Starks + Others = Kings of Winter?

[kissdbyfire]

Sure it can (maunderings isn't quite the word either, but whatever).

Unless you believe without reservations the MacCumber story. And that Dragons really did originate, in their millions, out of another moon which cracked open releasing them, or stars are horses made of fire, etc etc. These are all undisputed origin stories.

You have to remember it is all POV. If we had two modern western POVs, for example, you might get one story about Adam and Eve, and one about the Big Bang, both of which would be fully believed and told as inimicable 'truth' by their own POVx. Both 'know' their truth from the observations and experiences. They might even both be correct. :D

Sons->WW is the what the wife believes is truth. Doesn't mean it is. It still needs to be looked at in relation to what else is known, and what the source is likely to have actually experienced or not. And generally speaking, it falls down horribly when you look at it in those ways.

Yes, I agree. The wife who tells Sam he must go because 'Craster's sons' are coming clearly seems to believe that to be true, but that doesn't mean IT IS. Craster is, IMO a great character but an awful 'person'; maybe even worse than Ramsay who seems to be, to me, a sadistic sociopath; Craster doesn't have that 'excuse'. I think the tales he tells both to his wives/daughters and to everyone else about his sacrifices are pure hooey. I don't think he believes any of it, and I think he uses this to get rid of the possible competition his sons could become, or even an end to his way of life.

1. Because she could feel the cold rising, the cold that comes with the white walkers.

2. Who knows. Could be either, but I rather suspect they were merely following the fleeing remnants of the NW that they had already smashed in 'battle'. I would guess the old woman though might think they had come for the babe.

Agree. She probably thought the WWs were coming for the babe, but I think it's because of what Craster has been telling them for ages. All the women at Craster's keep seem to be suffering some form of Stockholm syndrome.

And, yes, I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

:-)

[Binadas Sengar]

Did ayone else pick up on Aliser Thornetalking about coming back as an other in ADWD? It was right before Jon sent him outon a ranging. He said somethig to the effect of hope I die to a wildling blade because if I am killedby an other/come back as a wight they remember and I will be coming for you! Is he just blow harding or foes he know something?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Did ayone else pick up on Aliser Thornetalking about coming back as an other in ADWD? It was right before Jon sent him outon a ranging. He said somethig to the effect of hope I die to a wildling blade because if I am killedby an other/come back as a wight they remember and I will be coming for you! Is he just blow harding or foes he know something?

OK, since you brought up Alliser Thorne, how awesome is this.

House Thorne is a Crownlands house, and Thorne was one of the last defenders of King's Landing, on the Targaryen side, when it was sacked. Tywin told him he could be executed or take the black, and he chose to join the Night's Watch.

Fast forward to him being the bullying master-at-arms and terrorizing the recruits and picking on Jon in particular. The guy he mocks and calls "bastard" and threatens is actually an heir to the dynasty that Thorne gave up everything to defend.

I love little ironies like that. Shows that Martin really does pay attention to everything.

[Black Crow]

Awesome indeed :bowdown:

[corbon]

Did ayone else pick up on Aliser Thornetalking about coming back as an other in ADWD? It was right before Jon sent him outon a ranging. He said somethig to the effect of hope I die to a wildling blade because if I am killedby an other/come back as a wight they remember and I will be coming for you! Is he just blow harding or foes he know something?

By that time I think the NW are now fully aware that the Others are out there and people they kill are often reanimated as wights.

I don;t believe he 'knows' anything more about the process of coming back though. Its just a standard angry-but-powerless threat.

[Eyron]

OK, since you brought up Alliser Thorne, how awesome is this.

House Thorne is a Crownlands house, and Thorne was one of the last defenders of King's Landing, on the Targaryen side, when it was sacked. Tywin told him he could be executed or take the black, and he chose to join the Night's Watch.

Fast forward to him being the bullying master-at-arms and terrorizing the recruits and picking on Jon in particular. The guy he mocks and calls "bastard" and threatens is actually an heir to the dynasty that Thorne gave up everything to defend.

I love little ironies like that. Shows that Martin really does pay attention to everything.

Oooooh this is great!

I hope Alliser lives to hear this... The bastard really is his lord and king :) I would love it.

[Binadas Sengar]

OK, since you brought up Alliser Thorne, how awesome is this.

House Thorne is a Crownlands house, and Thorne was one of the last defenders of King's Landing, on the Targaryen side, when it was sacked. Tywin told him he could be executed or take the black, and he chose to join the Night's Watch.

Fast forward to him being the bullying master-at-arms and terrorizing the recruits and picking on Jon in particular. The guy he mocks and calls "bastard" and threatens is actually an heir to the dynasty that Thorne gave up everything to defend.

I love little ironies like that. Shows that Martin really does pay attention to everything.

