersei would eliminate him once Robert had been dealth with.

[SkyPirate]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1308051' date='Apr 9 2008, 22.22']He probably sent Gendry away with Yoren because he knew that Cersei would eliminate him once Robert had been dealth with.[/quote]
Yes, but it also shows that he didn't have any plans for Gendry in the game of thrones.