156 replies to this topic

[angelodebo]

I wrote this topic a while back in the "What do think the Winds of Winter will be about" thread, but it never posted. (probably because I placed the topic in an inappropriate thread)

In a Davos chapter, while he was locked up in a cell at White Harbor, Davos is told an old story about the Wolfs Den. Bartimus, who was head man in charge of the Den, gave Davos a little history lesson about the Den.

"When old King Edrick Stark has grown too feeble to defend the realm, the Wolf's Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones.......Then a long cruel winter fell. The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was,Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven know don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

When reading this, I thought Ice Eyes is the same descriptions they use for the eyes of the "Others". The story is also tying the old gods, winter and the Starks together. We also know that the "Others" are also tied to winter too.

"Winter is Coming"..the words of House Stark. I think those words are stating that , when winter comes - the Starks rule. How and why they rule the winter is still an unknown. Do the old gods/"Others" aid the Starks? Or do the Starks (like a werewolf) turn into "other" beings?

Obviously I have no idea how it all ties together, but I do feel that four key components to the story related to one another: The Starks, The Winter, The Others, and the Old Gods









***side note: The story of the slavers and hanging their entrails parallels what Dany has done in Mereen

Edited by angelodebo, 02 July 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Black Crow]

Do indeed - check out the Wall the Watch and a heresy thread.

[Black Crow]

Heresy has just been locked, which I suppose at 24 pages and approaching 500 replies was pretty inevitable, but to continue...

The passage quoted above comes from ADwD Davos 4. Although Angel has highlighted the reference to a cruel winter, it doesn't appear from the context (or the description) that it was the Long Winter, however the reference to that Brandon Stark being known as Ice Eyes has to be significant in the light of what we've been discussing about a connection between the Starks and the White Walkers.

[FanTasy]

Interesting, those ice eyes. Nice thread, Angelodebo!
It made me think about another character with eyes decribed as icy, Roose Bolton. Made me wonder if there were any Stark-Bolton marriages in the past, with offspring that sustained the Stark bloodline as well as the Boltons.
That there has been some intermarriage between two powerful families in the North can be expected, I guess.

Edited by FanTasy, 17 December 2011 - 05:11 PM.

[Francis Buck]

I made a long thread about this theory (albeit slightly more complex) a while ago...unfortunately it devolved into a "Is Dany evil thread?".

http://asoiaf.wester...eros-from-dany/

But the short answer is yes, I definitely think there's a significant connection between the Starks and the Others, and it's all tied up with winter coming (which will likely coincide perfectly with the Stark's revenge).

Edited by Francis Buck, 17 December 2011 - 05:37 PM.

[Black Crow]

Misplaced post

Edited by Black Crow, 17 December 2011 - 06:04 PM.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

angelodebo, on 16 December 2011 - 12:31 PM, said:

It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods.

I'm wondering if this could be how the Bolton tradition of flaying got started? Perhaps they used to hang skins from heart trees as an offering to the Old Gods? Granted, the tradition itself may have been started for purely sadistic reasons, but traditions like that are generally created out of necessity, even if the true purpose gets forgotten over time.

In any case, it sounds like human sacrifice used to play a rather significant role in Northern culture, way back when.

My theory? The Boltons aren't the only Northern family with gruesome traditions. They're simply the only ones to have retained them into the present day. Perhaps the story of old "Ice Eyes" hanging entrails from trees wasn't an isolated incident, but rather a Stark tradition? Flaying is to Bolton as disemboweling is to Stark... Could be.

But there's got to be something to flaying. A tradition as gnarly as that doesn't just spring up out of nowhere. The Boltons can't be alone.

[slayer420]

could it have something to do with a glamor?  Wearing a stark skin to apear to be a stark for some reason?

[David C. Hunter]

I think the Ice Eyes connection is significant, but its not the most significant part of the story. History repeats itself, and in that story slavers conquered northern kingdoms based on the vulnerability of northen leadership, Edrick Stark.

Much in the same way that the Ironborn have done to the north and betrayers such as the Boltons(who are about to witness it at Winterfell) and the Freys. The North and the Starks are coming back with a vegeance.

What happened to the slavers when they were defeated by the Winter? They were given to their slaves and their intestines were hung on the heart trees. All of this talk about blood sacrifices of the north, the Frey Pies, the re-emergence of the White Walkers and COTF,  and the flashbacks that Bran sees of human sacrifices, it's setting up a ending in which all of these pretenders will not only be defeated, but they will be destoyed by Winter itself as well as it's Kings.

IDK if the Starks and their bannermen(Northern lords, Others, COTF, etc) will be come 'evil' but they will remake the 7 kingdoms in Ice and snow and the only ones who will really oppose them are the Dragons.

It doesnt matter if the southern kingdoms outnumber the northern kingdoms. No one has every conquered the north and the fact that the Boltons, Freys and Ironborn have taken control of the north via schemes and feasting on the vulnerable is the reason why Winter is coming with a vegeance.

