Is Syrio dead?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Given the frequency with which Martin's characters appear to face certain death and then are revealed to still be alive (cliff-hangers) -- or otherwise animated (resurrections) -- or in some cases not even in the deadly danger that they appeared to be in, after all, due to the vague descriptions of unreliable points of view -- one would think he would be particularly understanding about questions regarding his character's mortality or the notion of a possibility that they somehow escaped their apparent but ambiguously described fate.

While that is understandable to a point, those other cases are very different. Either the misdirection is corrected in very short order (Arya's axe in the head, Bran and Rickon's deaths) or if they are longstanding they are near universally treated as unresolved mysteries (Benjen). This example is not quite as old as Benjen's disappearance, but the reader has gotten more recent hints of Benjen's survival (the cloak buried near the Fist of the First Men in aCoK) to keep hope alive. The opposite has occurred with Syrio; the sole mentions of him since then lead the reader further toward the obvious conclusion, rather than offer any hope. Arya continues to think him dead, Cersei speaks of him as a mere nuisance that got in the way, Meryn is alive and well, Longwaters rules out the possibility that he was ever taken by explicitly detailing all of the recent residents of the Black cells.

Missed this earlier:

IHS,

Again, you miss the point. Full stick or half stick, first blow or fifth blow, in the presence of Arya or not in the presence of Arya. All totally irrelevant. A hand-to-hand combat is not a matter of Syrio-must-win-with-the-first-blow-and-a-full-stick-and-in-the-presence-of-witnesses or else he's dead.

Um, yes the weapon being used is exactly the point. Meryn's head is completely protected by a steel helmet, very probably with a mail coif and padded cloth coif under it. A mace, warhammer, halberd, or poleaxe might very well be able to smash or dent that steel and cause a head injury or concussion. A wooden practice sword simply isn't. And we're told outright that it did nothing:

"In a heartbeat, he had bounced blows off the knights temple elbow and throat, the wood ringing against the metal of helm, gauntlet, and gorget. Ser Meryn advanced, Syrio backed away."

A wooden practice sword that's been cut in half has less weight behind it and less length to give it momentum. The only possible way Syrio could hurt him with that broken stick is to jam it through the vision slit in his visor and blind him. But lo and behold, Meryn's eyes are explicitly described the next time we see him, and there's no trace of an injury.

[iheartseverus]

Reading through this thread, I keep thinking of these words by Bertrand Russell:

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."

Both camps here, the dead-Syrio camp and the live-Syrio camp, fall into this pattern. We don't know for sure either way, of course, only time will tell. But meanwhile everybody (including me!) offers point-by-point analysis of one side or the other while ridiculing and dismissing the input of the other camp.

As for my 'analysis' of the situation--Syrio is alive!!

[Guest Other-in-law]

Bertrand Russell would have totally concluded that Syrio was dead on the evidence. He was no Wittgenstein, unwilling to dismiss the possibility that there's an invisible rhinoceros in the room.

[Stalker]

Reading through this thread, I keep thinking of these words by Bertrand Russell:

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."

Russell is right, as usual, even if it is a generalisation. But we could turn to mosre useful questions, like:

Is it theoretically possible for Syrio to have survived?

Do we have any reason to belive that he did?

Both camps here, the dead-Syrio camp and the live-Syrio camp, fall into this pattern. We don't know for sure either way, of course, only time will tell. But meanwhile everybody (including me!) offers point-by-point analysis of one side or the other while ridiculing and dismissing the input of the other camp.

As for my 'analysis' of the situation--Syrio is alive!!

And you're in the live Syrio camp.

[iheartseverus]

And you're in the live Syrio camp.

Yes. uhhh, I knew that, actually. P:

[Aplomb]

I don't consider myself in the Syrio is alive camp. I do consider myself in the camp that believes it is an open question, one that can't be definitively answered, despite the pro-dead side arguing that the death is certain.

Could Syrio be dead? Certainly. Trant appeared to have the upper hand, and we haven't seen sight of him since. There is nothing in the text that rules it out.

Could Syrio be alive? Yes, again there is nothing in the text that rules it out, as long as you accept the possibility that "Syrio" was merely a guise of a Faceless Man all along.

I see the pro-dead side constructing a lot of unnecessary obstructions to the possibility that Syrio = Jaquen, and making circular arguments.

