Arthur Dayne is alive theory

[History of Westeros]

I'm certainly not the first to suggest the possibility that Arthur Dayne is alive, but I'm probably the first to suggest a reason from outside the series.

Here it is: Arthur Dayne is clearly inspired by Camaris from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams. (we also know Martin said this series was one of the three most important inspirations: Vance and Tolkien being the others).

A review of why they are so similar. Camaris was the finest knight in the realm, with no peer in arms or honor. Dayne was the same. Ok, that's not much. However, they both wielded a sword forged from a meteorite. That's very straightforward and obvious. Camaris was supposed to be dead, but he showed back up. The other parallels being what they are, why not this one? (because it would be kinda lame? yeah, I agree.)

So yes, my "theory" is based on nothing particularly substantial. I don't consider it very strong. If I had to wager, I'd guess Dayne is quite dead. I do enjoy discussing possibilities when it comes to aSoIaF however. Especially given what we know about how Martin writes.. He calls himself a gardener, while many authors are architects. He doesn't know what's going to happen. At this point, he *could* write Arthur Dayne into the story and yes, it might be lame, but it is absolutely possible.

Ned's memory is that "Dayne would've killed me too if not for Howland Reed." (not an exact quote).

Now that could easily just be "Dayne was about to deliver the killing blow but then Howland got him from behind." I think this is most likely, but the wording leaves so much room for other possibilities. We are given clues that Howland is a weakling (the squires picking on him during the KotLT episode).. but this is the guy that was crucial to killing the best fighter on the continent? Poison maybe, but I have my doubts that a member of Ned's party would kill a KG with poison. That would be seen as very dishonorable. (Yes, I know the crannogmen use poison on the ironmen, but the circumstances are very different. Plus the description of their poison sounds like a slower acting one).

possible scenarios:

1) HR is able to disarm Dayne, thus allowing a moment for him to speak and sway him, somehow. No idea what he might've said, but it would be something along the lines of "Hey, this is Ned's nephew.. we're not here to kill him." However, Dayne isn't just going to leave and say ok, adios.. Take the kid and I'll go off to Essos. But they could force him to accept exile. (or an even crazier theory.. Lyanna had twins! Arthur took one baby and Ned the other. No, not really. That's too crazy.)

2) HR gets past the KG during the fight, goes upstairs and either yells out a window or brings the child outside, saying: "I have the king/child. Put down your sword or the son of Rhaegar dies." Even Arthur would stop fighting under this circumstance. Then, like the first example Arthur is forced into exile.

After exile, Arthur could learn of/be told of Young Griff, who many of us suspect might be Aegon. Or he could've died of old age by now. Or he takes his own life on the spot making the cairn count straightforward (there are other reasons for one of the cairns to be someone else, or a fake).

I repeat, I don't actually believe this theory. I'm hoping that something new and interesting comes up from discussing the possibility and running through all the potentials.

[K@li]

well, even if he survived, i can't see him going into exile. he's like The most honorable,finest KG ever, and KG serves for life, no chance he'd abandon his service. if he lived, if Ned and Reed told him here's the heir, stop fighting us,wouldn't he be bound to protect the baby, or go to protect Viserys and Danny or something like that?

[Lady Winter Rose]

well, even if he survived, i can't see him going into exile. he's like The most honorable,finest KG ever, and KG serves for life, no chance he'd abandon his service. if he lived, if Ned and Reed told him here's the heir, stop fighting us,wouldn't he be bound to protect the baby, or go to protect Viserys and Danny or something like that?

Don't forget 10 graves. Seven for Ned's companions and 3 for Knights of KG.

[Rockroi]

Don't forget 10 graves. Seven for Ned's companions and 3 for Knights of KG.

Its actually 8 graves- Ned and Howland survived so they only had 5 dead, the KG 3 more. If you add in Lyanna (which Ned does not do in the books) than you get 9. However your point holds: Ned remembers burying Dayne, and then there is the little matter of returning Dawn to Starfall, etc.

This theory is completely untenable. There is not so much as a HINT that Dayne is still alive; actually quite the opposite. Ned seems to remember Dayne and the others as ending up very dead. In fact, IIRC, when Ned remembers the fight at the ToJ he says something to the effect of "their faces burned just as brightly in death as they had in life..." etc. There is nothing that suggests Dayne would have forsaken his vow to such an extent; no reason why he would not have (like Selmy) eventually sought out Viserys/Dany.

