Arthur Dayne is alive theory

[feardeathbywater]

Could it actually be important to the plot that he is dead? That now one of our heroes has got to go down there and collect the thing to smash the Others, which would be impossible if it were still carried by a guy in a white cloak...instead of a black one, perhaps? Could not "Bring back the dawn..." as the Red Priests say it not be a corruption of "Bring back Dawn"? Azor Ahai stabbing his wife in the heart with a red hot sword a metaphor for a meteor from the heavens/God/whatever striking the earth?

Just a thought.

[Ninepenny King]

Arthur dayne is the elder brother--at the monenestary...

[Ahmrogar]

As I said before the wording is so that 2 of the 7 rode away and says nothing about the 3.

I took it to mean of all ten, only two rode away.

Eddard doesn´t see them dead. The flashback ends when the fighting begins. We do not know what happened at the Tower of Joy.

Eight cairns, we also know "the Kingsguard do not flee"

If Dayne is alive, why not Hightower as well? Why not Whent?

Look, I can appreciate the theory you're trying to put forth, but it is baseless. You need some evidence in favour of a theory, not a lack of complete evidence against it.

And then about GRRM not doing fake deaths:

Bran and Rickon are dead. Theon took their heads as we all surely know. Oh wait!

Ramsay Bolton is dead. His servant surrendered. What?

You better hope Sandor Glegane never shows up again as we all know the hound is dead as well.

None of those are the same. With the Stark boys, before we even hear they are dead we know something is up with Reek having a bag of their clothes.

With Ramsay it is hinted he looks a lot more like a Bolton than he should (colourless eyes?)

With Sandor...yeah. We get a whole lot of hints in favour of him.

Those all are against the spirit and tone of the books?

No, but they also happen in the course of the books and not the past, plus they have (from the get-go) evidence in favour of them being alive.

We have nothing with Dayne.

[Dolorous J]

This is a fiction , folks , so for Authur Dayne to still be alive it would have to serve some plot purpose . What purpose could it serve. He'd be too old now to be much use in battle....

[Mandurang]

The only thing I can say - inspiration does not mean replication. For instance, Tolkien could well be GRRM's inspiration, but aSoIaF is nothing like LotR. And by nothing, I mean nothing. Realistically, the only reason elements of the character might be somewhat similar is because Martin likes to pay some sort of homage to works that have inspired him or that he simply enjoys.

[KyleLitke]

I totally don't think he's alive, but I'm rereading the first book, and one line jumped out at me, could just be an inconsistency or a mistake, but when Ned first thinks of Lyanna, the quote is "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief". Who's "they"? I thought only Ned and Reed survived. Reed is mentioned in the next line, but who was with Howland? I guess some of Ned's men could have been, say, a half hour away when the battle at the Tower took place, but I always assumed Ned took a small group and left them behind, not ran a couple miles ahead. So I wonder if someone else was with Reed after all. I don't think it was Dayne or anything, who I'm sure is dead, but this thread made me wonder about what was going on there.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I totally don't think he's alive, but I'm rereading the first book, and one line jumped out at me, could just be an inconsistency or a mistake, but when Ned first thinks of Lyanna, the quote is "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief". Who's "they"?

Possibilities that have been discussed in the past have included the wetnurse Wylla (makes sense to have a wetnurse ready when a noblewoman gives birth) or some maester (ditto). Both of them would have had to be sworn to secrecy if the sort of chicanery that is commonly believed took place.

[ishmael]

This is a theory that I can't decide which way I feel about it. But here are a few thoughts that relate to the TOJ and the fight.

1) Concerning their vows. IIRC when Ned arrives at the TOJ, he inquires as to why they are not with D/V as V is the new king since the king, the prince, and the prince's children are all dead. They respond that they are exactly where they should be. This indicates that being at the TOJ is in line with their vows. They don't seem to be surprised by the information that everyone important is dead, but they also don't seem to care. What they care about is where they are and what they are doing.

2) Why did the fight at the TOJ occur? Of all the people who could have rode up to the tower, Ned is the absolute least threat to a child of R and L. Ned did not come to injure the child. He came to get/see his sister.

3) The final battle comes down to Ned vs. Arthur. Both are honorable men. Both are all about duty and honor. This point really relates to #2, why would the battle continue at this point? Ned and Arthur are not strangers who are meeting for the first time. Ned and Arthur's sister are in love. I'm sure Arthur is very aware of what kind of man Ned is, and that the child is in no danger from Ned. So, why continue. Hightower and Whent are all about duty. To them, it is great if your duty is honorable, but if isn't, then you do your duty first. Arthur is not presented in this way. Arthur is more of a do the right thing kinda guy, much like Ned. We also know that Dayne has more insight to the R than anyone else, and maybe this is why they had to fight. Maybe it had to do with a promise AD made to R.