If the north ever goes south again, united under one banner they are also bringing all of winter with them and they southern lords can hide in their castles but the northen armies and the winter will starve them out and freeze them out and they will be slaughtered. Potentially the White Walkers will even be aligned with the North. If that's the case then pray Dany gets there in time because she has already envisioned fighting the Others at the Trident and Im sure the Northen kingdom and Starks will be among them.

If she sees herself fighting the Others at the trident that means either the Others have already defeated and fought through the northen armies and are on there way south or that the northen armies and white walkers join forces. There is no other way that could happen.

The Old Gods are the Gods of westeros. They are the Gods of the COTF and the First Men.
R'hillor comes from Valyria and the Seven came with the Andals from Essos. Westeros is not their country.

This Winter will be a long one and you can already see that the Freys and Boltons days are numbered by the way the 5th book ended. The Ironborn werent really a threat to begin with(unless Victarion brings a dragon) and they will be defeated shortly. Maybe even Asha and Theon can somehow gain control from Euron.

The North shouldnt fear the Ironborn, Boltons or Freys because their demise is coming via Winter.
Even Roose Bolton was scared towards the end.

They way the 5th book went to me....The southern kingdoms are their leaders are political savy leaders that defeated the north via schemes(The Red Wedding; Littlefinger betraying Ned; Arya Stark/Jeyne Poole switch;) because basically the Northen leaders were never and will never be politically savy people. They are generals and soldiers. Remember, Ned Stark basically one the Rebellion for Robert Baratheon. How did the Southern Lannisters gain power? They pretended to be allies of the Mad King then when they were let inside they slaughtered everyone. Schemers. Thats why I never gave Tywin Lannister credit as a great commander. He's more of a coward to me. Also remember, Rob Stark never lost a battle.

The North won every battle and lost the war and the only northen territory that was as savy as the southern kingdoms is roose bolton and the boltons. Roose Bolton has ambitions and is smart enough to fufill them even if it means using southern tactics to gain them. Can't be mad at that, but it brings me to the 5th book.

IDK when Lord Manderly started this scheme, but this scheme is amazing because he's playing the Game of Thrones and schemes of the south, but the reprocussions of his scheme will be waaay more brutal than what the South did to the North. Frey pies? Seriously? The story of what the north did to the step stone slavers? Human sacrifices to heart tress? The North remembers? Winter is Coming? Winter is coming indeed to the South and all those who opposed the North.

The North has been humiliated and defeated via bertayels and schemes. If thats the way wars are one nowadays then lets show the South the North's true face. And thats exactly what manderly and partners are about to do.

'You Southern Lords and your weary alliances have schemed your way into destroying our Kingdom and our King. You forsaked your honor and killed our young wolf beneath your roof. You killed our liege lord and branded him a traitor and held his mangled head high enough for the world to see. You burned Winterfell to the ground and burned the riverlands to ash and sinew. Your days are numbered. However, as you laugh at our temporary defeat and decorate spikes with the heads of our leaders, remember this. The North remembers.... and Winter is Coming. When we cross the Neck with the North united and the winds behind us, remember this. The North remembers....and Winter is coming. As the foreign snow falls and you run inside your castles and homes leaving your plants and livestock to freeze in the cold, remember this. The North remembers....and Winter is Coming. When there is no more food and no wood for fire. When frostbite and disease takes over your kingdoms. When your children die in you arms and your tears freeze on your cheeks. When you beg for death and beg for mercy, and beg to bend the knee as we break down your doors, remember this. The North remembers....and Winter has come. Now run off to your Southern kingdoms and repeat what I said. Tell the Dragon that it doesn't matter how many foreign dishonored followers join him, he cannot stop the cold winds from rising.'

Edited by David C Simmons, 17 December 2011 - 07:18 PM.

[tze]

BrosBeforeSnows, on 17 December 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

But there's got to be something to flaying. A tradition as gnarly as that doesn't just spring up out of nowhere. The Boltons can't be alone.

I always thought the Boltons' habit of wearing other people's skins was them trying, and failing, to emulate the Starks. Not that the Starks flayed their enemies, but that the ancient Starks were probably skinchangers, and could "wear the skins" of men and beasts. The Boltons were approximating the Starks' abilities in the same way that the maesters now approximate the ancient First Men's usage of the ravens as messengers; they can imitate it, but they can't really accomplish the same thing as the people they're copying.

Quote

What happened to the slavers when they were defeated by the Winter? They were given to their slaves and their intestines were hung on the heart trees. All of this talk about blood sacrifices of the north, the Frey Pies, the re-emergence of the White Walkers and COTF, and the flashbacks that Bran sees of human sacrifices, it's setting up a ending in which all of these pretenders will not only be defeated, but they will be destoyed by Winter itself as well as it's Kings.