I don't mind a good theory; but it must be tethered to some evidence WITHIN THE BOOK and not the absence of some information (ie: the scene when Ned slays Dayne). There must be some relevant information that is contained within the nearly 3000 pages of text that we can look to before we start making dramatic pronouncements.

But, again, this is the unhappy by-product of a long wait: the longer ADwD takes to be completed, the more idle minds will wander to grand theories, without so much as a sentence of evidence.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Its actually 8 graves- Ned and Howland survived so they only had 5 dead, the KG 3 more. If you add in Lyanna (which Ned does not do in the books) than you get 9. However your point holds: Ned remembers burying Dayne, and then there is the little matter of returning Dawn to Starfall, etc.

8?!You confuse me.

How many companions Ned have?

[History of Westeros]

Its actually 8 graves- Ned and Howland survived so they only had 5 dead, the KG 3 more. If you add in Lyanna (which Ned does not do in the books) than you get 9. However your point holds: Ned remembers burying Dayne, and then there is the little matter of returning Dawn to Starfall, etc.

This theory is completely untenable. There is not so much as a HINT that Dayne is still alive; actually quite the opposite. Ned seems to remember Dayne and the others as ending up very dead. In fact, IIRC, when Ned remembers the fight at the ToJ he says something to the effect of "their faces burned just as brightly in death as they had in life..." etc. There is nothing that suggests Dayne would have forsaken his vow to such an extent; no reason why he would not have (like Selmy) eventually sought out Viserys/Dany.

I don't mind a good theory; but it must be tethered to some evidence WITHIN THE BOOK and not the absence of some information (ie: the scene when Ned slays Dayne). There must be some relevant information that is contained within the nearly 3000 pages of text that we can look to before we start making dramatic pronouncements.

But, again, this is the unhappy by-product of a long wait: the longer ADwD takes to be completed, the more idle minds will wander to grand theories, without so much as a sentence of evidence.

It can't really be a dramatic pronouncement when the thread's author points out twice that doesn't even believe his own theory.

Anyway, in rebuttal: there's no proof Dayne is dead. Period. There is tons of evidence: Dawn being returned to Starfall, the number of cairns, the possibly forsaken vow, not seeking out Viserys.

I've already addressed the # of cairns.

Dawn being returned to Starfall would be part of the plot to hide his death. Thin, I know. Not impossible. If Dayne accepts exile (to go seek D/V, but fails to get to them, or goes to find Aegon/Young Griff) he would give the sword back to his family.

Forsaken vow. Not forsaken if a stronger vow was made to Rhaegar to do whatever he can to make sure the PWWP prophecy is fulfilled. That the 3 KG at the ToJ took a vow wrt the PWWP, it could supersede their KG oaths. This has been discussed quite a bit in the R+L = J threads. Also very thin/weak. But still not impossible.

Not seeking out Dany/Viserys is easy. He dies along the way, or finds "Young Griff" instead.

"their faces burned brightly" means nothing. Surely that is as weak as most/all of my evidence. :) No specific "faces" are mentioned.

I will now go re-read some Ned chapters. I don't think he ever specifically mentions killing Arthur, as you claim. Obviously if he does, then this theory goes from 1% possible to 0%.

[History of Westeros]

well, even if he survived, i can't see him going into exile. he's like The most honorable,finest KG ever, and KG serves for life, no chance he'd abandon his service. if he lived, if Ned and Reed told him here's the heir, stop fighting us,wouldn't he be bound to protect the baby, or go to protect Viserys and Danny or something like that?

How exactly does one protect the baby when an enemy is holding it? It's an impossible situation for Arthur.

He would likely go seek V/D, but could he not go seek Connington first (as he might know where they are), and thus discover that Young Griff is Aegon? This would trump the need to find Viserys, as Aegon is ahead of him in succession.

[History of Westeros]

Ok, this line seals it.. No way Arthur is alive.

Ned thinks to himself: "They had been seven against three, but only two lived to ride away." (Reed and himself, he thinks).

fyi, the "brightly burning burning faces" line is before the 7 vs. 3 battle begins, it has nothing to do with who died. It's meant to show how Ned's memory of the event is clear. He distinctly remembers the faces of Dayne, Hightower and Whent.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Ok, this line seals it.. No way Arthur is alive.

Ned thinks to himself: "They had been seven against three, but only two lived to ride away." (Reed and himself, he thinks).

Actually that line just means that only 2 of the 7 lived. It says nothing about the 3.

