Is Syrio dead?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Now, since there's so many different variations on "Syrio lives!" going on here, I think it would be useful to chart them out so that each one can be judged on it's own logic. Some might claim that Syrio was captured and ended in the Black Cells against his will, some might claim he entered voluntarily to switch with the real Jaqen, some might claim he switched after they were released to Yoren. However often "anything could have happened" is used as a fallback, any idividual claim should be internally consistent. So the possibilities as I see them:

I: Syrio is a FM and is captured against his will

Presumably he runs away (being a secret FM, and not a real water dancer) as soon as Arya's back is turned, and evades immediate death, but is captured. This avoids the massive flaws in II and III, by being captured against his will, Syrio isn't an imbecile who places his own life in jeopardy by deliberately entering a war zone in manacles. However, it has it's own unique problems.

...Ia: as Syrio The big problem here, is that there's zero reason to take him alive. Meryn already gave orders to kill him, after which he murdered several red cloaks. And even Septa Mordane was killed in the purge, Syrio did the Lannisters much more harm than she did, and he's a foreigner unaffiliated with the dominant religion of Westeros. If they would kill her, there's not a reason in the world to hold back from killing him if they could. This equally applies to Syrio being caught if he's not a FM.

But that's just the start of the problem. If he enters the Black cells as Syrio, but leaves them as Jaqen, isn't someone going to notice that it's a very different person? If there was a totally different person in there who he replaced...the real Jaqen..what happened to him? Why didn't Rennifer Longwinded...I mean Longwaters...mention him when he was boring Jaime with all the dungeon minutiae? Additionally, see the second paragraph of Ib.

Ib: as Jaqen One excellent way a FM could survive in this situation would be to change his face before capture. This improves his chance of survival, since Syrio is a known murderer of Lannister guardsmen, and the order to kill him was given as soon as he impeded Arya's arrest. The question remains though, what if he didn't intervene? Would they have killed him anyway? They did kill Septa Mordane, but she's clearly linked to the Starks much more than Syrio was...so maybe not. If he changed to Jaqen, he has no link to the Starks at all, so that much less reason to kill him. But then again, why even arrest him at all? He would have been a completely neutral party, of no interest to them. Pure spitefulness? Maybe, but if they threw him in the Black Cells just for being a stranger in the Red Keep at the wrong time, why weren't there more in there with him? The Red Keep was a busy place, impossible to keep all the urchins out as we heard. And why the Black cells? Why not just throw him in the upper level, with the common criminals?

Still, this one flows more easily than the first option from here. We have no discrepancy with the Black Cell head count; Jaqen went in, Jaqen went out. But now we get to the time travel problem; since Jaqen and co were released under Ned's orders, how is it that someone who wasn't arrested until Ned's fall from power could make it out that way? The claim is made that these were routine orders and there was no need to countermand them, but Yoren remarked that House Lannister was never a friend of the Watch, why should they want to honour Ned's agreements, if the prisoners were still in the dungeons? And we're talking about someone who was arrested at the same time Ned was, and part of the same overall operation (Stark purge). Presumably the very reason he was nabbed was the possibility that he could be a Stark partisan (even if it's not obvious how). Ned himself was intended to take the black too, but under a special deal, not as part of the general dungeon emptying that he himself ordered. Why would prisoners suspected of being his accomplices be let out that way either?

...II: Syrio is a FM and escapes completely, but then breaks into the Black cells to switch with Jaqen

This one is really whacky. It just begs one huge "why?" Death row is a dangerous place, Joffrey a capricious and bloodthirsty king. Why risk him countermanding Ned's order and having Ilyn go ahead and lop Syrio's noggin off? If his goal is to accompany the NW party, he could simply volunteer, as did Praed, Cutjack, Woth, Reysen, and Qyle...all adult enlistees who made good use of walking freely instead of going chained. Considering that they're going to be going straight through a war zone (as anyone paying attention could predict) only makes it worse. Also part of the complication of Ia applies here: what happens to the real Jaqen's body? Why don't any of the dungeon staff notice? Did Rugen drug them for this (utterly unnecessary) scheme, too?

III: Syrio is a FM and escapes completely, and switches with Jaqen after he was released to Yoren

This avoids the time travel problem, since the three prisoners could have been released weeks before Ned's fall. However, one of the problems from II remains... why go in chains when you can go free...plus some new ones.

