kissdbyfire

The order of events in Bran’s vision seems very clear to me... and in this part specifically it’s Lyanna and Benjen, the pregnant woman, and Dunk and Old Nan. So, the pregnant woman being tied into the whole Bael thing would feel a bit weird, because that’s just way too recent for no one to ever bring it up at all.

FWIW: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

Definitely. Then again, maybe not. I want nothing more than for Dawn and AD to play significant roles, so to speak. But the possibility exists for not much more being revealed about either or both. For instance, if way back when Martin just thought about giving the lady Ashara Dayne a somewhat mysterious brother with a very cool sword. Mind you, I don’t think that’s the case, but it is within the realm of possibilities imo. Not sure I follow... I get the LH/NK bit but not sure what you mean by “Day’s King”. I think you mean the sword (underlined)? But it’s not that the legend says the sword should only be used against supernatural foes, but that ser Galladon refused to use it against mortal enemies. “Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair.” This x “n”.

It’s a Meereen chapter, I expected better. The KG serve the king, and it’s to the king they swear their vows. The king may extend their ‘services’, most commonly to close family. But the king may also decide to keep all 7 exclusively in his own service. ADwD, The Queensguard “The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.”

Fuck knows. Seriously, it’s actually literally impossible to be sure w/ the information we have been given so far. There are a number of possibilities that seem... viable at the moment imo. One thing I’m fairly certain of is, when we get the “full” reveal, there will be more layers and more greyness and more... questions! Nor will you. Well, not until Marin fills in the [many] blanks.

No, it really isn’t. Or else, support your claim. Lyanna vanished, and the Rebellion kicked off many months later. Again, no. Many months in between, like I said. If Lyanna’s abduction/whatever is to blame, then we can also blame the tourney at HH? Or maybe Aerys’ mum and dad for having fathered him? Nope, the trigger to the Rebellion was Aerys demanding that Arryn murders his wards and send their heads to KL.

Maybe I missed it, but I haven’t seen anyone saying that. Because it’s really silly, innit? Of course Martin plays tricks, plenty of them. Only he doesn’t play them forever, and then spring something out of a hat that hadn’t been mentioned or hinted at at all previously. @three-eyed monkey has an excellent recent post on this, just can’t recall where.

No, what “unleashed revolution across the kingdom” was a king who was clearly insane demanding the heads of two nobles whose protection had been entrusted to a third, after said mad, deranged, unfit-to-rule king had already murdered two nobles.

These are all very fair points. I have been thinking about Dayne as Jon’s dad as you propose. I have to say, nothing would please me more. There are two Targs I really like, Egg and Baelor Breakspear. So, yeah. And even though we don’t really know that much about the last [known] Sword of the Morning, I will say the idea of him and Lyanna being Jon’s parents is enticing... still, when all is said and done we only have very little in terms of indisputable facts and have to go w/ limited actual info, I don’t really see anything fitting as well as R+L=J. All the doubts and iffy stuff in the text, all the possibilities it leaves open, are the distractions, the red herrings. Or I could be totally wrong.

How have you reached this conclusion?

With what we know at present we have to at least consider the possibility of that happening. At some point, and for whatever reason (but most likely imo, a combo of reasons), Dayne. Whent and Hightower break their KG vows and unequivocally side w/ Rhaegar. But... <snip> This may have been part of the “deal”. We do have Rhaegar telling Jaime he was planning on making changes, and that he regretted not having acted sooner. There’s a whole lot that was triggered at some point. IMO this point is Rickard and Brandon’s “execution”. Aerys had to go, and stay go. I think that, with what we have, we must at least allow for the possibility that Rhaegar came clean about his ideas to those he hadn’t before, like Hightower (b/c I think it very likely that Dayne and Went were already acting as they’re sworn to Rhaegar imo). And Hightower goes w/ it; against his vows, but for the greater good. Only the idea is to remove Aerys as “diplomatically”as possible and keep the Targ dynasty in power. So Rhaegar has them staying at the ToJ, and goes back to KL to lead the loyalist army. The rest is history... And to be clear, I’m not saying this is what happened, only that it could have happened. Yes, and Jaime was the wild card. Also, @Lord Varys, I have seen you argue differently before regarding the KG duty to follow orders from anyone but the king. Yes, usually they do protect and obey royals in general, especially the king’s immediate family. But we know that that is at the kings’ orders.

Speaking of muddled brains... I think I’ve read the whole thread but I could be wrong. Where are you on Jon’s parents? Lyanna and Dayne?

Well, I must say it is a pleasure to be able to speculate w/ such fine and well-versed posters, even if we disagree more often than not.

