Is Syrio dead?

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='LordNedsHead' post='1757962' date='Apr 16 2009, 23.12']Old topic here, but my absolute fave topic ever so I have to throw my two cents in. Syrio's my favorite character in the series bar none so I'm of course gonna take his side and do my best to prove he is alive.
Here is the scenario as I have always seen it. Syrio is clearly the superior swordsman in the room when Meryn Trant and his goons arrive. He dispatches the underlings without breaking a sweat. Then we get to the bit about Arya seeing with her eyes and viewing Syrio with a wooden sword against a fully armed knight of the King's Guard. This is the point where I hope I can read into Martin's writing style enough to see through the smokescreen.
George is fond of stating that certain PoVs are flawed povs meaning that he often intentionally misleads the reader by using the flawed perceptions of the pov character to throw us off from what really occured. In a car accident there are at least three points of view. What I saw happen. What the person who hit me saw happen. And what really happened. Its much the same with the citizens of Westeros. I've seen GRRM warn us not to take what a certain character saw as unrefutable proof of what really occured numerous times.
So, knowing this, when I read that chapter I see it through my own eyes instead of Arya's. Yes she is trying to view the scene as Syrio has instructed her, but she is still very much a student. There are other places in the books where she attempts to take in everything happening around her and falls short. She sees the wooden sword, and Ser Meryn's armor, but she fails to notice the weapons of the fallen Lannister guardsmen. We learn in following books that Trant is revealed to be quite a bit overrated for a member of the King's Guard. Cersei even mentions that he had trouble with Arya's "dancing instructor" in ACoK. With steel from a fallen foe in his hands I estimate that Syro would be at least an even match against Trant. Armor helps protect against blows for certain, but by no means is it a complete fail safe. I cite Bronn/Vardis and Gregor/Red Viper as examples. Add to this that as a waterdancer, Syrio's piercing style gives him and additional advantage over an armored foe as he's more capable of scoring hits in the seams of the plate.
Syrio says that he won't run, but he never specifically says that he has to kill Trant. He could have easily incapacitated him. As quick as he was, all Syrio would have to do would be to trip Trant up and have him fall. From there its as simple as pointing the sword over Trant until he yielded. By the time Trant picked himself up off the floor Syrio would be long gone.
Another thing in favor of Syrio being alive is simply that GRRM hasn't said he is dead. This coupled with the fact that he leaves the scene well open to interpretation suggests to me that Forell still lives. What's the point of leaving his status up in the air if he's already dead?
The one thing that worries me about Syrio actually being dead is that I would have thought to have seen him sometime during the course of AFFC in the Bravos scenes. Three full books swithout him makes me a little nervous. Well, there will be Arya chapters in Dance. I can keep hoping ;)[/quote]
Further: when Trant reported to Cersei, and when Cersei commented on his report, it would have been odd to mention "a little trouble" with the dancing master, and not to mention having killed him. The understated description by Trant seems to hint at some embarrassment. Losing to an unarmored man with a broken stick would certainly be embarrassing.

Yes, three books without Syrio. Maybe he's Jaqen, maybe he's dead. If he lived, but his employer was crushed in KL, where would he go? Braavos, maybe? Who is out and about in Braavos ... in disguise, dressing and announcing herself as no one? Forel emphasizes that his greatest strength is seeing without influence by expectations, so he'd recognize Arya. He'd contact her ... carefully, in view of the KL slaughter. What would follow? Well, Arya is trying to master lying to the KOM (see her active study of the subject with the waif). To gain the benefits of FM knowledge, without actually yielding her Starkness (which she won't do, as implied by hiding Needle), Arya needs first and foremost to be able to lie well enough to deceive the KOM. Further, she has a bit of a problem with Dareon trying to desert the Nights Watch. Dareon really needs to go back to the wall rather than die ... he's not that bad a guy, really ... and I think Syrio could help Arya set up a lie that the KOM couldn't unravel, and that would work a little justice with Dareon. It would be very cool if she could beat the masters of deception at their own game.