....IIIa: unbeknownst to Yoren Yoren is duped somehow. But if he thinks these criminals are so dangerous that he needs to keep them in irons, wouldn't he also keep a close eye on them? Set other recruits, or even Gold Cloaks to guard them when he couldn't (overseeing security for transferring prisoners is bound to be a duty of the police, while still in the city's jurisdiction)? And wouldn't he keep the key on his person? Of course, a FM can be assumed to learn lockpicking as part of their assassin skills, but how does this get done unnoticed? And was there even a lock at all? After all, Jaqen nearly died in a fire because of those chains, maybe they were forged shut rather using a (probably rare and expensive to waste on such brutes) mechanical lock. There's also Rorge and Biter as witnesses, wouldn't they demand to be released too, if their comrade went free? Maybe Syrio killed Jaqen and that explains both why they shut up and didn't make waves, but was there any blood in the cart? How was the body disposed of quickly enough that nobody else noticed anything?

....IIIb: with Yoren's assistance Many of the problems with witnesses for the substitution are avoided here, since Yoren could have taken care of the details. But why??? What interest does Yoren have in this bizarre deception? What's in it for him, to assist an assassin to displace (and probably murder) a real recruit for the NW?

Yoren's known loyalties are first and foremost to the NW, which he's not helping with this sham, he's actually hurting it by denying it a warm body (would he really think the FM would actually stay in the NW?).

A secondary loyalty seems to be to House Stark, though this is a byproduct of the first. House Stark has always been a friend of the Watch, Ned did what he could to help his recruiting, Benjen Stark was his brother. And so he took positive steps to help the Starks, from racing south from the crossroads to give Ned the news of Tyrion first, to spiriting Arya away.

How does introducing a FM into the party help anything? Some claim that Yoren's (and Jaqen's, for some reason) motive is to provide Arya with a protector. This doesn't stand up to the least bit of scrutiny; Jaqen can't protect her when he's chained nearly as well as if he were free, and later when he does get free he doesn't do much to protect her either. Sure, he kills three men for her, but that's all explained as part of his religious obligation the Many Faced God. And when it's fulfilled, he promptly abandons her to the tender mercies of such charming characters as Rorge, Biter, Vargo Hoat, Shagwell, the rest of the Bloody mummers, and Roose Bolton. Some protector.

IV: Syrio is not a Faceless Man at all and just escapes normally

This at least benefits by avoiding the bizarre convolutions of all the other versions, to it's credit. However, this requires a little more integrity from Syrio. If he's not an imposter, he should really mean what he says about the First Sword of Braavos never fleeing. If he really is Syrio the water dancer, he's lived his life in a very reckless bloody trade. Arya mentioned the bravo duels at the Moon Pool, and the Kindly Old Man told of how the bravos killed each other all the time over such weighty issues as which courtesan was most beautiful. Apparently, these guys aren't afraid of dying, for them to be willing to gamble their lives with their swordskill over such trivial causes. Moreover, he must have been pretty good to survive (doubtless killing many opponents) and rising to become the chief bodyguard of the Sealord. But that's all over now; he's not the First Sword anymore for whatever reason, and he's grown old in a young man's job. He's an exile in a strange land, making his way in what would seem to be humble circumstances.

....IVa: by fleeing like a rat

Now, none of that's to say that he's suicidal...anymore than we could call any bravo suicidal....but what does he have to live for that's so important that he would flush his pride down the toilet by turning and running like a coward, betraying everything he stands for? Instead of going out in a blaze of glory, fearlessly fighting on against hopeless odds? Readers may want Syrio to live because they love the character, but sheesh! You're not doing him any favours by shitting all over him this way, turning him into another Boros Blount.

....IVb: by defeating Meryn Trant

And of course there's all the old problems of Meryn Trant's survival, if he...against all odds...managed to win. Syrio obviously viewed Meryn with contempt, both for threatening a child and for his mediocre swordsmanship. What reason would he have for sparing him, when he already slew the hapless underlings? Syrio clearly doesn't have a moral problem with killing men in a fight, why spare Meryn?