Sounds like he has a biter pil to swallow if he lives. Someone from the watch has to survive Jeor, Janos, Qhorin, Aemon, maybe Benjen, Donal are gone and it kind of emphasizes how little Jon is left with. Nearly everyone we've noticed in the watch is dead. It is hard to see how Bowen and company can sit around watching the Watch wither away as their challenges become more dire and not be glad for a man like leathers being with them. Janos got what he had coming but maybe just maybe Aliser will return from his ranging changed a bit for the better or at least focused on the real threat.

[Arya Targaryen]

Fast forward to him being the bullying master-at-arms and terrorizing the recruits and picking on Jon in particular. The guy he mocks and calls "bastard" and threatens is actually an heir to the dynasty that Thorne gave up everything to defend.

I noticed that as well. I'm looking forward to seeing Ser Alliser realising who Jon is. (So he must be alive!)

[Night's Scotch]

By that time I think the NW are now fully aware that the Others are out there and people they kill are often reanimated as wights.

I don;t believe he 'knows' anything more about the process of coming back though. Its just a standard angry-but-powerless threat.

agreed. it's like telling your buddy "if you get me killed, I'm gonna come back and haunt your ass," except in this case, the dead ARE coming back

[Binadas Sengar]

agreed. it's like telling your buddy "if you get me killed, I'm gonna come back and haunt your ass," except in this case, the dead ARE coming back

I know that is the most likely possibility but he has been there a long time. Someone on the wall has to know more. My fear is that person is Benjen who is dead or gone. Aliser kneeling to Jon and meaning it (If She-Wolf's prediction comes true and I hope it does) will be one sweet moment. I hope it is a fully alive Jon he is kneeling to not a wight-Jon.

[alienarea]

Not sure if this is the right thread but I have been thinking a lot about Benjen and why we haven't seen his body. And somehow the lines from AGoT describing him as very thin and the two types of Starks (in a nutshell: wild and furry vs clean-shaven) lead me to draw a connection to the Others.

Basically, if that very early Stark who was the king of winter took a female Other for a wife, some of the Others genes will still be in the Stark bloodline. That for example could allow the Starks to warg. So when Benjen goes ranging and is attacked by the Others who slay his fellow NW brothers, maybe they detect he is one of their kin as well and spare him?

Unrelated question: apparently he haven't had reports on a female Other since the king of winter. Why?

Another thought: Is it possible that Others can't breed among themselves anymore, i.e. male Other + human wife = White Walker while female Other + human man = human with warging abilities. Then the Others from "now" would be different from the original others, i.e. a hybrid?

And that is possibly what saves Jon.

[Night's Scotch]

Unrelated question: apparently he haven't had reports on a female Other since the king of winter. Why?

I think Ser Ermey of Leatherneck Island (His shield is painted with an Eagle, wings spread, mounting a globe, intersected by a fouled anchor, he carries a Valyrian Steel Mameluke sword, and his house's words are Semper Fidelis) said it best:

"I don't know, but I've been told, Other p&$$y is mighty cold!"

:P

[alienarea]

I think Ser Ermey of Leatherneck Island (His shield is painted with an Eagle, wings spread, mounting a globe, intersected by a fouled anchor, he carries a Valyrian Steel Mameluke sword, and his house's words are Semper Fidelis) said it best:

"I don't know, but I've been told, Other p&$$y is mighty cold!"

:P

Those coward Leathernecks again ... :dunno:

[chrisdaw]

Interesting Craster quote that might link to this theory.

"Who's this one now?" Craster said before Jon could go. "He has the look of a Stark."

Exactly how many Starks has Craster known that he can determine the look of a Stark at a glance? Benjen is the only (other) Stark we know he's seen three years before he said this quote, other unmentioned Starks within his lifetime are possible if unlikely, and even so the quote would still be highly suspicious.

[4rcane]

After watching Game of Thrones season 2, last episode when camera pan out on the army of White Walkers and Wights, you see one or two of them holding a Stark Emblem Shield. It made me think of this thread. It made me think that maybe the Others are Stark's allies. The Starks were their representatives down south from an ancient pact. Since the destruction of the Starks, the Others feel this ancient pact is void and null

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

After watching Game of Thrones season 2, last episode when camera pan out on the army of White Walkers and Wights, you see one or two of them holding a Stark Emblem Shield. It made me think of this thread. It made me think that maybe the Others are Stark's allies. The Starks were their representatives down south from an ancient pact. Since the destruction of the Starks, the Others feel this ancient pact is void and null

And how is it that the Starks represent Others? By building the Wall, by constantly supporting the Night's Watch...

[tze]

Ned's Valyrian steel sword "Ice" was supposedly named for a previous sword held by the Starks during the Age of Heroes. Given the Starks' choice of sword names, it might be relevant that GRRM has confirmed that the Others' swords are, in fact, made of ice: http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Do you know what substance an Other sword is made from.

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

Given the Starks' associations with the Long Night, and given that the Others wield swords of ice, perhaps the fact that the Starks kept naming their family sword "Ice", both in the Age of Heroes and in the present, is a hint about the Starks' past.