It's my crackpot theory, and I'm stickin' to it. Not only because it would be great fun, but because Arya needs a lifeline. I have difficulty seeing even somebody as self-directed as Arya being able to withstand not only the sequence of events she's been subjected to, but also the depersonalization the KOM is actively imposing on her. Yet we can be sure that Arya will be important later in ASOIAF because of the extensive screen time GRRM lavishes on her. She needs to be pulled back from her implied descent into cold-blooded killing, and Forel is just the man for the job.

[israfel070]

To get back on topic, I agree with Lanciform that we'll probably never see him again. I won't even express an opinion one way or the other as to whether he escaped the building... but I'll never believe that Meryn bested him one-on-one.

As for whether his decision to keep using his stick = a death wish, I'd argue that a long thin weapon is more suited to his fighting style than the British-esque broadswords that the guards were wielding.

[Aumerle]

[quote]Further: when Trant reported to Cersei, and when Cersei commented on his report, it would have been odd to mention "a little trouble" with the dancing master, and not to mention having killed him. The understated description by Trant seems to hint at some embarrassment. Losing to an unarmored man with a broken stick would certainly be embarrassing.[/quote]

I would respectfully disagree with this statement. In my mind, from Cersei's point of view a member of the Kingsguard successfully killing Arya's "dancing master" (and not Syrio the First Sword of Braavos - so it sounds like she didn't know who he actually was) would be the expected outcome from her point of view. Just as I seriously doubt she would specifically mention ever single lowborn Stark follower that was killed, I believe that it would only be worth mentioning in her eyes if he did NOT die as that would be the unexpected outcome (some random guy teaching Arya how to dance besting a member of the Kingsguard is something that I would expect her to react to, possibly wanting to have Trant removed from the Kingsguard for his utter failure, in fact I'm surprised she didn't have that done for just losing Arya since she seems to have no problem removing Kingsguard). I could see her understating the fight - perhaps he was beat black and blue by Syrio before he died = "a little trouble" in Cersei's eyes. But if he actually outfought a member of the Kingsguard and got away I think she would have had more to say on the matter.

[Jojen's Ghost]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1757740' date='Apr 16 2009, 20.49']Syrio had no viable chance of defeating the fully armoured Meryn Trant, and he himself declared that he wouldn't run clearly enough.[/quote]
One thing on this, if I may. The story clearly gives multiple examples of lightly-armoured and smaller men defeating heavily armoured opponents, most notably Bronn vs. Ser LetMeUsAnUnfamiliarSword and Oberyn vs. Gregor. Both of those victors (notable warriors, each) have echoed the statement that all that is needed is to knock the suit of armour on his back. While they were specifically discussing Gregor, there is still hope that Syrio could have disabled Trant long enough to buy the time to escape.

But, I do agree that that is unlikely. The First-sword of Braavos died fighting, as a good Bravo should. His reappearance in the tale would cheapen his sacfrifice and make it trite.

[Nihilist]

One thing on this, if I may. The story clearly gives multiple examples of lightly-armoured and smaller men defeating heavily armoured opponents, most notably Bronn vs. Ser LetMeUsAnUnfamiliarSword and Oberyn vs. Gregor. Both of those victors (notable warriors, each) have echoed the statement that all that is needed is to knock the suit of armour on his back. While they were specifically discussing Gregor, there is still hope that Syrio could have disabled Trant long enough to buy the time to escape.

But, I do agree that that is unlikely. The First-sword of Braavos died fighting, as a good Bravo should. His reappearance in the tale would cheapen his sacfrifice and make it trite.

Syrio is dead.

While Syrio Forel was able to kill the four guardsmen, he was outmatched when it came to the fully armored Meryn Trant. While many have speculated that Syrio could of picked up a weapon, I believe this is highly unlikely as he is being driven back by the time Arya leaves.

"Ser Meryn advanced;Syrio backed away. He checked the next blow, spun away from the second, deflected the third. The fourth sliced his stick in two, spintering the wood and shearing through the lead core. Sobbing, Arya spun and ran."