[Beric_D]

As unfortunate as it is, I do not think Arthur Dayne is alive. However, who is this young griff fellow? Is this part of another thin theory that has sprung up due to the wait?

[Rockroi]

I am glad we had this discussion.

Stan: Really?

Butters: No, not really.

One last thing:

8?!You confuse me.

How many companions Ned have?

Ned rode to the ToJ with 6 companions (he was #7). They were Ned, Howland Reed, Lord Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Casssel, Ser Mark Ryswell, and Theo Wull. They faced Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent. In the book, Ned states that he pulled the Tower down to build "eight cairns" and that "They had been seven against three yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed."

[Yakman]

Ridiculous. His death is actually one of the key points of Jaime's character development, a critical part of Eddard's past, and is not only supported by Ned's recollections, but by EVERYTHING DEALING WITH THE CHARACTER EVER WRITTEN.

Dayne is dead.

GRRM doesn't do 'fake deaths' if you hadn't noticed. These "Tywin is alive," "Aegon is alive," "Aemon is alive," "Robert is alive," threads are completely against the spirit and tone of the books and not supported by anything that's been written so far.

[oxmix]

I wish there wasn't going to be a TV show about SOIAF, but if there was one scene I would like to see reenacted, it would be the battle at the Tower of Joy.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Ridiculous. His death is actually one of the key points of Jaime's character development, a critical part of Eddard's past, and is not only supported by Ned's recollections, but by EVERYTHING DEALING WITH THE CHARACTER EVER WRITTEN.

Dayne is dead.

GRRM doesn't do 'fake deaths' if you hadn't noticed. These "Tywin is alive," "Aegon is alive," "Aemon is alive," "Robert is alive," threads are completely against the spirit and tone of the books and not supported by anything that's been written so far.

There is no fake death as there just isn´t anything about the issue. The books do not actually tell us anything about what happened to the 3 KG members.

Is it likely Dayne is dead? Yes.

Do we know it for a fact? No.

[Yakman]

There is no fake death as there just isn´t anything about the issue. The books do not actually tell us anything about what happened to the 3 KG members.

Is it likely Dayne is dead? Yes.

Do we know it for a fact? No.

Eddard saw all three of them dead in his dream. He states that 7 showed up to fight 3 and only two lived to ride away. The man is dead.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Eddard saw all three of them dead in his dream. He states that 7 showed up to fight 3 and only two lived to ride away. The man is dead.

As I said before the wording is so that 2 of the 7 rode away and says nothing about the 3. Eddard doesn´t see them dead. The flashback ends when the fighting begins. We do not know what happened at the Tower of Joy.

And then about GRRM not doing fake deaths:

Bran and Rickon are dead. Theon took their heads as we all surely know. Oh wait!

Ramsay Bolton is dead. His servant surrendered. What?

You better hope Sandor Glegane never shows up again as we all know the hound is dead as well.

Those all are against the spirit and tone of the books?

[History of Westeros]

GRRM doesn't do 'fake deaths' if you hadn't noticed.

I've noticed several.

[CFdS]

Doesn't grrm resolve the fake deaths (like Bran and Rikkon) in the same book or at least give some "evidence" (like limping gravediggers that like dogs)?

There is no shred of evidence that Dayne is alive but to the Believer the mentioning of eight cairns is a clear proof that he is...

On the other hand: would a living Sword of the Morning (without his sword) have any impact on the story? (To be clear: any impact that could not be delivered by any other person)

[ButIwantedtobeHodor]

Un-Cat

Un-Beric

Arya, something about an axe blow to the head

Bran and Rickon

Sandor (maybe)

eventual un-GREGOR

even Davos got very close

So Gandalf should have stayed dead... right. Anyone asked him about that yet?

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Doesn't grrm resolve the fake deaths (like Bran and Rikkon) in the same book or at least give some "evidence" (like limping gravediggers that like dogs)?

There is no shred of evidence that Dayne is alive but to the Believer the mentioning of eight cairns is a clear proof that he is...

On the other hand: would a living Sword of the Morning (without his sword) have any impact on the story? (To be clear: any impact that could not be delivered by any other person)

That depends entirely on facts we don´t know.

Why were the KG members at ToJ?

Why did Ned only have 6 friends with him?

But yes, there are certain circumstances in which Dayne being alive has huge impact.

There is no proof he is alive, however there also isn´t any clear proof without doubt he isn´t. The same facts we know could be made to point to either death or hiding depending on situation.

We don´t know what happened there.