Is Syrio dead?

[Ealasaid]

Well Bronn beat Ser Vardis..

I think Syrio took his severed wooden sword, clonked Trant on the helm, and danced away. Trant had a terrinle headache for three days. He never said he killed the dancing master. In fact, he was quite reticent about it.

I just like the idea of Syrio alive.

[Roi Woodt]

Mormont,

Indeed. Which makes me wonder why you think it is still unresolved?

I mean, if Syrio did die, it's resolved. If he's still alive, we've heard nothing of it since AGOT was published. If Syrio's alive, don't you think GRRM should have given out some sort of clear hint, or better yet returned to the issue?

Be patient Mormont, sooner or later the issue will be resolved. Why so soon, when there are still so many books to be written? You must admit that Martin is a bit vague about the Syrio scene.

One reason the books are so great, for me, is that we, for example, see a Flint in the far North, we see Arstan the bold joining the dragonqueen, we hear about ships that travel the world, we hear about wild wolves in the forest, etc. In other words, the world is a dynamic pace. It's fun to see words mentioned by Ned, come true in a Danaerys chapter. It's also fun to see a non-pov character travel troughout the world, due to glimps of pov's. To me, and maybe that's why I "feel" Syrio didn't die there, most hilarious of all, is that we have actually followed this character, without knowing he is one and the same. Adn after four books the old-pate character makes an offhand command, see with your eyes, and then we know, and find out that we saw him all throughout the books. We will discover that he was Pate, that he was Jaqen and that the bastard was Syrio as well. And think, yeah, these books are great indeed.

And that's the reason that I cannot see that Syrio is death, there is no evidence at all, except what sounds the most convincing. If there was, I would be the first to admit my defeat (well, maybe the last...). Not because he was such a cool character, I don't care, but because it fits by all other dynamical stroylines.

[mormont]

Syrio is fighting an armoured knight with only a wooden stick for weapon. Of course he is desperate. He knows he has no chance to win this fight. And he is fighting to give as much time for Arya to escape. Of course he is hard pressed. But he still control the fight and will do it as long as he can dodge Ser Meryn's blows.

How can he be in 'control' of the fight and still have 'no chance to win'?

Be patient Mormont, sooner or later the issue will be resolved. Why so soon, when there are still so many books to be written?

Half the series has been written since that fight, thirteen years have passed in the real world (and a couple of years in 'book time'). To suggest that the outcome of that fight remains to be resolved after all that time is to suggest, as the previous quote said, that GRRM is a bad writer.

We will discover that he was Pate, that he was Jaqen and that the bastard was Syrio as well. And think, yeah, these books are great indeed.

No, we'll think 'that's impossible. There is literally no way that Syrio could be Jaqen. This is very badly written and hence very unlike the other storylines'. At least, that's what I would think if this happened: fortunately, it will not. :)

[Aplomb]

There is literally no way that Syrio could be Jaqen.

I honestly am perplexed that people are so willing to state this categorically. If Syrio is Jaqen, that means Syrio is a Faceless Man. He could have replaced Jaqen at any time. Even if you think there's no way Syrio could replace Jaqen in the black cells (which I strongly dispute), Syrio could replace the prisoner who was born Jaqen and thus take over that persona earlier on the morning Yoren, Arya and Co. rolled out of King's Landing. Why not? What do we know of that morning, or any of the days leading up to the departure of Yoren and his party, or whether or not Syrio the Faceless Man had an opportunity to replace the hapless Jaqen in the way Pate the pig boy was replaced? Is there literally no way that could happen?

And if Syrio was a Faceless Man who replaced Jaqen, he probably wasn't "Syrio" to begin with, he was a Faceless Man acting like the Syrio First Sword of Braavos. If you think Syrio would have scruples about rules about fair fighting or not running away against Trant, a Faceless Man pretending to be "Syrio" would not. Who knows, as soon as Arya ran away "Syrio" might have whipped out a vial of narcotic-blinding-forgetting potion from under his tunic and tossed it into Trant's eyes.

The argument that Syrio cannot be Jaqen I think seriously underestimates what Faceless Men can do, which is odd because we see them do some incredible things right in front of Arya's eyes. They can pass their hands in front of their faces and become someone else, they can look like skulls with worms coming out of them, they can get dogs to kill their masters. Having a Faceless Man use drugs, illusions or trickery to beat Trant seems pretty damn plausible, as does having one replace at some point some hapless loser named Jaqen loosely guarded by green NW recruits.