So when we leave the scene several things are happening: Syrio is being driven back, he has been disarmed, and he is facing a fully armored and longsword wielding Meryn Trant. While Trant may not be the best knight in Westeros(or even close) even he could win a battle as lopsided as this(and Syrio had already proclaimed that "The first sword of Braavos does not run"). Also, those proclaiming that Syrio could get a weapon somehow have to explain why Trant wouldn't kill Syrio while he tries to pick up one of the guards long swords(which are probably on the other side of the room).

As for other people defeating fully armored warriors, not only were those others armored, but they both had weapons capable of outreaching or at least matching the distance of their foes reach. Syrio had a stick(a sliced in half stick) and a leather vest against a fully armored Trant.

Syrio Forel is dead.

[iheartseverus]

Syrio Forel is alive.

"Ser Meryn advanced;Syrio backed away. He checked the next blow, spun away from the second, deflected the third. The fourth sliced his stick in two, spintering the wood and shearing through the lead core. Sobbing, Arya spun and ran."

As Trant closed in, Syrio spun on one leg. In a blur of speed he thrust his broken stick against the left temple of Trant's helm. As lead whanged against steel, Trant dropped in his tracks and did not move.

Long minutes later, Trant pulled himself groggily to his feet and looked around. There was no one to be seen. His vision wobbling along with his legs, he fought down the urge to vomit as he stumbled back to the guardroom.

(Stick 'em with the pointy end)

Syrio Forel is alive.

[Nihilist]

Syrio Forel is alive.

"Ser Meryn advanced;Syrio backed away. He checked the next blow, spun away from the second, deflected the third. The fourth sliced his stick in two, spintering the wood and shearing through the lead core. Sobbing, Arya spun and ran."

As Trant closed in, Syrio spun on one leg. In a blur of speed he thrust his broken stick against the left temple of Trant's helm. As lead whanged against steel, Trant dropped in his tracks and did not move.

Long minutes later, Trant pulled himself groggily to his feet and looked around. There was no one to be seen. His vision wobbling along with his legs, he fought down the urge to vomit as he stumbled back to the guardroom.

(Stick 'em with the pointy end)

Syrio Forel is alive.

I see. Syrio can't knock out Trant with a full stick...but with half a stick he becomes a one hit wonder. The first Braavos indeed.

[LordNedsHead]

Does anyone realize how slow and cumbersome full plate makes a person? Movement, speed, even visibility is etremely hampered in full armor. If Trant were pushing Syrio back and broke his sword the guy could have easily dodged to the side out of the way.

Trant definately had the advantage in defense. But Syrio totally had the offense edge. Not only was he more moble in his dress, his specific fighting style is designed to take advantage of agility and Syrio is no average water dancer but a complete master of the style.

If the Lannisters and Trant had come into Arya's bedchamber, perhaps Syrio's movement advantage would be hampered, but they were in the Hand's dining hall so the room had plenty of space to maneuver.

I could argue the situation and logical evidence of the scene all day, but for me the most compelling argument for Syrio's life is in Martin's writing style. It would be very bad writing to leave a scene like this unresolved for such a long time. The description leading up to and including the climax of the scene is clearly and purposfully left open to interpretation. A good writer wouldn't leave a scene like this open if it didn't serve some point further down the line. To me that just screams that Syrio is still alive.

Chekhov's Gun (a popular rule of writing that I am sure GRRM is aware of and strives to follow) states that if an author places a loaded gun hanging on the wall of a room in act 1, that gun must go off at some later point in the plot. Conversley, if a loaded gun is fired at a later point in the script, the author must introduce it hanging on the wall at an earlier point. In summary, the Law states that if something is going to be introduced into a story, there must be a reason it is there. I guess the except to this would be scene setting descriptions, though I would argue that items used to set a scene are serving their purpose as we read about them.

I believe that in this scene the very manner in which the climax was written is Martin applying Chechov's Gun Law. He purposefully crafts the scene to leave the outcome open to the reader's interpretation. As per Chechov's Gun, there MUST be a reason for this. It serves no purpose whatsover to leave Syrio's death in question.