It's interesting that the Andals' approach to Westeros was apparently to kill off as many of the original inhabitants as they could and simply replace them---culturally, linguistically, and religiously. This contrasts starkly with how the First Men adopted the ways of the Children (and possibly even the Others as well). The Targaryens then came in and basically threw off Valyrian culture in favor of Andal culture (with the noted exceptions of polygamy and incest, but they didn't allow the population at large to do these things, only themselves), while apparently ignoring the remaining cultures of the First Men (Aegon the Conqueror adopted the Seven but chose not to adopt the Old Gods (or even the Drowned God),etc.)

A major theme so far has been the dangers of ethnocentrism, so I can absolutely see the Andal cultures and the Targaryens, who failed to understand or acclimate to the native Westerosi (the Children, giants, and possibly the Others) having that failure come back to bite them, while people like the Starks end up succeeding and thriving because they are more intimately tied into the extremely powerful forces native to Westeros.

The story of Brandon Ice-Eyes is basically a story of how the Starks and the Northmen are the only force really capable of surviving and thriving in winter (from the maps we've been given, there doesn't appear to be any other landmass parallel to the North (the bottom of the Westerosi North is about parallel to the top of Essos)), so the Northmen's culture is necessarily unique. And the point is that winter will kill everyone else, but it won't kill the Starks; if the Others come during winter, then a connection between the Starks and the Others makes sense, in that the Others will kill everybody except the Starks/Northmen.

Edited by tze, 17 December 2011 - 07:56 PM.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

slayer420, on 17 December 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

could it have something to do with a glamor?  Wearing a stark skin to apear to be a stark for some reason?

That's a definite possibility. I believe Melisandre mentions that personal items, and body parts, like bones (and presumably skin as well) make for stronger glamors.

It could also be related to the Faceless Men in some way, because it sounds like they basically flay the faces off of corpses and wear them like masks (with the aid of magic, of course).

There's actually a scene with the FM, in which the Kindly Old Man is explaining their disguises to Arya, and he claims that glamors are not as reliable as their method because some people have the ability to see through them. I wonder who those people are?  

Granted, the whole thing with Abel being Mance Rayder went way over my head when I first read it, but my initial reaction to Ramsay's letter was that he had somehow seen through Mance's glamor (that theory is obviously incorrect, given the fact that "Abel" must've taken the Rattleshirt glamor off before he entered Winterfell). But even so, I still wonder if there's some kind of a connection between "pale eyes" and the ability to see through glamors? I'm probably going out on a limb here, but just something I wanted to throw out there.  

I think the "Ice Eyes" hint is intriguing. As far as we know, the Starks no longer have this trait (i.e. their eyes are described as being dark, from what I remember). But the Boltons definitely do. I would second FanTasy's theory that the Starks and Boltons may have mixed bloodlines at some point, or could even be ancient branches of the same family.

But I wonder if there is any special ability connected to "pale eyes", or "ice eyes"? If so, it could be that Roose or Ramsay will see through Melisandre's glamor at some point (assuming they cross paths). But if there isn't a connection, I wonder who these people are that can see through glamors? And, how do they do it?

[the Scorpion Knight]

David C Simmons, on 17 December 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:

I think the Ice Eyes connection is significant, but its not the most significant part of the story. History repeats itself, and in that story slavers conquered northern kingdoms based on the vulnerability of northen leadership, Edrick Stark.

Much in the same way that the Ironborn have done to the north and betrayers such as the Boltons(who are about to witness it at Winterfell) and the Freys. The North and the Starks are coming back with a vegeance.

What happened to the slavers when they were defeated by the Winter? They were given to their slaves and their intestines were hung on the heart trees. All of this talk about blood sacrifices of the north, the Frey Pies, the re-emergence of the White Walkers and COTF,  and the flashbacks that Bran sees of human sacrifices, it's setting up a ending in which all of these pretenders will not only be defeated, but they will be destoyed by Winter itself as well as it's Kings.

IDK if the Starks and their bannermen(Northern lords, Others, COTF, etc) will be come 'evil' but they will remake the 7 kingdoms in Ice and snow and the only ones who will really oppose them are the Dragons.

It doesnt matter if the southern kingdoms outnumber the northern kingdoms. No one has every conquered the north and the fact that the Boltons, Freys and Ironborn have taken control of the north via schemes and feasting on the vulnerable is the reason why Winter is coming with a vegeance.

If the north ever goes south again, united under one banner they are also bringing all of winter with them and they southern lords can hide in their castles but the northen armies and the winter will starve them out and freeze them out and they will be slaughtered. Potentially the White Walkers will even be aligned with the North. If that's the case then pray Dany gets there in time because she has already envisioned fighting the Others at the Trident and Im sure the Northen kingdom and Starks will be among them.

If she sees herself fighting the Others at the trident that means either the Others have already defeated and fought through the northen armies and are on there way south or that the northen armies and white walkers join forces. There is no other way that could happen.

The Old Gods are the Gods of westeros. They are the Gods of the COTF and the First Men.
R'hillor comes from Valyria and the Seven came with the Andals from Essos. Westeros is not their country.