I never said it was a good or bad decision, nor that Aerys had instructed them this way or that way, did I? My point was that I personally don’t care for a KG knight who sticks to his vows when in doing so they are betraying what it means to be a true knight. We don’t really have an awful lot info on any of that, though, do we? We know Darry apparently had no problems standing guard while Aerys raped and brutalised Rhaella, and that Hightower reminded Jaime that the KG vows are about protecting the king, not judging him. Which indicates that he knew it was wrong imo. So, yeah, maybe it did get to a point where the KG, or some KG members had had enough. No, not suddenly at all. As you pointed out, they had seen Aerys’s act like a mad, cruel, unstable, dangerous person many times. And at some point it just becomes too much. Also, not sure why you’re banging on about the oath-breaking, since I never said they weren’t oath-breakers, but rather that there are instances where breaking your oath is the only decent thing you can do. No argument from me on this.

I tend to agree here, but the fact is, we can’t really be sure. Indeed. Agree completely. I never said otherwise...

I don’t really see it. Of course, that doesn’t mean it’s not there. And all we can do until we get more actual info is to speculate unto death. Which is what we’ve been doing. But I very much agree w/ all the points @Nevets made above.

That only means she knew they were dead, but not necessarily how they died.

@three-eyed monkey, I agree w/ the gist about vows and promises, and how there is a huge difference between duty and honour. Regarding Dayne, Whent, and Hightower, I think it’s very possible and even likely (IMO) that they made a choice and were truly following Rhaegar and not Aerys. This came up elsewhere a couple of days ago, and I said this, “Which could mean that they consciously broke their vows to a deranged and dangerous king because they understood that that was what honour, not duty, demanded of them. “ That said, what @corbon said in reply is also possible, and w/ the info we have at present it’s impossible to be sure either way. I much prefer the idea that the 3KG indeed broke their vows and did the right thing. I think it fits much better in the story. But I am aware I could very well be wrong.

Lyanna came to represent to the Robert we meet in AGoT what “could have been” instead of “what is”, and what is is what his life is now: a crown he doesn’t care for, a loveless and toxic marriage to someone he doesn’t love, children he barely acknowledges.

ASoS, Epilogue “Not murder.” His voice was shrill. “It was vengeance, we had a right to our vengeance. It was war. Aegon, we called him Jinglebell, a poor lackwit never hurt anyone, Lady Stark cut his throat. We lost half a hundred men in the camps. Ser Garse Goodbrook, Kyra’s husband, and Ser Tytos, Jared’s son . . . someone smashed his head in with an axe . . . Stark’s direwolf killed four of our wolfhounds and tore the kennelmaster’s arm off his shoulder, even after we’d filled him full of quarrels . . . ” “So you sewed his head on Robb Stark’s neck after both o’ them were dead,” said yellow cloak. “My father did that. All I did was drink. You wouldn’t kill a man for drinking.” Merrett remembered something then, something that might be the saving of him. “They say Lord Beric always gives a man a trial, that he won’t kill a man unless something’s proved against him. You can’t prove anything against me. The Red Wedding was my father’s work, and Ryman’s and Lord Bolton’s. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they’re the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness.” “As it happens, you’re wrong there.” The singer turned to the hooded woman. “Milady?”

Entirely possible. As to how Ned and Selmy etc think about them, well, they may be as much in the dark irt the details as we are, or even more so!

Which could mean that they consciously broke their vows to a deranged and dangerous king because they understood that that was what honour, not duty, demanded of them.

But you said all she had to do was get him far enough so his men can’t hear. Now you’re saying it’s “obviously” because yadda yadda yadda. Here’s what you said: “She has to get him away from his men, so they cannot come to his aid when she attacks, and so she can escape afterwards. The "somewhere" she is taking need be nothing else than: too far to call for help.

Am I? And aren’t I? I don’t recall having ever interacted w/ you before. So pardon me if your statement seems very funny to me, b/c you speak as if you knew me so well. And of course you don’t have to agree w/ a mob! This one actually made me happy, I have always wanted to be in a mob. But I promise you, I am open to possibilities. As long they make sense, that is. The one you are proposing here doesn’t. I already explained why, and you already explained why you are not convinced by my (and many others’) arguments. Fair enough. We will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that for now. We’ll talk again when Winds is out.

If all she needs is to get Jaime out of earshot from his camp, why does she tell him the place they’re going is “a day’s ride” away? ADwD, Jaime “I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth. “Where is she?” “A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.” (tried to keep the quote as short as possible)