Couple Chechov's Gun with Martin's penchant for flawed character perception and this scene is just rife with clues that Syrio is still alive. Martin warns time and time again that the true scene does not always occur as the PoV characters see it.

Of all the many so called crackpot theories I have this one is tied with one other for the one I'm most certain will bear fruit by the end of the series. I'm gonna write about the other one once I finish my reread of Storm in a week or so. I'll name the thread Tansy if anyone cares to look for it heh.

[dancer]

With Syrio having been the First Sword of Braavos, he is obviously a supremely talented Water Dancer and can move with very fast reactions and speed. It isn't out of the realms of possibility (like some people have suggested) that he could pick up a Golden Cloak's sword, as Ser Meryn Trant is in seriously heavy full amour and he isn't exactly mobile at the best of times.

I think that it is entirely reasonable to suggest that once Syrio picked steel he could have forced Ser Meryn Trant into yielding and allowing him to escape.

I don't Martin would have let it hanging. What would be the point in doing that if he was dead.

[iheartseverus]

I see. Syrio can't knock out Trant with a full stick...but with half a stick he becomes a one hit wonder. The first Braavos indeed.

Full stick or half stick isn't the issue. Timing is. Opportunity is. The right opening is.

He checked the next blow, spun away from the second, deflected the third. Syrio is a master at this--with each of Trant's blows, he reacted accordingly. It was once Trant moved in close for the kill that Syrio was able to strike. Full stick or half stick is irrelevant. I agree fully with LordNed'sHead and dancer.

Syrio is alive.

[Nihilist]

With Syrio having been the First Sword of Braavos, he is obviously a supremely talented Water Dancer and can move with very fast reactions and speed. It isn't out of the realms of possibility (like some people have suggested) that he could pick up a Golden Cloak's sword, as Ser Meryn Trant is in seriously heavy full amour and he isn't exactly mobile at the best of times.

I think that it is entirely reasonable to suggest that once Syrio picked steel he could have forced Ser Meryn Trant into yielding and allowing him to escape.

I don't Martin would have let it hanging. What would be the point in doing that if he was dead.

Does he have to write "blah is dead" for every character in the book? Will, who is a member of the Nights watch in the prologue of AGOT is being strangled by a zombie when George leaves the scene. Well he could of escaped! He could of bashed in the zombies head and used his skills to get back to camp!

But he didn't do that. Because he was in a helpless situation like Syrio was. He is just as dead as Syrio.

Syrio had no weapon, no armor, no way of escaping the Red Keep. How did he get by Trant? If he did get by Trant(or knew he would) why didn't he search out and or help Arya? The only mentioning of him we get is that Trant had some trouble with a dancing master(he did after all kill 5 guards and stalled Trant long enough for Arya to escape). Never are we told that Syrio defeated Trant or that he is loose.

The only difference between Will and Syrio is wishful thinking.

"Full stick or half stick isn't the issue. Timing is. Opportunity is. The right opening is."

Half-stick with half the reach against a longsword? A stick is no match against a longsword, half a stick is obviously not an improved situation.

[iheartseverus]

The only difference between Will and Syrio is wishful thinking.

The difference between Will and Syrio is that one is an untrained, terrified boy and the other is a master of asymmetrical hand-to-hand combat.

Syrio is alive.

[Nihilist]

The difference between Will and Syrio is that one is an untrained, terrified boy and the other is a master of asymmetrical hand-to-hand combat.

Syrio is alive.

If he is so masterful why was he unable to defeat Trant in the presence of Arya? Why did he urge her to flee when Trant stepped forward?

He is dead and you are in denial.

[Aplomb]

Never are we told that Syrio defeated Trant or that he is loose.

Never are we told that Trant defeated Syrio or that he is dead.

It's clearly an unresolved and unresolvable issue, by obvious design, unless GRRM address it in the future. I'm not sure why people are coming down so hard and so absolutely on either side, but it's amusing to watch.

[Nihilist]

Never are we told that Trant defeated Syrio or that he is dead.

It's clearly an unresolved and unresolvable issue, by obvious design, unless GRRM address it in the future. I'm not sure why people are coming down so hard and so absolutely on either side, but it's amusing to watch.