This Winter will be a long one and you can already see that the Freys and Boltons days are numbered by the way the 5th book ended. The Ironborn werent really a threat to begin with(unless Victarion brings a dragon) and they will be defeated shortly. Maybe even Asha and Theon can somehow gain control from Euron.

The North shouldnt fear the Ironborn, Boltons or Freys because their demise is coming via Winter.
Even Roose Bolton was scared towards the end.

They way the 5th book went to me....The southern kingdoms are their leaders are political savy leaders that defeated the north via schemes(The Red Wedding; Littlefinger betraying Ned; Arya Stark/Jeyne Poole switch;) because basically the Northen leaders were never and will never be politically savy people. They are generals and soldiers. Remember, Ned Stark basically one the Rebellion for Robert Baratheon. How did the Southern Lannisters gain power? They pretended to be allies of the Mad King then when they were let inside they slaughtered everyone. Schemers. Thats why I never gave Tywin Lannister credit as a great commander. He's more of a coward to me. Also remember, Rob Stark never lost a battle.

The North won every battle and lost the war and the only northen territory that was as savy as the southern kingdoms is roose bolton and the boltons. Roose Bolton has ambitions and is smart enough to fufill them even if it means using southern tactics to gain them. Can't be mad at that, but it brings me to the 5th book.

IDK when Lord Manderly started this scheme, but this scheme is amazing because he's playing the Game of Thrones and schemes of the south, but the reprocussions of his scheme will be waaay more brutal than what the South did to the North. Frey pies? Seriously? The story of what the north did to the step stone slavers? Human sacrifices to heart tress? The North remembers? Winter is Coming? Winter is coming indeed to the South and all those who opposed the North.

The North has been humiliated and defeated via bertayels and schemes. If thats the way wars are one nowadays then lets show the South the North's true face. And thats exactly what manderly and partners are about to do.

'You Southern Lords and your weary alliances have schemed your way into destroying our Kingdom and our King. You forsaked your honor and killed our young wolf beneath your roof. You killed our liege lord and branded him a traitor and held his mangled head high enough for the world to see. You burned Winterfell to the ground and burned the riverlands to ash and sinew. Your days are numbered. However, as you laugh at our temporary defeat and decorate spikes with the heads of our leaders, remember this. The North remembers.... and Winter is Coming. When we cross the Neck with the North united and the winds behind us, remember this. The North remembers....and Winter is coming. As the foreign snow falls and you run inside your castles and homes leaving your plants and livestock to freeze in the cold, remember this. The North remembers....and Winter is Coming. When there is no more food and no wood for fire. When frostbite and disease takes over your kingdoms. When your children die in you arms and your tears freeze on your cheeks. When you beg for death and beg for mercy, and beg to bend the knee as we break down your doors, remember this. The North remembers....and Winter has come. Now run off to your Southern kingdoms and repeat what I said. Tell the Dragon that it doesn't matter how many foreign dishonored followers join him, he cannot stop the cold winds from rising.'

i agree most people in the novels will laugh at first and later soil them selves once the north shows westeros its true monsters
(tyrions reactions would be funny IMO)

[BrosBeforeSnows]

tze, on 17 December 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

I always thought the Boltons' habit of wearing other people's skins was them trying, and failing, to emulate the Starks. Not that the Starks flayed their enemies, but that the ancient Starks were probably skinchangers, and could "wear the skins" of men and beasts. The Boltons were approximating the Starks' abilities in the same way that the maesters now approximate the ancient First Men's usage of the ravens as messengers; they can imitate it, but they can't really accomplish the same thing as the people they're copying.

That's an interesting theory.

tze, on 17 December 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

It's interesting that the Andals' approach to Westeros was apparently to kill off as many of the original inhabitants as they could and simply replace them---culturally, linguistically, and religiously. This contrasts starkly with how the First Men adopted the ways of the Children (and possibly even the Others as well). The Targaryens then came in and basically threw off Valyrian culture in favor of Andal culture (with the noted exceptions of polygamy and incest, but they didn't allow the population at large to do these things, only themselves), while apparently ignoring the remaining cultures of the First Men (Aegon the Conqueror adopted the Seven but chose not to adopt the Old Gods (or even the Drowned God),etc.)

A major theme so far has been the dangers of ethnocentrism, so I can absolutely see the Andal cultures and the Targaryens, who failed to understand or acclimate to the native Westerosi (the Children, giants, and possibly the Others) having that failure come back to bite them, while people like the Starks end up succeeding and thriving because they are more intimately tied into the extremely powerful forces native to Westeros.

The story of Brandon Ice-Eyes is basically a story of how the Starks and the Northmen are the only force really capable of surviving and thriving in winter (from the maps we've been given, there doesn't appear to be any other landmass parallel to the North (the bottom of the Westerosi North is about parallel to the top of Essos)), so the Northmen's culture is necessarily unique. And the point is that winter will kill everyone else, but it won't kill the Starks; if the Others come during winter, then a connection between the Starks and the Others makes sense, in that the Others will kill everybody except the Starks/Northmen.