Moreover, there's the endlessly repeated, but perpetually ignored problem of the armour. Syrio cannot get through the steel plate with his wooden practice sword. It's just plain impossible. The only way he could harm him with that wooden sword is by stabbing him in the eyes, through the vulnerable vision slit in his visor. The only problem is that no such thing happened, Meryn's eyes are later commented on, baggy but intact. Oh, but he could have snatched up a steel sword from a fallen redcloak, even though he would be wide open to yet another sword stroke while he did so (Meryn already sent four at him, taking out his ability to parry with wood on the last of those).

Probable? Not really, but let's go along anyway. Now he has a sword that's heavier than he would normally use..whatever...what's he do with it? Stab Meryn in the eyes? No, already covered that. Puncture the steel plate with the sword? No, unless you're Gregor Clegane it doesn't work that way (even if you are Gregor, you've got a two-hander which can deliver a more forceful blow (greater weight means more forceful impact and greater length equates to more speed at the tip) than the sort of short-swords those guards would likely have. We have a fine example of Duncan the Tall's fight with Lucas Longinch in tSS; The poleaxe is fearsome against plate, but the sword can't get through. Dunk has to kill him by shoving his dagger through the gap under his armpit, piercing the chainmail underneath, and penetrating right into his upper chest. Lucas dies in short order. Clearly Meryn didn't, but even if Syrio got a non-lethal strike into one of the gaps, it would likely incapacitate Meryn. Indeed, that would need to be the case in order to say that he triumphed. And if Meryn was at his mercy why wouldn't this hardened killer Syrio finish off a man he has no respect for? Well, one possibility is that he gets interrupted by even more guards bursting into the room. But then this leads us back to the problem of IVa, he turns and flees? Ugh.

But even if we do trash Syrio's character that way, then what? How does he escape the locked down Red Keep? it's likely to have heightened security for several days after the purge. Indeed, we saw that already from Arya, guards are crawling all over the city gates searching for her. And it shouldn't take too long for Meryn to get the word out about him (unless you prefer he swallow his desire for vengeance to avoid even more embarassment...but how could he even save face after someone found him with his ass kicked by a dancing teacher?) If he's not a FM, Varys is less likely to have any use for him. Would he find his way into the tunnels and get out that way? Conceivably, but there's no real reason to think so.

Or there's always

V: Syrio gives his life to buy Arya time to escape

Hmm. Realistic. Neat. Simple. Satisfying. No wild flights of fancy, improbably complex convolutions needed offstage to make it work, characters not needed to act in wierd or inexplicably foolish ways. Also seems to be exactly the conclusion the author expects us to reach, and has also indicated that we already have enough information to draw our own conclusions.

[Aplomb]

This is the ultimate irony for those of us suggesting the possibility that Syrio is still alive.

We get accused of being dreamy eyed Syrio worshipers who naively wish for Syrio to be alive because he is just so cool! We should get over our fanboy idolation and take off our unicorn and rainbow glasses, the Syrio-dead crowd say, because the facts are right there before us. Syrio was a great guy, but let's be realistic, OK? His death is literally inevitable, mathematically certain, scientifically proven, and dramatically required. Face the facts, the only reason we think he is still alive is because we want to believe that awesome fantasy heroes can never die! But GRRM is much more realistic than that, so we must open our eyes.

And here is the ultimate argument in favor of the one true conclusion we must all reach:

V: Syrio gives his life to buy Arya time to escape

Hmm. Realistic. Neat. Simple. Satisfying. No wild flights of fancy, improbably complex convolutions needed offstage to make it work, characters not needed to act in wierd or inexplicably foolish ways. Also seems to be exactly the conclusion the author expects us to reach, and has also indicated that we already have enough information to draw our own conclusions.

It makes sense, because people are generally suicidal. If they are fighting at the risk of death to protect a little girl, they will continue to fight even after the girl is safe and the risk of dying becomes pointless. Even if they can easily run away from a heavily burdened but lethal man, your average joe on the street will continue fighting to protect the now safe girl instead of fleeing to ensure his own safety. It's realistic, neat, simple and satisfying! Dying for no reason in this situation is the only way to avoid wild flights of fancy or improbably complex convolutions. The fight or flight reflex doesn't apply here, once you've saved the girl and are facing an almost assured death if you don't flee. You fight, of course!

Plus, it's exactly the conclusion the author expects us to reach! How can you possibly raise an issue about that, knowing that the author points us in one direction without explicitly establishing it as fact? Name one time GRRM subverted our expectations in this series. Name one!