For example, to be convinced that Syrio could not defeat Trant largely assumes the issue we are discussing: Syrio is in fact no more and no less than Syrio purports to be, and not a Faceless Man. Yes, if Syrio was exactly who he said he was, it would be unlikely that he could prevail against Trant in the circumstances Arya last saw them, and would not have run away from even certain death. But what if "Syrio" wasn't in truth Syrio but instead was a Faceless Man? We haven't seen the full power of these guys but we know they can do some incredible things with illusions, tricks, drugs, etc. Also, if "Syrio" were a Faceless Man, he would be free to do what "Syrio" professed he would never do: simply run away after Arya gets clear (and change his face if Trant pursues). Is it so incredible to believe that an oaf like Trant could be overcome or left behind by a Faceless Man? This possibility doesn't rely on fantastical coincidence, elaborate backstory, or anything else crazy. If "Syrio" were a Faceless Man, you'd expect him to come out on top over Trant -- he's a freakin' Faceless Man!

The other main objection is, due to Black Cell security, timelines and whatnot, it is simply impossible for Syrio to be Jaqen! Except, it isn't, it's quite easy. Forget the Black Cells if you see them as an insurmountable problem (which incidently I don't, but whatever) -- "Syrio" the Faceless Man need never have entered them. The Faceless Man may have taken over Jaqen's identity after Yoren took him out of the Black Cells but before the party left KL. Is that so wild, so implausible, so crazy we must dismiss it out of hand? Why?

If you accept the possibility that "Syrio" was a Faceless Man all along, nothing else gets in the way of the possibility of that Faceless Man still being alive. Arya thinks Syrio is dead? That's what "Syrio" certainly wanted her to believe, and for all intents "Syrio" did die when he became someone else. Trant is alive? The Faceless Man had no reason to kill him once Arya was safely away. Nothing else in the text precludes the possibility that a Faceless Man pretending to be Syrio survived to become Jaqen, or even makes it highly unlikely. It doesn't make it more likely than not that Syrio survived, but it is a valid possibility that does not require incredible gymnastics to reach.

So I'm 50-50 on the issue, the text supports both views and precludes neither view.

Interestingly, to my mind one of the most persuasive (but not conclusive) things pointing to Syrio = Jaqen is that Jaqen identified Arya Stark by name at Harrenhal. I suppose there are several ways he could have learned that, but the easiest explanation for that is that in another guise he was her dancing instructor.

[Errant Bard]

If "Syrio" were a Faceless Man, you'd expect him to come out on top over Trant -- he's a freakin' Faceless Man!

No, just no. Faceless men may have tricks, but they still are not comic book ninjas. If Syrio was a faceless man, he'd have actually less chances to win than a genuine specialized fighter. To make a light analogy, it's not because D&D rogues can backstab for massive amounts of damage, or conceal themselves in shadows that they are likely to win a duel against a paladin. Arya's own training shows this: the FM don't learn to be invincible (that's impossible in Martin-world anyway) but to act, picking a bit of everything, but not really mastering anything.

Is that so wild, so implausible, so crazy we must dismiss it out of hand? Why?

Because he could have taken anyone's face, then, especially one of someone who isn't chained to a cart, or good grief, not taken a face at all and just enrolled in Yoren's band, or passed off as one of the gold cloak to exit the city, or escaped on his own, or done almost anything else, that would have made more sense.

Interestingly, to my mind one of the most persuasive (but not conclusive) things pointing to Syrio = Jaqen is that Jaqen identified Arya Stark by name at Harrenhal. I suppose there are several ways he could have learned that, but the easiest explanation for that is that in another guise he was her dancing instructor.

Being another person and jumping through hoops to get chained through war-torn country is simpler than being observant, noticing Yoren protected the girl, that she is a girl, that she escaped KL the day the hand was killed, that she thought the gold cloak were looking for her, that she had high-class lessons in fencing (water-dancing is not a skill you acquire in westerosi streets), that her personal kill list includes very important names, all anti-Stark, that she is the age of the Stark girl the Lannister are looking for and that her previous alias sounded like Arya?

Right.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The other main objection is, due to Black Cell security, timelines and whatnot, it is simply impossible for Syrio to be Jaqen! Except, it isn't, it's quite easy. Forget the Black Cells if you see them as an insurmountable problem (which incidently I don't, but whatever) -- "Syrio" the Faceless Man need never have entered them. The Faceless Man may have taken over Jaqen's identity after Yoren took him out of the Black Cells but before the party left KL. Is that so wild, so implausible, so crazy we must dismiss it out of hand? Why?

Yes. It's ludicrous because there's no benefit and severe drawbacks to such a plan...Jaqen came extremely close to dying because of being shackled to a cart in a burning building. What gain would there be to deliberately masquerading as a chained NW enlistee that couldn't be gained just as easily by being one of the many NW enlistees that were unchained? None, that's what.