Maybe that isn't what happened, but is there literally no way it could happen?

[mormont]

I honestly am perplexed that people are so willing to state this categorically.

Well, I suppose that is an overstatement in that nothing is impossible in a work of fiction. But the series of fantastic events and incredible behaviour (not to mention the colossal amount of unlikely backstory) required make this about as 'impossible' as any theory I've ever seen - and I've seen theories that GRRM himself laughed out loud at.

Look, there is one thing, and one only, that gives rise to this theory: people think Syrio is cool. The rest follows from this. Without that to lend the force of wishful thinking to the 'evidence', the theory doesn't even begin to stand up.

[shapur]

Well, the very first thread I ever posted on here was about Syrio being alive. I think that O-i-L has posted the link to that earlier in this thread. It's title was something along the lines of "Syrio neither Dead nor Jaqen". And it was stated specifically there that GRRM had already told Syrio is dead. Of course, there was a disscussion over every last letter in GRRM's words, but, yeah, Syrio is dead. End of story.

EDITED: This is the link to The Citadel. Syrio Is Dead. Deal with it.

Now, just for the reckord, I was originaly in the side of Syrio being alive, but even the First Sword of Braavos isn't immortal. ;)

[Roi Woodt]

Well, I suppose that is an overstatement in that nothing is impossible in a work of fiction. But the series of fantastic events and incredible behaviour (not to mention the colossal amount of unlikely backstory) required make this about as 'impossible' as any theory I've ever seen

Instead of being killed, Syrio has been put in the black cells. Is that such a fantastic event? It's like Ned, but the other way around.

and I've seen theories that GRRM himself laughed out loud at

Sounds as a good way to avoid answering questions to me.

Half the series has been written since that fight, thirteen years have passed in the real world (and a couple of years in 'book time'). To suggest that the outcome of that fight remains to be resolved after all that time is to suggest, as the previous quote said, that GRRM is a bad writer.

You forget, nobody is waiting for that particular thing to be resolved, because they already believe it is resolved. Why make haste? It's a very small detail, nothing to do with the plot. It's like the name of a ship that you heard before and see again through the eyes of a different pov.

From the citadel,

In 2005, GRRM pointed out that Syrio seems to have been left in a hopeless situation when he was last seen, and suggested readers should "draw your own conclusions" based on this (SSM), which seems to imply that Syrio Forel was in fact killed. More recent reports (but, it should be said, unconfirmed) indicate GRRM does not understand why he gets asked the question repeatedly, pointing out that Syrio is not immortal; if accurate, this seems to more heavily imply that Syrio Forel is dead.

To me, this indicates that he wants us to think that he is death, but he refuses to say so, because he isn't. He is deliberately setting us on the wrong foot, trying to silcence the discussion without a direct lie or giving away some nice details he had planned for a future book.

[Errant Bard]

Instead of being killed, Syrio has been put in the black cells. Is that such a fantastic event?

Yes from the very beginning. Trant asked for him to be killed. Syrio loses, he dies.

[mormont]

Instead of being killed, Syrio has been put in the black cells. Is that such a fantastic event?

Yes. It's completely incredible. The reasons for that have been explained at length, but to recap a few of the main ones:

- the Lannisters killed or executed every Stark retainer or ally they laid their hands on. Why would they not do the same to Syrio?

- if Syrio went into the cells but never came out, why is no-one perplexed about his mysterious disappearance?

- if Syrio went into the cells and came out as Jaqen, why was Yoren, a man from the Night's Watch - known to have sympathies to Ned - allowed to remove prisoners from the cells adjacent to his, while the Red Keep was locked down?

- why does Longwaters never mention Syrio being in the cells? He's very clear about exactly who was there and when. Why would he omit to mention Syrio?

You can advance lots of cruft, backstory, additional explanation and justification on each of these points to try to lever them into some kind of explanation that hangs together, but all of it exists only to make the theory work. IOW, you're reasoning backward from the assumption that the theory is true to invent the 'evidence' from whole cloth. Begging the question, circular argument, pick your preferred term, it's still a fallacy.