I just don't get the impression that AD was an unreasonable man. He opted to fight a man that was no threat to the child and died as oppossed to both of them living and working together to ensure the child's safety when each of them knew the child's safety was the most important thing to the other. AD because of duty. Ned because of blood relation through L (if R+L=child).

4) Ned's decision to take Dawn back to Starfal is rather curious. You are going to ride to the front gate of a major house with the sword of their eldest son who you killed in a war where you are designated the traitor, and you are going to be welcomed in as if you are some kind of hero? That doesn't make sense to me. He obviously was held in high esteem by the Daynes, by the way Eddrick (? right name) talks of him to Ayra. Then he goes to talk with their daughter and she commits suicide. Starfall does not seem like the best or safest destination for Ned. Wouldn't it be safer for him to send an emissary to return the sword or communicate to the Danyes that he would ensure safe passage to WF for them to retrieve the sword and explain the circumstances Arthur's death.

The only explination that I can see for him immediately returning Dawn is so that the graves at the TOJ won't be disturbed. When it become known the AD is buried at the TOJ, treasure hunters are going to want to find Dawn. Him immediately returning the sword prevents this from happening. There are two possibilities for why he does not want the graves disturbed: 1)He respects the dead and does not want them desecrated or 2)He doesn't want it discovered that the number of graves and the number of bodies don't match. Either could be a possibility.

5) I remember a while back, a very long time ago, reading in the SSM section that he was quoted as saying that Ned's dreams and memories while he was under the influence of pain and medication in the dark cells are not exactly accurate and not to place too much faith in them. This could completely turn all the theories related to the TOJ upside down.

Again, I don't know whether AD is alive or dead, but it is fun to discuss and hear other people's ideas on the possibilities from their interpretation from what they have read.

[Ninepenny King]

This is a fiction , folks , so for Authur Dayne to still be alive it would have to serve some plot purpose . What purpose could it serve. He'd be too old now to be much use in battle....

He would NOT be too old.

we can asume arthur dayne to be anywhere in age from 35-50 given that ned is 34 or 35 when the book starts and that Jaime lannister squired for DAyne around 15. GIVEN that Ashara who is arthurs sister was presumable younger or the same age as ned at the time of the rebelion say ned was 20---and jaime squired for a arthur we can literaly assume ARthur dyne is no more than 3 or four years older than ned....anc cannot posibly be older than 45 given ashara.

[Ninepenny King]

He would NOT be too old.

we can asume arthur dayne to be anywhere in age from 35-50 given that ned is 34 or 35 when the book starts and that Jaime lannister squired for DAyne around 15. GIVEN that Ashara who is arthurs sister was presumable younger or the same age as ned at the time of the rebelion say ned was 20---and jaime squired for a arthur we can literaly assume ARthur dyne is no more than 3 or four years older than ned....anc cannot posibly be older than 45 given ashara.

all im saying is that arthur was probaly 20-25 when jaime squired for him. add 15-20 years and he is 45 tops

[Carldog]

Someone should start a "Manden Moore is alive" theory. When people start coming up with stuff like this it tells me that we are all hungry for new material. I'm not trying to bash, but this theory holds no water. Dayne, from everything we as readers have been told, is dead. Even if he is alive wouldn't he be to old to do anything?

[Black Walder]

A review of why they are so similar. Camaris was the finest knight in the realm, with no peer in arms or honor. Dayne was the same. Ok, that's not much. However, they both wielded a sword forged from a meteorite. That's very straightforward and obvious.

It's worth noting that swords forged from a meteorite go back at least as far as the 6th century or so in legend.

[KyleLitke]

Someone should start a "Manden Moore is alive" theory. When people start coming up with stuff like this it tells me that we are all hungry for new material. I'm not trying to bash, but this theory holds no water. Dayne, from everything we as readers have been told, is dead. Even if he is alive wouldn't he be to old to do anything?

I thought it was common knowledge Moore is alive. I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that Syrio helped him swim away, where he hopped on a ship to the Free Cities, where Arthur Dayne was guarding Aegon (Egg, not Rhaegar's son) and also Gerold Hightower was there guarding Aegon (Rhaegar's son, not Egg).

I mean, how could you NOT get that from the books?

[Ninepenny King]

just because they dug the graves doesnt mean anyone was in them.

but looking at arthur daynes honor-- he would have to be imprisoned.. if he was exiled he woulda been with dany

[John (Snow) Doe]

Dayne is dead. There are already so many plots and subplots going on in this series that there is no room for superfluous characters. Dayne living would serve no purpose because Howland Reed is still alive.

