Ned Naive? Littlefinger Trustworthy?

[bearisland]

I was initially shocked that they aged up Ned so much by casting Sean Bean. I think it was a function of my own age - Ned is supposed to be younger than I am, and instead, he's older! Shock and horror! I suppose if Ms. Fairley had been cast before Sean Bean I would probably have been dismayed by her age for exactly the same reason as I initially was disappointed by Bean's casting, though. I think of the Catelyn from the books as a bit of a Mean Girl, but played by someone who looks more my own age I'm sure I'll view her differently. And I think Ned's naivete will look much more foolish from a man the age of Sean Bean than a man barely out of his 20s. It will be very interesting to see how the aging-up affects viewers' opinions of the characters - I'm sure I'm not the only one whose original views of Ned and Catelyn were shaped by their youthfulness.

[The SmilingKnight]

Ned wasnt naive. He was just too honorable even though he had a pretty good grasp of the world and necessities of politics and game of thrones.

It was his choice - not a character flaw.

[Wolfheart]

I was initially shocked that they aged up Ned so much by casting Sean Bean. I think it was a function of my own age - Ned is supposed to be younger than I am, and instead, he's older! Shock and horror! I suppose if Ms. Fairley had been cast before Sean Bean I would probably have been dismayed by her age for exactly the same reason as I initially was disappointed by Bean's casting, though. I think of the Catelyn from the books as a bit of a Mean Girl, but played by someone who looks more my own age I'm sure I'll view her differently. And I think Ned's naivete will look much more foolish from a man the age of Sean Bean than a man barely out of his 20s. It will be very interesting to see how the aging-up affects viewers' opinions of the characters - I'm sure I'm not the only one whose original views of Ned and Catelyn were shaped by their youthfulness.

When I saw the teaser image of Sean as Ned in beautiful high res. I was a little dismayed to see how aged he looked, late 40s-ish. I was guessing, before any teaser or images came out, that they would stick to a more youthful look even with Bean being older. They did it for Boromir. Bean as Boromir is exactly why I thought Bean really could pull off that role. He looked it. Just dye his hair darker. Grow Boromirs goatee into a close beard, throw in some speckaling of grey from stress and voila.

Those darn age wrinkles.

[bearisland]

Ned wasnt naive. He was just too honorable even though he had a pretty good grasp of the world and necessities of politics and game of thrones.

It was his choice - not a character flaw.

I agree with you overall and it's why I like Ned so much. I do, however, think his endgame moves had a certain innocence that would have been more plausible in a younger man.

[Alexia]

I do, however, think his endgame moves had a certain innocence that would have been more plausible in a younger man.

I agree but I also have trouble believing something like that out of a man in his mid-30s. I'm significantly younger than Ned and on my first readthrough I knew there was no way in hell the woman who killed Jon Arryn (I did believe that, at the time) and participated in an attempt to kill a 7 year old child was going to tuck her tail between her legs and run. And even if, by some miracle, she chose to do so there was no way in hell her father and brothers were going to allow it to happen. The only thing is that I thought GRRM was going to rescue Ned at the last moment somehow.

I would have found Ned's behavior more believable in Robb or in a man in his early 20s.

[Padraig]

I'm significantly younger than Ned and on my first readthrough I knew there was no way in hell the woman who killed Jon Arryn (I did believe that, at the time) and participated in an attempt to kill a 7 year old child was going to tuck her tail between her legs and run.

In the end though, his real mistake was trusting LF (and he is not alone there). It was LF that delivered him to Cersei.

[Alexia]

In the end though, his real mistake was trusting LF (and he is not alone there). It was LF that delivered him to Cersei.

One real mistake of several that cost him his chances and perhaps the most understandable. The others included rejecting Renly's offers of help, not having vital information about Janos Slynt and his interactions with Stannis, and telling Cersei he knew her secrets and then leaving her free to move against him after, among others.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

One real mistake of several that cost him his chances and perhaps the most understandable. The others included rejecting Renly's offers of help, not having vital information about Janos Slynt and his interactions with Stannis, and telling Cersei he knew her secrets and then leaving her free to move against him after, among others.

I think all of those weigh more heavily when compared to just trusting Littlefinger, lots of people trust Littlefinger (stupidly, I may add) but some of the stuff Ned did was just plain...dumb.

Sorry, I like the guy and all but...man...Fred Merkle screwed up less than him (and that's saying something)

[Sekhmet]

No matter what age Eddard, he was not experienced in court politics. He'd been isolated at Winterfell, not the snake pit of King's Landing. In Winterfell, he could be the Stark and blindly honorable. It has always been my take that GRRM painted Ned Stark's demise as taking him out of his own environment. He just couldn't adapt quickly enough. And with all the trouble coming from the north, Westeros will miss him even more.

[bearisland]

I would say that Ned's problem was not so much one of trust - he had Littlefinger and Cersei pegged fairly clearly as evil people. I think the real issue is that his predictions of how they, as evil people, would act in response to his own actions were completely off-base. He failed to understand his enemies. As Alexia says, this would be excusable in someone of Robb's age, but I think many people would view it as a character flaw in someone older. And the older he gets, the sillier his behaviour looks. I could believe a very innocent 30something making Ned's mistakes and cringe for him. But a 50ish veteran? I think that degree of innocence in a man that mature is going to make Ned look a bit deranged.

[Halfhand]

I really don't think the general audience is going to be nearly as analytical about this whole thing as those who are intimately knowledgeable of the source material.