Now, Other brings up all the lunatic heresies, but here is just one of the insane crazy hallucinations that illiterate children, moon-brained chowderheads, and flat earth enthusiasts fleetingly entertain while their drool cups are being emptied:

....IVa: by fleeing like a rat

Now, none of that's to say that he's suicidal...anymore than we could call any bravo suicidal....but what does he have to live for that's so important that he would flush his pride down the toilet by turning and running like a coward, betraying everything he stands for? Instead of going out in a blaze of glory, fearlessly fighting on against hopeless odds? Readers may want Syrio to live because they love the character, but sheesh! You're not doing him any favours by shitting all over him this way, turning him into another Boros Blount.

To expand on Other's unassailable truth, the reason this is unrealistic is because dying for no good reason is the norm. We know nothing about Syrio, really, which means he can't possibly have anything to live for! Going out in a blaze of glory and fearlessly fighting against hopeless odds is what we would all do.

And Syrio, especially! There is no way he would choose his own life over a hopeless fight by fleeing. How do we know this? Because he made a bold boast at the beginning of a fight. Those are always true! And because . . . because . . . he's Syrio! If he tells us he won't run away, it just has to be true! He's totally a blaze of glory, death against impossible odds guy! We know so much about him!

And if you think maybe he possibly might have run when he no longer had to worry about Arya, then Sheesh! How much can you idolize this character and not face facts! Be realistic! Syrio was a man obsessed with honor and pride and willing to die rather than refuse any challenge thrown his way no matter how hopeless!

And (here's the part that kills me) if you refuse to believe he senselessly died instead of running away, you are being blinded by your crazy belief that Syrio is just too cool and heroic to die! Wake up to the fact that he was . . . uh, so cool and honor bound that he had to get himself killed, because he said he'd never run, and you must believe everything Syrio says!

Because if you think he acted like a normal person and not some fantasy hero in that situation and ran away, you are . . . uh, engaging in unrealistic fantasy hero worship. Or something.

[Errant Bard]

We get accused of being dreamy eyed Syrio worshipers who naively wish for Syrio to be alive because he is just so cool!

You deny wishing Syrio was alive because you like him as a character and think he is the best fighter ever?

Because if you think he acted like a normal person and not some fantasy hero in that situation and ran away, you are . . . uh, engaging in unrealistic fantasy hero worship. Or something.

A normal person when engaged in combat cannot run. A man trying to gain time for someone he likes to run away will not run. A man stepping to the plate and protecting his charge against 6 men among which a fully armoured knight is a hero already.

A character having served his purpose going in a blaze of glory is better than one just making his last lesson a lie and never appearing again. Cool characters with eastern accent are less overpowered and more credible when they aren't all the same guy and have motivations of their own (instead of gravitating around the heroes, for no good reason)

And Arthur Dayne died.

[Edward the Great]

Maybe this thread should be renamed "Schrödinger's Syrio"?

Great avatar! I think I just got caught up in the idea that Arya's turn to the dark side started from the beginning would be really cool. I've been convinced that it would not make sense for Syrio = Jaqen. Given that, I don't care if Syrio is still alive or not.

[Roi Woodt]

Other in Law,

Hmm. Realistic. Neat. Simple. Satisfying. No wild flights of fancy, improbably complex convolutions needed offstage to make it work, characters not needed to act in wierd or inexplicably foolish ways. Also seems to be exactly the conclusion the author expects us to reach, and has also indicated that we already have enough information to draw our own conclusions.

I would agree with this, if it was all about Syrio, but the problem is Jaqen, not Syrio. You need a (complex) backstory for why he is in the black cells, why Rorge and Biter (of all people) obey him? Jaqen is your problem, Syrio is ours. We have a story already written in the books, you have to make up a complete new one. And really, i have never heard a satisfactory answer to that (except Syrio ofcourse).

[Aplomb]

You deny wishing Syrio was alive because you like him as a character and think he is the best fighter ever?

I like Syrio well enough, but he's not a favorite character or anything. Want me to prove it? I'm entertaining the possibility that Syrio doesn't exist, at least during the period of time described in the books. I see a chance that he's just another guise of the Faceless Man who later became Jaqen, Alchemist and Pate. Hard to root for a character that as far as I know might not actually exist.