We aren't told because it's easy to see how doomed he is(we have Arya thinking about how he is dead also). His character is completely useless at this point in the story, further suggesting that he is not coming back.

And as for why I'm coming down on the wishful thinkers...time to burn.

[iheartseverus]

If he is so masterful why was he unable to defeat Trant in the presence of Arya? Why did he urge her to flee when Trant stepped forward?

He is dead and you are in denial.

Again, you miss the point. Full stick or half stick, first blow or fifth blow, in the presence of Arya or not in the presence of Arya. All totally irrelevant. A hand-to-hand combat is not a matter of Syrio-must-win-with-the-first-blow-and-a-full-stick-and-in-the-presence-of-witnesses or else he's dead. And of course he urged Arya to flee--they were being confronted by armed men coming to take her into custody.

Syrio is alive and you are in denial.

And yes, I agree, Aplomb, it is amusing! :P

[LordNedsHead]

The difference between Syrio and will is again in the craft of writing. Will, surrounded by Others in a hopeless fight for freedom is George filling the reader with an icy sense of dread. Its also a metaphor for the state of impending doom about to befalle the Seven Kingdoms.

Not seeing Syrio die serves no purpose. Indeed if he were to die and Arya were to see it, it could have made for a heart wrenching moment. I can't see George passing up something like this.

Speaking of which, to adress Nihilist's point of why did he have Arya flee. The answer is that the outcome of the battle wasn't certain regardless of how confident he was. He was buying her time in case more guards showed up or Trant got lucky.

[cybroleach]

But I've still wondered after it, because a good number of characters really crap on the guy as both a knight and a swordsman. Margaery says Kettleblack would carve him up like a turkey in a straight fight, he loses his friggin' cloak in the riot at King's Landing, Barristan sure thinks he could slaughter the guy while taking a piss, and all this catches my eye because, clearly, nobody knighted him for his prowess in battle. He wins a tilt against Alyn at the Hand's tourney and...that's about it, as far as I can recall. I figure he's just there because he's one of Cersei's toadies, but I just wonder what he did to distinguish himself, if anything.

Even Sandor comes back with his cloak torn and bleeding from that riot. Also we have have Cersei's opinion that Ser Meryn will need to fake a sickness on the day of the duel and be unable to appear as well as Jamie mentions him as an adequate fighter. The only knocks on him are his age and speed, yet he's still younger than Syrio.

As Trant closed in, Syrio spun on one leg. In a blur of speed he thrust his broken stick against the left temple of Trant's helm. As lead whanged against steel, Trant dropped in his tracks and did not move.

Funny how when Syrio actually DID this Trant didn't even flinch, yet now a half stick he somehow has Ser Gregor's strength and Trant has Merret Frey sindrome.

The two simple facts of the situation are Syrio wouldn't run, and Trant is alive and well, leading to Syrio is dead.

[Hodor's Codpiece]

Q: Is Syrio dead?

A: Obviously yes.

[The WaterDancer Knight]

Q: Is Syrio dead?

A: Obviously yes.

It is not obvious. Not at all ! Other have explained why and How Syrio could have survived. It is true that at that point in the story he had lasted his usefulness, so he can die. But I am not in Martin's head to presume that such a character could never be useful again to the story in future books (especially with Arya in Braavos now). Perhaps Martin himself does not know it and that is why he never showed us Syrio's corpse.

And by the way, for anybody with some knowledge of fencing Syrio's actions against Ser Meryn Trant show very well that he has the control of the fight and he stay defensive only because he wants to buy as much time as possible for Arya. As far as I know when Arya last saw him, he is not cornered or has his movements blocked, so nothing stop him to dodge the fatal blow that Ser Meryn is going to deliver. I could very easily picture him dancing around Ser Meryn, dodging blows, without trying to attack. And Ser Meryn gradually becoming more and more angry that he can't catch this master dancer. At this game, the knight in full plate will be tired well before the guy without armour. It is a dangerous game too. The first mistake and Syrio is dead.