Additionally this whole scenario does all sorts of other question begging, such as 'how did they get the real Jaqen out of those chains without anyone knowing? Is he still runnning around somewhere with the identical face as the prisoner, or was he killed? If he was killed, how did they dispose of his body, again without anyone noticing? And if Jaqen had the means of opening those manacles, why did he nearly die in that fire?'

It's worth bearing in mind that these prisoners were very likely being watched the whole time (they were obviously considered very dangerous, and death-row inmates, too) by Yoren, the other enlistees, probably by Gold Cloaks, too.

If you accept the possibility that "Syrio" was a Faceless Man all along, nothing else gets in the way of the possibility of that Faceless Man still being alive.

Except for the slightest bit of common sense or critical thinking.

[iheartseverus]

Good post, Aplomb, thanks. I also add that the Syrio-is-dead camp keeps repeating that because Trant sliced Syrio's lead-weighted stick in half, that left Syrio utterly defenseless. Not so, not so. He still had the other half of that lead-weighted stick and he still had his dancing master skills. I recall Tyrion (I think) telling archers at the Battle of the Blackwater to aim for the underarms of armored knights since coverage is weakest there. Syrio would certainly know that, as well. And that jagged-edged lead-weighted stick would still be a weapon to be reckoned with in such a master's hand.

LOL, I admit that when I keep saying SYRIO IS ALIVE! I'm actually just tweaking the Syrio-is-dead camp for their booming portentous certainty. I don't know if he's alive, I don't know if he's dead. But, like you, I posit that either outcome is reasonably possible.

[Aplomb]

Well, EB in both of those cases you are arguing what makes more sense to you. Since my argument is that it is possible, even if it isn't the most likely possibility, that Syrio (meaning "Syrio") is alive, I guess I win!

Also, if you wonder why Syrio would put up with being chained to the cart and dragged through the countryside, why aren't you asking why Jaqen allowed himself to into that situation? There's no question a Faceless Man was in that situation, and it seems pretty unlikely that a Faceless Man would be in that situation against his will.

[dancer]

Yeah when reading Arya's chapters, I was under the impression that Jaqen H'ghar wasn't really bothered about escaping, as he could have obviously done it had he so wanted.

[Errant Bard]

Good post, Aplomb, thanks. I also add that the Syrio-is-dead camp keeps repeating that because Trant sliced Syrio's lead-weighted stick in half, that left Syrio utterly defenseless. Not so, not so. He still had the other half of that lead-weighted stick and he still had his dancing master skills. I recall Tyrion (I think) telling archers at the Battle of the Blackwater to aim for the underarms of armored knights since coverage is weakest there. Syrio would certainly know that, as well. And that jagged-edged lead-weighted stick would still be a weapon to be reckoned with in such a master's hand.

Ah, but the thing is, he had those skills before too, on top of a full stick with lead core, and what did this "master's hand" manage to accomplish with it? Getting the stick sliced in half because he could not dodge everything.

So now you are arguing that he can be more nimble and more dangerous with less than he had when he was driven back and unable to hurt his opponent whatsoever. Your logic is backward.

[Guest Other-in-law]

There's no question a Faceless Man was in that situation, and it seems pretty unlikely that a Faceless Man would be in that situation against his will.

:rolleyes: Yeah, because faceless men have armoured skin, the strength of a thousand men, heat vision, teleportation, and the ability to destroy entire planets with a single glance. They cannot be stopped EVAH!

IHS,

I recall Tyrion (I think) telling archers at the Battle of the Blackwater to aim for the underarms of armored knights since coverage is weakest there. Syrio would certainly know that, as well. And that jagged-edged lead-weighted stick would still be a weapon to be reckoned with in such a master's hand.

I don't get the impression that you are reading responses to your posts, but the weaker chainmail armour under the gaps of plate has been exploited by Bronn against Vardis Egen, and by Duncan the Tall against Lucas the Longinch...but they had steel weapons! It doesn't matter how fast Syrio is, he's not going to cut through steel with wood.

[iheartseverus]

I don't get the impression that you are reading responses to your posts,

Wrong. I've read every single post in this thread, thoroughly and carefully. Just haven't seen anything yet that closes the issue for me either way. Sarcasm, sneering and ridicule do not a sound argument make. *shrugs*

[Errant Bard]

Since my argument is that it is possible, even if it isn't the most likely possibility, that Syrio (meaning "Syrio") is alive, I guess I win!