From a writer's perspective, GRRM has more than enough pots on the burner to deal with in the 3 books left. In fact, to maintain a sense of realism, he might even leave a lot unresolved (eg - we may never know what happened to Benjen Stark because nobody can find out). At this point, less is more.

[Axon]

Though we did not see his death directly, much like we did not see Rhaegar's, it is clear that Dayne is gone. We'll get confirmation when Howland Reed finally shows his face.

[MountainThatRides]

Un-Cat

Un-Beric

Arya, something about an axe blow to the head

Bran and Rickon

Sandor (maybe)

eventual un-GREGOR

even Davos got very close

So Gandalf should have stayed dead... right. Anyone asked him about that yet?

Those are hard to compare. The "fake-deaths" (which include Arya, Bran & Rickon and possibly Sandor) are left ambiguous and later acknowledged to have been false. We do not see them die in someone's point of view, or via flashback. The source for Dayne's death is a primary one, Eddard having been there, having most likely been his killer along with Howland Reed.

Beric, Catelyn and the possibility of Gregor are not "fake deaths"; they actually died, and were reanimated through some supernatural force. Beric lost more of his humanity and his memories each time he was brought back, and eventually he stayed dead. Catelyn is a shadow of her former self. These are hardly exceptions to the rule -- of course, as we knew early on from Othor, Jafer Flowers and co., reanimation is possible. But coming back from the dead and not dying at all are two completely different things.

Arthur Dayne is dead. We know that empirically. The same goes for Robb Stark, Joffrey, Renly, King Robert, Maester Aemon, Jon Arryn, and about 50 others, plus a whole slew of people presumed or reported dead (whose death we did not see firsthand).

Gandalf fell into a chasm; no mortal character would survive that, and no human character from ASoIaF would either. When Martin says "Gandalf should have stayed dead", what he means is that it was slightly shoddy to bring him back -- not only alive, but more powerful than before -- when his "death" was the dramatic crux of The Fellowship of the Ring. Tolkien, of course, operated in his own universe under his own rules. I see no reason that this statement from George should appear hypocritical. Every death, or at least those whose deaths we know for a fact to be certain, stay dead. Even if they come back, reanimated either by the Others or by R'hllor, they're still technically dead. Just, you know... Undead.

[Lyndsica]

Ok, so I skimmed all the answers on this thread - someone tell me if I missed someone mentioning it, but I think the character of Ser Dayne has a far more obvious inspiration: King Arthur. Excalibur, in many versions of his story, is said to be forged from a meteorite.

Also, in the legends, Lancelot takes Guinevere to a castle named Joyous Gard. Interesting, no? I'm positive this has been brought up before on these boards, as I can't be the only Arthurian Legend fanatic here.

For what it's worth, I think it likely that Camaris was inspired by Arthur or Lancelot.

[MountainThatRides]

In certain versions of the story, Joyous Gard was Lancelot's castle where he lived with his wife Elaine, prior to joining the Round Table. There's certainly some Arthurian influence, as there is in all Western fantasy, but I don't think there's any clear parallels (or hints) that George tried to cleverly disguise.

Excalibur's origins are manifold and change depending on which source you're looking at. Linguistically and culturally it derives from Caladbolg, the sword of the Irish hero Fergus mac Roich. From the origins in Celtic mythology it entered Welsh tradition, being mentioned in the Mabinogion as Caledvwlch/Caledfwlch ("cut steel"). The name in Latin is Caliburnus, which then became Excalibur. In some stories it was forged on Avalon by the Fisher King (or the Lady of the Lake, by extension); in others it was given to Arthur by the Lady of the Lake from a still pool. In some of the stories it replaces the "Sword of Britain", i.e. the imperial sword of Magnus Maximus which was drawn from the stone (which was later destroyed in those accounts where it's mentioned, leading Arthur to seek out a new blade, i.e. Excalibur). In no version of Arthurian myth, however, was Excalibur ever said to be forged of a meteorite. That's an invention of modern fantasy.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThunderboltIron This is a helpful page, and it even mentions Dawn.

[Yarl Snow]

Ok, so I skimmed all the answers on this thread - someone tell me if I missed someone mentioning it, but I think the character of Ser Dayne has a far more obvious inspiration: King Arthur. Excalibur, in many versions of his story, is said to be forged from a meteorite.

Also, in the legends, Lancelot takes Guinevere to a castle named Joyous Gard. Interesting, no? I'm positive this has been brought up before on these boards, as I can't be the only Arthurian Legend fanatic here.

For what it's worth, I think it likely that Camaris was inspired by Arthur or Lancelot.

Joyous Gard, Tower of Joy? Lancelot and Guinevere... weren't they lovers, or some such? Lancelot fell in love with Arthur's wife? Ser Dayne & Lyanna? ;)