You forget, nobody is waiting for that particular thing to be resolved, because they already believe it is resolved. Why make haste? It's a very small detail, nothing to do with the plot. It's like the name of a ship that you heard before and see again through the eyes of a different pov.

I can't see how this supports the idea that the issue is unresolved: it seems to me rather to undermine it.

The whole thing makes more sense if the issue is resolved. Again, your only argument is the attempt to support the whole theory by its own bootstraps.

To me, this indicates that he wants us to think that he is death, but he refuses to say so, because he isn't. He is deliberately setting us on the wrong foot, trying to silcence the discussion without a direct lie or giving away some nice details he had planned for a future book.

To me, that's an interpretation that seems actually perverse.

[AvengingAryaFan]

... To me, that's an interpretation that seems actually perverse.

Perverse it may be ... but how's an author to surprise sophisticated readers without being a bit perverse?

Well, the very first thread I ever posted on here was about Syrio being alive. I think that O-i-L has posted the link to that earlier in this thread. It's title was something along the lines of "Syrio neither Dead nor Jaqen". And it was stated specifically there that GRRM had already told Syrio is dead. Of course, there was a disscussion over every last letter in GRRM's words, but, yeah, Syrio is dead. End of story.

EDITED: This is the link to The Citadel. Syrio Is Dead. Deal with it.

Now, just for the reckord, I was originaly in the side of Syrio being alive, but even the First Sword of Braavos isn't immortal. ;)

The Syrio/Trant fight scene always looked hopeless: Syrio's wooden sword cut off, Arya turning to run. But Martin treated us to Bolton sticking a sword in Robb and twisting it; to a graphic description of Ned's spasms and his head rolling. He doesn't shrink from gore, he revels in it. So why did he stop one sentence short of describing Syrio's horrible death? Considering that, one begins to look at further evidence in the series such as lightly armored but mobile men defeating armored men, Trant's modest reputation, Syrio's high reputation and demonstrated speed and skill, etc., etc., and reasonable people left to "draw their own conclusions" conclude that Syrio may be dead, but is more likely alive. I didn't say that no reasonable people draw the opposite conclusion, mind you. The only unreasonable people are those that insist that they know for certain whether or not Syrio survived that fight.

You have pointed to Martin's comments, as reported in The Citadel. As an attorney, I parse words carefully, distinguishing firm statements from suggestive language. I just read The Citadel remarks again: notice that they start with "Syrio’s fate is completely unknown." I've also read other comments by Martin in this regard. To my knowledge he has NEVER said that Syrio is dead. He makes suggestions that invite you to draw that conclusion, but he makes it clear that it will be your own conclusion. He "can't understand why he keeps getting this question." That's totally nonsubstantive evasion. He says "Syrio isn't immortal," and "Look at the situation and draw your own conclusion." More substance-free evasion - he sets forth no conclusion of his own. Everything Martin has said in this regard is exactly what's needed to maintain the option of having Syrio survive, or not. Martin can be coy just for fun, and he might have decided that Syrio is dead (it's his choice, after all), but those of you who are convinced that Syrio is dead on the basis of the scenes and relevant evidence in ASOIF are not "seeing with your eyes." Instead, you're extrapolating to a conclusion that you've been led to expect. That conclusion can't be "seen with your eyes" because it hasn't been shown. You're guessing, and you should be clever enough to realize you're guessing.

[Errant Bard]

Heh, yeah, Elvis isn't dead either.

[robs hand]

Well, I suppose that is an overstatement in that nothing is impossible in a work of fiction. But the series of fantastic events and incredible behaviour (not to mention the colossal amount of unlikely backstory) required make this about as 'impossible' as any theory I've ever seen - and I've seen theories that GRRM himself laughed out loud at.

Look, there is one thing, and one only, that gives rise to this theory: people think Syrio is cool. The rest follows from this. Without that to lend the force of wishful thinking to the 'evidence', the theory doesn't even begin to stand up.

Peace Mormont, when they're hopes and dreams of a living Syrio come crashing down around them you and i will be there to mock them and not "in our cups". And if you remain quiet about it and Syrio really is alive then they cannot mock you.

I think that Syrio dyed but that forgetfull potion idea does have merit because then Trant would concevibly have the headache but not remember about Syrio therefore he could not say that he killed him, Syrio could also have picked up a dead guardsmans sword, i still think that he is dead though.