Oh, of course, but as has been said before, this is a work of fiction where everything is possible. You'll excuse me if I argue about reasonable possibilities considering the story's style, the environment, the consistency constraints and the implication of such theories, and argue about what makes an interpretation overwhelmingly more probable than another.

Also, if you wonder why Syrio would put up with being chained to the cart and dragged through the countryside, why aren't you asking why Jaqen allowed himself to into that situation? There's no question a Faceless Man was in that situation, and it seems pretty unlikely that a Faceless Man would be in that situation against his will.

Since I don't suscribe to the theory that Faceless Men are supermen, and think he was chained in black cells then in that cart entirely against his will and as such nearly died, I don't have to ask myself this, but since you think otherwise, pray tell me why he chose to be chained rather than to be free? (and don't say it's to stay with the Night's Watch band, since he obviously could take anyone's face, or enrol as himself)

[Guest Other-in-law]

Wrong. I've read every single post in this thread, thoroughly and carefully. Just haven't seen anything yet that closes the issue for me either way. Sarcasm, sneering and ridicule do not a sound argument make. *shrugs*

So do you continue to believe that Syrio could have knocked Meryn out by clanging his half wooden sword against his helm, even though he had already failed at doing anything whatsoever when he struck him with the entire sword? That was a substantive flaw in your argument that several people have pointed out, but I haven't seen any admission to that effect. Nor for, that matter did you address the actual meat of my post in that last response either...at all. Do you still maintain that someone can push a handheld piece of wood through chainmail?

And it's a bit hypocritical to complain about the other side being sarcastic or sneering when you've posted gems like:

By my reckoning, this makes 3,497,682,403,622,817,559,343,288,001 times someone has used this exact same silly analogy to ridicule other members' opinions.

[Aplomb]

:rolleyes: Yeah, because faceless men have armoured skin, the strength of a thousand men, heat vision, teleportation, and the ability to destroy entire planets with a single glance. They cannot be stopped EVAH!

IHS,

Why are you being so ridiculous? No one said FM have infinite superpowers.

What are they notable for? Committing serious crimes without getting caught. That's their thing, that's the reason for all their tricks and skills -- get them into places normal people can't go, make difficult, untraceable kills, and get out undetected and unsuspected.

You think Jaqen was a Faceless Man who was so stupid and unskilled in Faceless Man tricks that he got caught committing a crime and was being held against his will first in the Black Cellars and then with Yoren? When Faceless Men are people whose whole training and skill set is to avoid exactly something like that from happening?

Maybe I'm crazy, but it makes more sense to me that the Faceless Man was right where he wanted to be, which is what Faceless Men do. Can't tell you why he wanted to be there, because Martin hasn't revealed it yet. And whatever reason Jaqen the Faceless Man had to be there, "Syrio" the Faceless Man would also have that reason, if they are the same person.

[iheartseverus]

So do you continue to believe that Syrio could have knocked Meryn out by clanging his half wooden sword against his helm, even though he had already failed at doing anything whatsoever when he struck him with the entire sword? That was a substantive flaw in your argument that several people have pointed out, but I haven't seen any admission to that effect.

I don't know that that's what Syrio did, simply threw it out there as a possibility. Neither do you know what actually happened or how it actually ended. Neither does anyone else.

] And it's a bit hypocritical to complain about the other side being sarcastic or sneering when you've posted gems like:

I wasn't complaining. Merely pointing out that sneering and ridiculing whoever disagrees with you accomplishes nothing in actually proving your case. And I'll repeat that 3,497,682,403,622,817,559,343,288,001 times. :lol:

[Errant Bard]

Wrong. I've read every single post in this thread, thoroughly and carefully. Just haven't seen anything yet that closes the issue for me either way. Sarcasm, sneering and ridicule do not a sound argument make. *shrugs*

Maybe you could answer those unsound arguments, then, it should be easy, instead of repeating that anything is possible and that it could have happened, and then only responding to bits of text that have nothing to do with the subject at hand, like now.

So, explain why half a stick is more efficient than a full stick, in the hand of a guy trained for sword fighting and not blunt dagger fighting, or how a blunt stick is going to make any damage considering the low penetration factor such a think would have even against naked skin, how Syrio would defend better when he cannot parry anymore, and in the end, why Trant is alive and well, if Syrio was able to inflict that much damage.

[dancer]

Considering the amount of skill needed for Jaqen to carry out Arya's deaths, I find it very unbelievable that he would be in the position of being in the black cells against his will. Couldn't he just morph his face into his Gaoler and sneak up behind them and strangle them or something?