[Padraig]

I would say that Ned's problem was not so much one of trust - he had Littlefinger and Cersei pegged fairly clearly as evil people.

If LF had brought him the City Guard, how would Ned have failed? It really is the principle reason why he lost. All the others were mistakes but red herrings in the end.

And Cersei and LF aren't evil. That's not the kind of book GRRM is writing. Ned did have Cersei pegged though but he wasn't prepared to have the blood of kids on his hands. So he played the game as far as it went and involved LF. Sure, trusting LF was a bad choice but everyone trusts LF. Everyone makes that bad choice. That's the point of LF.

Really, I honestly think people fail to understand Ned when they deride him for been stupid or innocent.

[daimonion]

I don't really recall: Was LF portrayed as trustworthy before he betrays Ned? It seems important that his betrayal should come as a big surprise as possible, and hence making Ned look a little less dumb.

[Ran]

Littlefinger specifically tells Ned that he shouldn't trust him, actually. Now, Littlefinger than proceeds to seemingly help Ned out in his quest to discover the truth, pointing out Cersei's spies, tracking down one of Robert's by blows, and so on. But I think what's most memorable is that he warned Ned and Ned ultimately fell under his sway anyways, taking Littlefinger's warning as little more than a kind of self-promotion.

But, in the end, Littlefinger did do various useful things for Ned, and so on. Not so very strange that he would trust him in a pinch when he had no other allies.

[daimonion]

Him beeing given a warning not to trust LF by LF himself, does not really seem like much to worry about. Wouldn't it be natural to just interpret it as a joke?

I mean it's not like LF did not want Ned to trust him...

[Alexia]

Really, I honestly think people fail to understand Ned when they deride him for been stupid or innocent.

I can understand taking umbrage at the idea that Ned is stupid but how can his actions be called anything other than innocent or naive? He made a decision to tell Cersei the secret he thinks she killed the last Hand over, and he KNOWS she tried to kill his own 7 year old child over. I would say that the level of willful blindness that Ned exhibited is to the point where calling it innocence is actually being quite kind. What else would you call it? (serious question) If I were in Cersei's shoes, I can't see reacting to Ned's threats differently than she did except I would have had Sansa and Arya seized immediately after Robert's hunting "accident."

This is Ned's problem - he never paused a moment and thought, "I'm Cersei Lannister. I've had an affair for at least 12 years with my brother and have 3 children by him. I've kept it secret for at least 12 years. I killed the last Hand to protect this secret and attempted to murder the current Hand's son as well. The current Hand tells me to leave town because he knows my secret and he's going to tattle on me. What do I do?" He should have looked at it from Renly's perspective as well.

Janos Slynt is a real problem too, right after LF. He's stupid but I'm not sure he's that stupid. If he knows that they are arresting and unseating Joffrey, he can figure out who is next in line with a claim. Even if LF hadn't betrayed Ned, there's a most excellent chance that Janos would have accepted LF's gold and then gone straight to Cersei. Ned needs to know things like this about the man who controls 6,000 armed men in the city! So I can't agree that trusting LF was Ned's biggest mistake: he didn't have vital information, he refused to face facts. The only thing that could have won over the situation for him, even with LF's support (which he didn't get in part for the utter implausibility of his plans and LF's lack of a death wish) would have been having his own personal Melisandre there working black magic.

I think Ned's biggest mistake is telling Cersei he knew and then leaving her free. Either have her arrested and bundle her on a boat with her kids or go to Robert with the information.

[Ran]

Suffice it to say, Littlefinger is simply not presented as a trustworthy figure. He gives you pieces of the truth because those are the very best seeds for lies.

I don't know of any one who has ever said, "I was _SO_ shocked when Littlefinger betrayed Ned!" I certainly don't think viewers will be left with any illusion that Littlefinger is trustworthy, either, but they'll accept that as things come to a head, it's logical that he's the only person Ned can turn to.

[Alexia]

I don't know of any one who has ever said, "I was _SO_ shocked when Littlefinger betrayed Ned!" I certainly don't think viewers will be left with any illusion that Littlefinger is trustworthy, either, but they'll accept that as things come to a head, it's logical that he's the only person Ned can turn to.

To be honest, I was shocked. Not because I believed in LF's trustworthiness but because it's fantasy and in fantasy the main character doesn't usually die in the first book of a series from his "honorable" mistakes. That being said, I am much more understanding of Ned's decision to trust LF than I am of some of his other decisions. Trusting Renly would have been a better choice, but, well... :tantrum:

[Ran]

It sounds to me like you expected Littlefinger to betray him, but that you also expected that Ned would get out of it somehow. :)

And I agree. I think Ned's grudging trust was realistically developed. Catelyn's, too.

[Alexia]

It sounds to me like you expected Littlefinger to betray him, but that you also expected that Ned would get out of it somehow. :)

My reactions went something like this:

You turned down Renly! What! Why would you do that? What's wrong with you! :tantrum:

Darn, now LF is going to help him. This is ridiculous; I don't know if I want to finish this book. Talk about cliche... :stillsick:

LF betrayed him! :wideeyed: Woah...now things are getting realistic!

So he's off to the Wall, eh? He and Jon are going to meet up to fight the Lannisters and the Others together. Hmmm....

Wait...what! :wacko: He's not dead...is he? :uhoh: Nah, he's the main character; he can't be dead! Uh, I think he's really dead... :eek:

And then I was hooked... :)