[mormont]

Perverse it may be ... but how's an author to surprise sophisticated readers without being a bit perverse?

I haven't suggested or implied that GRRM was being perverse. That's a completely different thing.

A resort to the notion that GRRM loves nothing more than to trick his readers is, in my experience, a pretty reliable sign of a desperate lack of any more substantial argument. :P GRRM is writing a story, not indulging in a game of intellectual one-upmanship. (If you're the author, there's no point to it anyway - you can win that game every time, because you set the questions and write the answers. ;))

The Syrio/Trant fight scene always looked hopeless: Syrio's wooden sword cut off, Arya turning to run. But Martin treated us to Bolton sticking a sword in Robb and twisting it; to a graphic description of Ned's spasms and his head rolling. He doesn't shrink from gore, he revels in it. So why did he stop one sentence short of describing Syrio's horrible death?

Why not? If that's what worked best for that scene - and it did, because it meant that Syrio's death was simultaneously a demonstration of what he had taught Arya, an excellent bit of writing.

The idea that because the writer shows death (A) one way, any death not depicted that way is not really a death, is a fallacy and implies that the writer is working with a very limited set of tools - something that can't be said of this writer. GRRM depicts death in a lot of ways, usually appropriate to the scene. The Red Wedding, for example, requires a lot of blood and an unsparing depiction of Robb's death, since we readers must feel the unbearable impact on Cat to understand her reaction.

Considering that, one begins to look at further evidence in the series such as lightly armored but mobile men defeating armored men, Trant's modest reputation, Syrio's high reputation and demonstrated speed and skill, etc., etc., and reasonable people left to "draw their own conclusions" conclude that Syrio may be dead, but is more likely alive.

These 'reasonable people' appear to be guilty of selective reading. ;) They seem to be ignoring all the contrary arguments...

You have pointed to Martin's comments, as reported in The Citadel. As an attorney, I parse words carefully, distinguishing firm statements from suggestive language.

It's not a legal deposition. It's a straightforward conversational remark. As such, it's unlikely to require careful parsing: it means what it seems to mean, i.e. he genuinely doesn't understand why people keep asking this question.

[robs hand]

I predict that someone on this board will die in less than 24 hours...... I dont think it will be Mormont

[Shemy]

I didn't think it was left open to interpretation either.

I thought it was very clevery written.

"See with your eyes."

Syrio with a stick and no armor, against a fully heavy armored KG bearing steel. Aryas final lesson has been taught, and that's why she runs sobbing.

If Syrio is alive, that completely ruins that bit of writing, which is superbly written. I like Syrio just as much as any reader, but we've seen Martin kill off far more important characters then that, and not all have been clear cut reading.

Syrios death was perfectly suited. Given the choice of killing him off with the " see with your eyes " line, or going into detail about how we was beaten by Trant, I know what I'd prefer.

[shapur]

Perverse it may be ... but how's an author to surprise sophisticated readers without being a bit perverse?

The Syrio/Trant fight scene always looked hopeless: Syrio's wooden sword cut off, Arya turning to run. But Martin treated us to Bolton sticking a sword in Robb and twisting it; to a graphic description of Ned's spasms and his head rolling. He doesn't shrink from gore, he revels in it. So why did he stop one sentence short of describing Syrio's horrible death? Considering that, one begins to look at further evidence in the series such as lightly armored but mobile men defeating armored men, Trant's modest reputation, Syrio's high reputation and demonstrated speed and skill, etc., etc., and reasonable people left to "draw their own conclusions" conclude that Syrio may be dead, but is more likely alive. I didn't say that no reasonable people draw the opposite conclusion, mind you. The only unreasonable people are those that insist that they know for certain whether or not Syrio survived that fight.