I see this a little differently. We know that the First Men initially resisted the Old Gods and the CotF (i.e. they fought a prolonged war against them, and chopped down many of their weirwood trees). Their conversion only came later.

The common line of thinking is, we know that the Old Gods have special powers, whereas the Seven do not, so the Old Gods must be true, and the Seven must be false.

I see it this way; the Old Gods are not a human religion. Mankind was never meant to see into the future, or invade the bodies of other animals. If everyone were to embrace such a religion, it could seriously screw up human society.

Due to our perspective, we associate the Old Gods with the Starks, and associate Starks with the good guys, so we often overlook some of the more sinister aspects of their religion. But consider warging, for example. What's actually going on there? Someone is invading the body and mind of another living being and stealing their free will. When Bran wargs with Hodor, for instance, Hodor is terrified by the experience, yet Bran continues regardless. It's not a nice thing to be doing, in other words.

The same can be said for R'hllor. There are aspects to that religion that we know are sinister (namely, burning people to death in sacrifice). If all of humanity were to embrace such a religion, society would be doomed. If we could all look into the fires and read the future like Moqorro, what would be the point of living? Humans were never meant to see their future.

These religions, IMO, are incompatible with society, and were never meant for humanity in the first place (at least in the case of the Old Gods). The Seven, however, are a very human religion, that can provide balance and order in the world. There is no seeing into the future, there is no shooting fireballs from your body (like Melisandre did when she killed Orell's eagle), there is no blood magic, and there is no body-snatching, either. This is a good thing.

It may be taboo to say, but there is a fine line between tolerance and madness. Where do we draw the line? Tolerate another religion... that sounds good, but what if that religion practices cannibalism, or sex slavery, or something that is inherently intolerable (i.e. incompatible with society)? Should it be tolerated then?

In this case, I'd say ethnocentrism is a good thing. There's a reason why Aegon rejected the Old Gods.

In history, it's relatable to Kublai Khan. During his reign, he crushed a cannibalistic cult in Central Asia. In their religion, they'd lure travelers into their homes, kill them, cook them and eat them. By doing this, they believed they were gaining their victim's life-force. It was a practice based in spiritualism, but clearly fucked up, and Kublai Khan was right in stamping it out.

Warging is much the same (how would you like Bran warging with you, for example?), and humanity would be well-justified in wiping the Old Gods out, IMO.

Edited by BrosBeforeSnows, 17 December 2011 - 08:31 PM.

[tze]

BrosBeforeSnows, on 17 December 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

see this a little differently. We know that the First Men initially resisted the Old Gods and the CotF (i.e. they fought a prolonged war against them, and chopped down many of their weirwood trees). Their conversion only came later.

That's true, but I think it's relevant that there was, in the end, a conversion. The Andals never took that step at all. They never made any peace with the Children and made no pact with the First Men (though there was clearly intermarriage). Hell, the war between the Andals and the First Men is still being fought in the Vale (between the Lords of the Vale and the mountain clans).

BrosBeforeSnows, on 17 December 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

I see it this way; the Old Gods are not a human religion. Mankind was never meant to see into the future, or invade the bodies of other animals. If everyone were to embrace such a religion, it could seriously screw up human society.

Due to our perspective, we associate the Old Gods with the Starks, and associate Starks with the good guys, so we often overlook some of the more sinister aspects of their religion. But consider warging, for example. What's actually going on there? Someone is invading the body and mind of another living being and stealing their free will. When Bran wargs with Hodor, for instance, Hodor is terrified by the experience, yet Bran continues regardless. It's not a nice thing to be doing, in other words.

The same can be said for R'hllor. There are aspects to that religion that we know are sinister (namely, burning people to death in sacrifice). If all of humanity were to embrace such a religion, society would be doomed. If we could all look into the fires and read the future like Moqorro, what would be the point of living? Humans were never meant to see their future.

These religions, IMO, are incompatible with society, and were never meant for humanity in the first (at least in the case of the Old Gods). The Seven, however, are a very human religion, that can provide balance and order in the world. There is no seeing into the future, there is no shooting fireballs from your body (like Melisandre did when she killed Orell's eagle), there is no blood magic, and there is no body-snatching, either. This is a good thing.

I actually see it in the opposite way from you. Warging can be pure taking, as we saw with Varamyr and with Bran/Hodor, or it can be a give-and-take process; Jon, for example, isn't just invading Ghost's mind, he's giving a part of himself to Ghost. It's like the difference between sex and rape; just because the latter is bad doesn't mean people shouldn't engage in the former.

As to what is good for human society, I think it all depends on what kind of human society we're talking about here. The Faith of the Seven isn't just a human-based religion, it's a human-centric religion. Nature is looked at in terms of what it can immediately do for humans, not as having any intrinsic value for its own sake. In AFFC, for example, Brother Norbert justifies gelding Stranger by claiming that "The Smith gave men horses to help them in their labors." The horse only has "value" by benefiting humans. More than that, the assumption is that nature exists only to serve humans. That's an incredibly presumptuous outlook, since it ignores how easily the forces of nature can squash humanity like a bug (as we saw during the Long Night and the Doom of Valyria). This attitude might work for humans in the short term, but in the long term, it's not a winning strategy, because humans are part of nature but nature itself is inherently more powerful than humans, and expecting the more powerful force to just naturally serve the less powerful force is just setting yourself up for failure.

R'hllor is also a human-centric religion, and it assumes the force of nature it sees as most apparently beneficial to humans---fire---must be inherently "good" and must actually work to humanity's long-term benefit. It doesn't see nature as a force divorced from human considerations, it sees nature as a force primarily concerned with humans and human desires. The cold must bring evil because (in most places) humans can't thrive in the cold, only in the heat. There must be a great war between R'hllor and the Great Other being acted out in nature, not because that's what nature actually shows us, but simply because that's what is easiest for this particular human society to understand. The problem is that fire doesn't care who and what it burns---it just consumes. By seeing it as they want to see it---as a human-centric and human-controlled force---the followers of R'hllor are trying to impose their view of the world on natural forces that are not beholden to them and do not care about how they want the world to work.

With the Old Gods, it's the forces of nature itself that are worshiped, life and death together, not because that's the most convenient and beneficial thing for human society, but because that's what nature itself requires. Death feeds life, life feeds death, winter is just as necessary as summer. It's not that the Old Gods are "alien" to humanity, it's just that the Old Gods put humanity in touch with primal forces that other humans, with their human-centric worldview, are simply not equipped to comprehend. Jojen Reed says that the future cannot be changed; he can see it, but he can't alter it. Others like Melisandre (and possibly the Undying and Quaithe) who see the future assume that visions of the future must be changeable, "or else why can we see it at all?" It's not that some greater being "doesn't mean" for humans to see the future, it's that for most people, "seeing the future" perpetuates the illusion that they're able to control far more things than they actually can. This makes far more sense in a religious climate where humanity is seen as the be-all and end-all of the world than it does in a religious climate where humanity is part of nature but nature is not centered around humanity, and has the potential to cause far more human suffering in the former than in the latter.

The Others come in the cold, and for most of the world, that means they must be "evil" because humans don't live in cold climates anywhere but in the North of Westeros. But as we've seen, winter prevents population explosions (not just of humans, but of all creatures); it provides the counterbalance to the growth of spring and summer. Just because some humans can't coexist with winter doesn't make it "evil", or even necessarily harmful to all of humanity (no more so than summer itself, the time humans find it most beneficial to go to war against each other). If the Others are actually coming to protect the followers of the Old Gods, then that would basically transform human society by weeding out cultures that view themselves as the center of the universe. Is that harmful for humanity in the long run? It's harmful for one type of human society but beneficial to another type. In fact, the society of the First Men that's thrived in the North of Westeros has endured more centuries and more conflicts than any other human society we've yet seen. To me, that speaks against the idea that worshiping the Old Gods is harmful to human society.

Edited by tze, 17 December 2011 - 09:31 PM.

[David C. Hunter]

BrosBeforeSnows, on 17 December 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

That's an interesting theory.



I see this a little differently. We know that the First Men initially resisted the Old Gods and the CotF (i.e. they fought a prolonged war against them, and chopped down many of their weirwood trees). Their conversion only came later.

The common line of thinking is, we know that the Old Gods have special powers, whereas the Seven do not, so the Old Gods must be true, and the Seven must be false.

I see it this way; the Old Gods are not a human religion. Mankind was never meant to see into the future, or invade the bodies of other animals. If everyone were to embrace such a religion, it could seriously screw up human society.

Due to our perspective, we associate the Old Gods with the Starks, and associate Starks with the good guys, so we often overlook some of the more sinister aspects of their religion. But consider warging, for example. What's actually going on there? Someone is invading the body and mind of another living being and stealing their free will. When Bran wargs with Hodor, for instance, Hodor is terrified by the experience, yet Bran continues regardless. It's not a nice thing to be doing, in other words.

The same can be said for R'hllor. There are aspects to that religion that we know are sinister (namely, burning people to death in sacrifice). If all of humanity were to embrace such a religion, society would be doomed. If we could all look into the fires and read the future like Moqorro, what would be the point of living? Humans were never meant to see their future.

These religions, IMO, are incompatible with society, and were never meant for humanity in the first place (at least in the case of the Old Gods). The Seven, however, are a very human religion, that can provide balance and order in the world. There is no seeing into the future, there is no shooting fireballs from your body (like Melisandre did when she killed Orell's eagle), there is no blood magic, and there is no body-snatching, either. This is a good thing.

It may be taboo to say, but there is a fine line between tolerance and madness. Where do we draw the line? Tolerate another religion... that sounds good, but what if that religion practices cannibalism, or sex slavery, or something that is inherently intolerable (i.e. incompatible with society)? Should it be tolerated then?

In this case, I'd say ethnocentrism is a good thing. There's a reason why Aegon rejected the Old Gods.

In history, it's relatable to Kublai Khan. During his reign, he crushed a cannibalistic cult in Central Asia. In their religion, they'd lure travelers into their homes, kill them, cook them and eat them. By doing this, they believed they were gaining their victim's life-force. It was a practice based in spiritualism, but clearly fucked up, and Kublai Khan was right in stamping it out.

Warging is much the same (how would you like Bran warging with you, for example?), and humanity would be well-justified in wiping the Old Gods out, IMO.

I completely agree, honestly humanity would be better with no religions. Be that as it may, magic isn't dissipating it's returning. By that same logic, then humanity would be welled justified in wiping out dragons as well because human beings weren't meant to train, or fly with dragons. So the Citadel was justified in killing the remaining dragons.

Not everyone who worships the old gods are greenseers and wargs. It is very rare and the stark children are just a special case. Warging is not something people should do, but the direwolves dont really seem to mind with the stark kids do it. In fact it seems more natural.

COTF used to warg with EVERYTHING. The first men opposed it at first but eventually they grew to adopt it and for 4,000 years there was peace.

The seven were relevant in a world where there were no dragons, no white walkers and no magic, but that world is over now and the seven do not have a place anymore which is why  the families that worship the Old Gods or R'hillor will make it to the finals.

These old religions and their magical practices may one day destroy the people. Maybe thats what happened in Valyria, but is not during this song. Maybe when the song is over, magic will dissappear or at least decease, but both powers are fighting the war of the dawn. Magic isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

Quote

With the Old Gods, it's the forces of nature itself that are worshiped, life and death together, not because that's the most convenient and beneficial thing for human society, but because that's what nature itself requires. Death feeds life, life feeds death, winter is just as necessary as summer. It's not that the Old Gods are "alien" to humanity, it's just that the Old Gods put humanity in touch with primal forces that other humans, with their human-centric worldview, are simply not equipped to comprehend. Jojen Reed says that the future cannot be changed; he can see it, but he can't alter it. Others like Melisandre (and possibly the Undying and Quaithe) who see the future assume that visions of the future must be changeable, "or else why can we see it at all?" It's not that some greater being "doesn't mean" for humans to see the future, it's that for most people, "seeing the future" perpetuates the illusion that they're able to control far more things than they actually can. This makes far more sense in a religious climate where humanity is seen as the be-all and end-all of the world than it does in a religious climate where humanity is part of nature but nature is not centered around humanity, and has the potential to cause far more human suffering in the former than in the latter.

The Others come in the cold, and for most of the world, that means they must be "evil" because humans don't live in cold climates anywhere but in the North of Westeros. But as we've seen, winter prevents population explosions (not just of humans, but of all creatures); it provides the counterbalance to the growth of spring and summer. Just because some humans can't coexist with winter doesn't make it "evil", or even necessarily harmful to all of humanity. If the Others are actually coming to protect the followers of the Old Gods, then that would basically transform human society by weeding out cultures that view themselves as the center of the universe. Is that harmful for humanity in the long run? Not necessarily. In fact, the society of the First Men that's thrived in the North of Westeros has endured more centuries and more conflicts than any other human society we've yet seen. To me, that speaks against the idea that worshiping the Old Gods is harmful to human society.

This is basically what I meant. Your better at writing your thoughts.

Edited by David C Simmons, 17 December 2011 - 09:33 PM.

[LordBloodraven]

BrosBeforeSnows, on 17 December 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

I'm wondering if this could be how the Bolton tradition of flaying got started? Perhaps they used to hang skins from heart trees as an offering to the Old Gods? Granted, the tradition itself may have been started for purely sadistic reasons, but traditions like that are generally created out of necessity, even if the true purpose gets forgotten over time.

In any case, it sounds like human sacrifice used to play a rather significant role in Northern culture, way back when.

My theory? The Boltons aren't the only Northern family with gruesome traditions. They're simply the only ones to have retained them into the present day. Perhaps the story of old "Ice Eyes" hanging entrails from trees wasn't an isolated incident, but rather a Stark tradition? Flaying is to Bolton as disemboweling is to Stark... Could be.

But there's got to be something to flaying. A tradition as gnarly as that doesn't just spring up out of nowhere. The Boltons can't be alone.

Maybe the Boltons envied the Starks skinchanging abilities... just saying

[Adam West]

This may be a long shot, but here goes..


MAYBE, just maybe, the Starks have a blood connection with the Others. My theory is that  Benjen/Jon snow will reveal this in the next book. I think they'll retain their conciseness and then have full control of mind and body. Also, Bran may also shed light on the true past of the Stark Kings and their relevance to the current cause behind the wall.

[David C. Hunter]

Adam West, on 17 December 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:

This may be a long shot, but here goes..


MAYBE, just maybe, the Starks have a blood connection with the Others. My theory is that  Benjen/Jon snow will reveal this in the next book. I think they'll retain their conciseness and then have full control of mind and body. Also, Bran may also shed light on the true past of the Stark Kings and their relevance to the current cause behind the wall.

Bran is the key. He maybe able to warg into a white walker or he will become. Just a thought.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

tze, on 17 December 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

That's true, but I think it's relevant that there was, in the end, a conversion. The Andals never took that step at all. They never made any peace with the Children and made no pact with the First Men (though there was clearly intermarriage). Hell, the war between the Andals and the First Men is still being fought in the Vale (between the Lords of the Vale and the mountain clans).



I actually see it in the opposite way from you. Warging can be pure taking, as we saw with Varamyr and with Bran/Hodor, or it can be a give-and-take process; Jon, for example, isn't just invading Ghost's mind, he's giving a part of himself to Ghost. It's like the difference between sex and rape; just because the latter is bad doesn't mean people shouldn't engage in the former.

As to what is good for human society, I think it all depends on what kind of human society we're talking about here. The Faith of the Seven isn't just a human-based religion, it's a human-centric religion. Nature is looked at in terms of what it can immediately do for humans, not as having any intrinsic value for its own sake. In AFFC, for example, Brother Norbert justifies gelding Stranger by claiming that "The Smith gave men horses to help them in their labors." The horse only has "value" by benefiting humans. More than that, the assumption is that nature exists only to serve humans. That's an incredibly presumptuous outlook, since it ignores how easily the forces of nature can squash humanity like a bug (as we saw during the Long Night and the Doom of Valyria). This attitude might work for humans in the short term, but in the long term, it's not a winning strategy, because humans are part of nature but nature itself is inherently more powerful than humans, and expecting the more powerful force to just naturally serve the less powerful force is just setting yourself up for failure.

R'hllor is also a human-centric religion, and it assumes the force of nature it sees as most apparently beneficial to humans---fire---must be inherently "good" and must actually work to humanity's long-term benefit. It doesn't see nature as a force divorced from human considerations, it sees nature as a force primarily concerned with humans and human desires. The cold must bring evil because (in most places) humans can't thrive in the cold, only in the heat. There must be a great war between R'hllor and the Great Other being acted out in nature, not because that's what nature actually shows us, but simply because that's what is easiest for this particular human society to understand. The problem is that fire doesn't care who and what it burns---it just consumes. By seeing it as they want to see it---as a human-centric and human-controlled force---the followers of R'hllor are trying to impose their view of the world on natural forces that are not beholden to them and do not care about how they want the world to work.

With the Old Gods, it's the forces of nature itself that are worshiped, life and death together, not because that's the most convenient and beneficial thing for human society, but because that's what nature itself requires. Death feeds life, life feeds death, winter is just as necessary as summer. It's not that the Old Gods are "alien" to humanity, it's just that the Old Gods put humanity in touch with primal forces that other humans, with their human-centric worldview, are simply not equipped to comprehend. Jojen Reed says that the future cannot be changed; he can see it, but he can't alter it. Others like Melisandre (and possibly the Undying and Quaithe) who see the future assume that visions of the future must be changeable, "or else why can we see it at all?" It's not that some greater being "doesn't mean" for humans to see the future, it's that for most people, "seeing the future" perpetuates the illusion that they're able to control far more things than they actually can. This makes far more sense in a religious climate where humanity is seen as the be-all and end-all of the world than it does in a religious climate where humanity is part of nature but nature is not centered around humanity, and has the potential to cause far more human suffering in the former than in the latter.

The Others come in the cold, and for most of the world, that means they must be "evil" because humans don't live in cold climates anywhere but in the North of Westeros. But as we've seen, winter prevents population explosions (not just of humans, but of all creatures); it provides the counterbalance to the growth of spring and summer. Just because some humans can't coexist with winter doesn't make it "evil", or even necessarily harmful to all of humanity (no more so than summer itself, the time humans find it most beneficial to go to war against each other). If the Others are actually coming to protect the followers of the Old Gods, then that would basically transform human society by weeding out cultures that view themselves as the center of the universe. Is that harmful for humanity in the long run? It's harmful for one type of human society but beneficial to another type. In fact, the society of the First Men that's thrived in the North of Westeros has endured more centuries and more conflicts than any other human society we've yet seen. To me, that speaks against the idea that worshiping the Old Gods is harmful to human society.

VERY well said.

[slayer420]

If all of this is true where does the wall and the watch fit in? I am really starting to belive that the starks and the others are not enemys. This got me thinking about the vow of the night watch you change a few words and it makes alot more cents

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not begin until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword of the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns within the cold, the night that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come

Edited by slayer420, 17 December 2011 - 10:20 PM.