And he was clearly a pretty good fighter. Do you know why I think this? Because I happened to read a chapter where he kicked the asses of five men and squared off against a sixth who had him at a severe disadvantage in terms of weapons and armor. That gives credence to my interpretation that this person could fight well, and I think it is fairly solid evidence, because it was fucking described in detail. Have you contrary evidence he was merely a mediocre combatant that perhaps I overlooked? I think the text itself describes how well he could fight, is it something we really need to discuss?

A normal person when engaged in combat cannot run. A man trying to gain time for someone he likes to run away will not run. A man stepping to the plate and protecting his charge against 6 men among which a fully armoured knight is a hero already.

A normal person when engaged in combat can run. There's an ancient concept for it, called retreat. It predates swords in war. When two lines of armed men meet, do you know how it ends? Not when one side kills the other entirely, but when one side gets the other to run away. It happens in individual combat even to the person who is winning if they deem the risk too great. You can see it today on a schoolyard or in a bar fight, one combatant decides to run or yield before the battle results in serious injury to himself. Stubbornly fighting to the death when clearly overmatched is actually highly unusual, it gets you a rare posthumous medal nowadays. (I honestly think you are just yanking me around, but I'm going with it for now.)

A man trying to gain time for someone he likes to run away will run, when that person has gotten away. (Yank! but that's ok).

A man stepping to the plate and protecting his charge against 6 men among which is a fully armoured knight is a hero already, I agree. And once the reason for that extraordinary heroism has passed (let's say a young girl successfully escapes) that hero can do what most people will do and protect his own life now that he accomplished the goal of his heroism.

A character having served his purpose going in a blaze of glory is better than one just making his last lesson a lie and never appearing again.

Yeah, and those of us not convinced that Syrio is dead are the fantasy fanboys, while you steely eyed realists are looking to see characters commit pointless suicide in a blaze of glory. I'm just saying, simply because I think the text is reasonably ambiguous as to Syrio's fate, don't accuse me of some sort of Syrio worship that you are increasingly revealing yourself to suffer from.

Cool characters with eastern accent are less overpowered and more credible when they aren't all the same guy and have motivations of their own (instead of gravitating around the heroes, for no good reason)

And Arthur Dayne died.

I have absolutely no idea what any of that meant, but I did read it!

[Roi Woodt]

Aplomb,

Even I, as a Syrio=Jaqen (or better Jaqen =Syrio) supporter, think it doesn't make sense if Syrio first escaped and later "locked" himself up again. Even if he is able to free himself easily out of there (which isn't the case), that sounds as a very bad tactic to follow Arya.

[A wilding]

... the problem is Jaqen, not Syrio. You need a (complex) backstory for why he is in the black cells, why Rorge and Biter (of all people) obey him? Jaqen is your problem, Syrio is ours. We have a story already written in the books, you have to make up a complete new one. And really, i have never heard a satisfactory answer to that (except Syrio ofcourse).

We don't know why Jaqen was in jail, so there is a story there that we have not (yet) been told. But it is a not a difficulty, numerous plausible reasons could be imagined (unless you believe that FM are unstoppable supermen who nothing in Westeros can stand up to and who can escape from any prison, no matter how high security - personally I don't).

Exactly the same argument could be made for Rorge and Biter. Until GRRM verbally provided their backstory as a titbit, we had no idea what they were doing there either. But, AFAIK no one ever claimed that this was a gap in the plot that demanded an exotic explanation.

Also, I still see no problem with the idea that a member of an notoriously deadly death cult order of assassins was somehow able to scare a couple of killers and gain an ascendancy over them. He scared the gaolers of KL as well, or they would not have put him in a maximum security cell.

[Shemy]

Aplomb,

Even I, as a Syrio=Jaqen (or better Jaqen =Syrio) supporter, think it doesn't make sense if Syrio first escaped and later "locked" himself up again. Even if he is able to free himself easily out of there (which isn't the case), that sounds as a very bad tactic to follow Arya.

Even moreso because he would need foresight to see that Ned was not going to get sent to the wall and instead get executed, count on Arya acting wild so Yoren could notice her and snatch her.

A lot of people seem to forget things like these in their theories. They have the knowledge there themselves, and make theories with that knowledge, forgetting the characters themselves don't have that knowledge. It'a a common mistake made when we get foresight.

[Shemy]

I like Syrio well enough, but he's not a favorite character or anything. Want me to prove it? I'm entertaining the possibility that Syrio doesn't exist, at least during the period of time described in the books. I see a chance that he's just another guise of the Faceless Man who later became Jaqen, Alchemist and Pate. Hard to root for a character that as far as I know might not actually exist.

I'm entertaining the possibility that Hot pie is really AA incarnate.

Where's my proof in the book you say? Wheres my evidence to back this theory up, where Martin lays hints for its readers to figure out?

Who needs these things when you can have imagination!

Just think, hot pie makes the sword by shoving the sword through a hot pie, sacrificing the meat by stabbing it and sobbing hot pie while doing so!

I imagine if he does this he attains the blade, and once he has that blade why we'll know hes AA incarnate.

:P

The problem with all your Theories about Syrio being Jaqen is there is no references anywhere in the entire books to make the connection that Syrio was a faceless man, and that Jaqen was Syrio. You can speculate, and imagine, but all of Martins stuff that he leaves us to figure out is in the text and we just need to piece it together with the subtle clues. R+A =J, Gravedigger = Hound, look at those. THOSE are subtle clues. YOURS are imagination. Without the text it is always going to remain a theory..

Yeah, and those of us not convinced that Syrio is dead are the fantasy fanboys, while you steely eyed realists are looking to see characters commit pointless suicide in a blaze of glory. I'm just saying, simply because I think the text is reasonably ambiguous as to Syrio's fate, don't accuse me of some sort of Syrio worship that you are increasingly revealing yourself to suffer from.

You make a valid point that Syrio standing and fighting is kind of cliche, but it would be even more cliche to miraculously survive.

I have absolutely no idea what any of that meant, but I did read it!

It means that Ser Arthur Dayne and others had the chance to flee, but they stood and fought instead.

[Roi Woodt]

We don't know why Jaqen was in jail, so there is a story there that we have not (yet) been told. But it is a not a difficulty, numerous plausible reasons could be imagined (unless you believe that FM are unstoppable supermen who nothing in Westeros can stand up to and who can escape from any prison, no matter how high security - personally I don't).

Exactly the same argument could be made for Rorge and Biter. Until GRRM verbally provided their backstory as a titbit, we had no idea what they were doing there either. But, AFAIK no one ever claimed that this was a gap in the plot that demanded an exotic explanation.

Indeed, but we assumed that they were there because of the crimes they commited and in the case of Rorge and Biter we can imagine them ravaging Kings Landing, plundering, raping, biting, etc. But now, it appears, one of those three is a faceless man, he doesn't seem to do those kind of things. From what I read, you do not get easily in a black cell, treason is one and crimes like we can imagine Rorge and Biter commited, are another. Did we see a royal character killed, or another noble man? Have we heard about anything suspicious that could point to a faceless man being captured? I don't think it is as easily explained as you seem to think. Why is he in this locked car, probably because he is a monster, not because he is a direct danger to someone important in KingsLanding. Because, they would have seen him hanged, here in the South.

Also, I still see no problem with the idea that a member of an notoriously deadly death cult order of assassins was somehow able to scare a couple of killers and gain an ascendancy over them. He scared the gaolers of KL as well, or they would not have put him in a maximum security cell.

Why would he scare the goalers, that seems like a stupid thing to do.

[Jojen's Ghost]

Never are we told that Trant defeated Syrio or that he is dead.

It's clearly an unresolved and unresolvable issue, by obvious design, unless GRRM address it in the future. I'm not sure why people are coming down so hard and so absolutely on either side, but it's amusing to watch.

Agreed. It's inconclusive. The evidence suggests that Syrio could not withstand Trant's assault, but there is room left for other outcomes as well.

However, didn't Martin once state that Gandalf should have stayed dead? Does a miraculous reappearance of Syrio's character really jive with that sentiment?

[Jakob Lightbringer]

IV: Syrio is not a Faceless Man at all and just escapes normally

I think it is funny how you save this possibility for last, when simply invalidating this one possibility renders all of the more complicated scenarios moot.

Syrio is still alive sure does sound a lot less appealing to me now. He's either abandoned Arya due to the necessity of survival -- or he's become a Deus Ex Machina. Yeah, I think I prefer him better dead after looking at it that way. ;)

[A wilding]

Indeed, but we assumed that they were there because of the crimes they commited and in the case of Rorge and Biter we can imagine them ravaging Kings Landing, plundering, raping, biting, etc. But now, it appears, one of those three is a faceless man, he doesn't seem to do those kind of things. From what I read, you do not get easily in a black cell, treason is one and crimes like we can imagine Rorge and Biter commited, are another. Did we see a royal character killed, or another noble man? Have we heard about anything suspicious that could point to a faceless man being captured? I don't think it is as easily explained as you seem to think.

Faceless Men attempt and often succeed in murdering people. They are also certainly capable of pulling some scary tricks. Also they are apparently egalitarian enough to kill people of any social status. We know from Longwaters that the gaolers considered Jaqen dangerous. It doesn't seem a stretch to assume that commoners considered dangerous enough are held in the Black Cells even if they have not murdered to tried to murder someone important or been responsible for some sort of reign of terror.

What's so difficult to believe about Jaqen getting caught killing or trying to kill someone not plot critical enough for us to have heard of the attempt, and in the process doing something scary enough to make his captors think he was very dangerous?

Or indeed, how about him getting caught doing something illegal other than actually killing someone? For example he is currently infiltrating the Citadel without showing any sign of killing anyone important; it is not too difficult to imagine him being unlucky and getting detected and locked up as a result.

[Roi Woodt]

A Wildling,

The biggest problem I have is that he locked in cage which animals as Rorge and Biter, he is also mentioned as one of them (dangerous prisoners). He already is there for a certain amount of time and as we know him, he is very civilized; he actually managed to talk himself out of a burning wagon. What did he do down there in the black cells? He is still there after all, do they keep their prisoners there forever…? However, the goaler thinks he is dangerous, he mentioned him with the others. Did he see him getting caught? or do you think this intelligent faceless man is somehow doing something to give the impression of being dangerous?

And what if Rorge and Biter were already imprisoned, what did he do to make them obey him? Faceless man tricks? Like what, for what reason? Biter, as we have heard, is raised as a fighting dog, Rorge is his “faithfull fatherâ€. They are not the types that can be bullied. As a matter in fact, they obey him, even it’s the least sensible thing to do, why? Probably because they have seen Jaqen do things that are worse than being killed, they doesn’t seem the people that are afraid of death. And what could that be? What trick? You need a backstory for this to have it make sense. Some trick is not an answer, name one.

Another, his appearance, if he was in KingsLanding, as Jaqen, to do mysterious faceless man stuff, why didn’t he take over a face which attracts much less attention. It absolutely doesn’t make sense. He takes over Pate’s body in the citadel, because that gives him some camouflage, what was he thinking in KingsLanding, to run about as a Jaqen H’garr. That’s another thing that doesn’t make sense. Explain that as well.

Btw, all of these thing fit if Syrio took over Jaqen's face.

[mormont]

First off, I'm not sure I understand the issue about 'what did Jaqen do to be put in the Black Cells?' Rorge and Biter were in there for running a dog- and bear-baiting pit, unpleasant but hardly on the level of assassinating a prominent nobleman or merchant. Whatever Jaqen was arrested for doesn't need to be any more sinister than that. Even attempting an assassination of someone pretty minor would probably suffice.

Second (and despite my own promise not to come back to this :P) that we aren't directly told in so many words that Syrio is dead doesn't mean that is not the default assumption. If the theory that he survived is not proved, we can safely conclude that he is dead.

If you really want to stretch a point, we could (I suppose) argue that his fate is 'uncertain' but it appears to me this is functionally equivalent to 'dead', given his subsequent total absence from the series, the lack of any reason to assume he will reappear and the strong evidence against his escape. IOW, it would IMO merely be splitting hairs not to presume him to be dead. It certainly cannot be pretended even for a moment that 'Syrio is dead' is (as a proposition) comparable to 'Syrio is alive'.

[Roi Woodt]

Mormont,

First off, I'm not sure I understand the issue about 'what did Jaqen do to be put in the Black Cells?' Rorge and Biter were in there for running a dog- and bear-baiting pit, unpleasant but hardly on the level of assassinating a prominent nobleman or merchant. Whatever Jaqen was arrested for doesn't need to be any more sinister than that. Even attempting an assassination of someone pretty minor would probably suffice

.

Why would they put someone in the black cells, if he only attempted to assassinate someone minor? Or are there no other murderers in prison?

And it’s not only the crime. I can image Rorge and Biter firstly being put in one of the upper cells for the crime they committed. However, beasts as they are, they couldn’t be handled, and were eventually put in the black cells. That’s how I imaged how they arrived there, that’s why the goaler knows they are dangerous, he had to deal with the scum. Not because of their original crime, but because of being dangerous for the guards. I cannot imagine that by Jaqen, he would realize that such a thing wouldn’t do him any good.

[mormont]

Why would they put someone in the black cells, if he only attempted to assassinate someone minor? Or are there no other murderers in prison?

I don't know. Are there?

We know very little about what gets you put in the Black Cells (or the other cells in the Red Keep, for that matter). That makes it very easy to hypothesise a set of rules about them that makes it hard to explain why Jaqen is in there. But the thing to remember is that the difficulty only exists in your mind, according to the rules you have created to fill that gap.

What we know is that very few criminals are put in there: that the only ones we know of who were put there for a crime other than treason were Rorge and Biter: and that they were guilty of running a bear- and dog-fighting pit in Flea Bottom. Therefore the baseline assumption has to be that a crime of that seriousness is all that's needed to account for Jaqen's presence.

And it’s not only the crime. I can image Rorge and Biter firstly being put in one of the upper cells for the crime they committed. However, beasts as they are, they couldn’t be handled, and were eventually put in the black cells. That’s how I imaged how they arrived there, that’s why the goaler knows they are dangerous, he had to deal with the scum. Not because of their original crime, but because of being dangerous for the guards. I cannot imagine that by Jaqen, he would realize that such a thing wouldn’t do him any good.

IIRC there was another assumption like this earlier, based on Jaqen being smart and the other two being near-feral and unthinking. Unfortunately, it doesn't fit the facts. Rorge is smart: certainly smart enough to know when to play by the rules, and has enough control of Biter to make sure he does too. If not, neither of them would still be alive.

[Roi Woodt]

Mormont,

What we know is that very few criminals are put in there: that the only ones we know of who were put there for a crime other than treason were Rorge and Biter: and that they were guilty of running a bear- and dog-fighting pit in Flea Bottom. Therefore the baseline assumption has to be that a crime of that seriousness is all that's needed to account for Jaqen's presence.

Only three people down there, besides the treasoners. And you say all crime that is needed is running a fighting pit? If that was all, wouldn't it be very crowded in there?

I don't know. Are there?

This is not the North, and KingsLanding is not a small town. I think it would be weird if there were no murderers in prison, but that's only an opinion of course.

IIRC there was another assumption like this earlier, based on Jaqen being smart and the other two being near-feral and unthinking. Unfortunately, it doesn't fit the facts. Rorge is smart: certainly smart enough to know when to play by the rules, and has enough control of Biter to make sure he does too. If not, neither of them would still be alive.

I agree Rorge is the smarter one, but don’t you agree that these two are exactly the kind of people that get themselves even further in trouble when they are already in prison? They are dangerous, according the goaler, and that is not because they ran this fighting pit in Flee Bottom, that doesn’t fit by any rule. It's probably (my opinion) because of their behaviour.

[A wilding]

And it’s not only the crime. I can image Rorge and Biter firstly being put in one of the upper cells for the crime they committed. However, beasts as they are, they couldn’t be handled, and were eventually put in the black cells. That’s how I imaged how they arrived there, that’s why the goaler knows they are dangerous, he had to deal with the scum. Not because of their original crime, but because of being dangerous for the guards. I cannot imagine that by Jaqen, he would realize that such a thing wouldn’t do him any good.

Which actually raises a new possibility. Having been caught and placed in the normal cells, 'Jaqen' uses some FM trick to attempt to escape but miscalculates and/or is unlucky, is recaptured, and gets put in the Black Cells. Note that I certainly don't think this is the only possibility, it is just another one. I agree with Mormont about you inventing rules not found in the text to make a FM's presence in the Black Cells inexplicable, so as to support your theory.

And I really don't see why the only possible trick that a FM could use to scare Rorge is the particular one of killing someone and taking their face.

As for the difficulty of a FM assuming the persona of Jaqen rather than someone less noticeable, it seems to me that this applies in spades when he not only deliberately assumes the face of someone so distinctive, but also of someone so distinctive who is known to be a particularly dangerous criminal! For what it is worth, I suspect he took the Jaqen persona because the FM do not have an unlimited number of faces, and are probably short of Westeros ones.