You have pointed to Martin's comments, as reported in The Citadel. As an attorney, I parse words carefully, distinguishing firm statements from suggestive language. I just read The Citadel remarks again: notice that they start with "Syrio’s fate is completely unknown." I've also read other comments by Martin in this regard. To my knowledge he has NEVER said that Syrio is dead. He makes suggestions that invite you to draw that conclusion, but he makes it clear that it will be your own conclusion. He "can't understand why he keeps getting this question." That's totally nonsubstantive evasion. He says "Syrio isn't immortal," and "Look at the situation and draw your own conclusion." More substance-free evasion - he sets forth no conclusion of his own. Everything Martin has said in this regard is exactly what's needed to maintain the option of having Syrio survive, or not. Martin can be coy just for fun, and he might have decided that Syrio is dead (it's his choice, after all), but those of you who are convinced that Syrio is dead on the basis of the scenes and relevant evidence in ASOIF are not "seeing with your eyes." Instead, you're extrapolating to a conclusion that you've been led to expect. That conclusion can't be "seen with your eyes" because it hasn't been shown. You're guessing, and you should be clever enough to realize you're guessing.

Yeah, that has been disscussed in the selfsame thread I mentioned in my post. If you go there to pages 19-21 and ignore the "Arya is a sociopath" thing, you will find your answers about his choice of words.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Well Bronn beat Ser Vardis..

And Bronn had quite a bit of steel armor, a steel sword, and we were explicitly shown how this unexpected thing happened. Quite a bit different from the ludicrousness of someone with absolutely no steel on them at all beating a nearly uninjurable foe off camera, eh? Bronn was able to shove that steel sword through Vardis' mail, something basically impossible to do with a wooden stick. He did it while Vardis was pinned to the ground and was wide open. Syrio himself would have been wide open while trying to scrounge up a fallen sword.

Could the fantastic sequence of events required for Syrio to triumph actually happen? Sure, if that was how the story was written. But to simply assume that they did with zero evidence? Ugh. That's not just bad writing, it's bad reading too.

I think Syrio took his severed wooden sword, clonked Trant on the helm, and danced away. Trant had a terrinle headache for three days. He never said he killed the dancing master. In fact, he was quite reticent about it.

Cybro already shot this one down. Syrio already clanged Meryn upside the helm; it did nothing. How's he going to strike him harder with a stick that's only half as long. It's just silly.

I just like the idea of Syrio alive.

Unfortunately liking something isn't enough to make it so.

AAF,

So why did he stop one sentence short of describing Syrio's horrible death?

Obviously because that one sentence's worth of time made the difference between Arya being able to escape, and Meryn Trant catching her. No mystery there; the entire purpose of the fight was to buy her that time.

[Roi Woodt]

A resort to the notion that GRRM loves nothing more than to trick his readers is, in my experience, a pretty reliable sign of a desperate lack of any more substantial argument.

I never claimed that, but what makes this a bad argument?????

Didn't you read the multiple prophecies, haven't you heard about Alleras and Arstan. Who is the prince that was promised, he even tells it via Marwyn the mage, he IS tricking you all the time. He let you believe that characters are death while they are still alive. You, and me, are tricked throughout the books, multiple of times. Jon Snow for example, he tries to lure us into thinking that he is Ned's son. For four books long already. Again and again, my blood, etc. We know, most of us, as a board, that he isn't, nevertheless, if no-one had told me so, I would still be thinking he was the son of Ned. And this is only one of the many examples. Have you ever asked GRRM about Jon's real father? What did he say?

There is a good story to be written in case Syrio didn't die in the Hand's tower to support the Syrio is Jaqen theory. Maybe you think the story is better written with Syrio death, but than you have to make up a story how a faceless man is in a black cell (and I know you can), still, it needs to be explained, because we, as readers, want to know. How can such a dangerous, skilled and apparently important assassin been captured by the corrupted law of Robert Baratheon. I would like to know. Surely since we are also informed about Rorge and Biter, and GRRM apparently thought about their crimes, about the reason why they were there in the first place.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

he genuinely doesn't understand why people keep asking this question.

Given the frequency with which Martin's characters appear to face certain death and then are revealed to still be alive (cliff-hangers) -- or otherwise animated (resurrections) -- or in some cases not even in the deadly danger that they appeared to be in, after all, due to the vague descriptions of unreliable points of view -- one would think he would be particularly understanding about questions regarding his character's mortality or the notion of a possibility that they somehow escaped their apparent but ambiguously described fate.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that fans should assume that Martin conceives of these cliff-hanger events and fantastic resurrections, and chooses to write with sometimes uncertain narration, in order to encourage precisely those kinds of questions and speculations.

[Melikon]

Syrio's sleeping with the fishes. :cry: