Starks + Others = Kings of Winter?

[David C. Hunter]

The only people who know of the white walkers are the nights watch and followers of the light and the nights watch except Jon snow seem to fear the wildlings more then the white walkers.(I'm kidding but you know what I mean) The only ones who call the white walkers evil are the r'hllor followers. white walkers are coming to protect the starks

[Francis Buck]

Here's a shortened version of my theory, which includes the exact thing being talked about in this topic:

I think that the history of the world, particularly ancient history (beyond a few thousand years or so) is more or less completely unreliable. Well, not completely, but it's very distorted. GRRM has sprinkled numerous hints throughout the series that the generally accepted history of the world may not be the whole truth, and is in-fact more akin to being legends derived from history, as opposed to actual historical fact in and of itself. I think this is most important when it comes to the Others.

Now I come to magic and it's connection with religion. I do not believe that, at least in GRRM's mind, there are any actual "gods" per se. I don't think there's actually a R'hllor, or the Seven Gods of the Faith, or anything really. I think this is partially supported by the fact that even the old gods seem to have turned out to not really be "true" gods in the typical sense of the word, but simply a group of incredibly powerful wargs capable of near omniscient awareness and knowledge. In addition, I also believe that magic itself is really just one "thing"; all magic comes from the same "source", whatever that may be, and is simply attributed to different gods and deities by the humans that use it. There's also a lot of similarities between much of the magic in the world, particularly that of resurrection and prophecy. We have seen resurrection in many forms, from the Others and their necromancy, to R'hllor and the red priests, and even with the seemingly unrelated blood magic. In addition, prophecy also appears in at least three different "schools" of magic: looking into fire, greendreams, and again blood magic (Maggy's prophecies about Cersei). I don't think all of these connections are simply coincidental or arbitrary; it's because all magic is essentially the same, just used or "manifested" in different ways. In other words, I think that, for example, the resurrection used by the Others and the resurrection used by red priests are fundamentally the same kind of magic, just used for different purposes.

The real point here kind of comes down to Jon. I believe Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre in much the same way Cat was. However, I think Jon will be rather different than he was before (again, GRRM has been quoted saying that were will be a "graying" of Jon's character, which I think we began to see a little bit of in aDwD, and which will only continue to grow as the series progresses). I think that Jon will essentially become the new Night King. He will go against his vows (which he is theoretically freed of by his "death") and basically rally all of the Night's Watch and the wildings to his cause, which is the retaking of the North and the revival of House Stark. But it goes deeper than all of this. Let me explain my theory about the Others.

The Others are not truly "another species". They were once humans, but had access to great resurrection magic (the same magic used to revive Cat, Beric, etc.). However, I believe that they had used this magic to revive themselves so many times, over so many thousands of years, that they eventually transformed into something very different; all the "fire of life" had gone out of them, and they became beings of cold, both literally and figuratively (though they are NOT inherently evil, simply remorseless and without mercy in their cause, just like Cat). So in a sense, Cat could be viewed as something of a "baby Other" (silly term I know, but you get my meaning). I believe that Melisandre is actually even further along in this process, as we have had hints that she is much older than she appears (likely having been resurrected many times), and is simply using her illusory powers (the jewel upon her neck) to hide her true appearance.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Starks are associated with coldness and winter, to the point of even being known as the Kings of Winter (a title they will soon reclaim). I would not even be surprised if the Others are actually descendants of the northern peoples. But getting back to Jon, I believe Melisandre will ressurect him, and then Jon, freed of his vows, will take her as his wife and truly become the new Night King (the last Night King took a pale women as his bride and could raise and control undead during the night...and what's the only time that the Others and their wights come around? The night). I think the idea that R'hllor's magic and the Others are at odds is actually just another red herring; the two forms of magic are fundamentally intertwined (as you can see, the title of the series, A Song of Ice and Fire, is not so simple as it may seem, and in fact plays upon many different levels of the saga). I also believe that Jon's Targaryen lineage, assuming it's real (which I think it is), does not have to same meaning people think it does. I do not think that Jon will be one of the "three heads of the dragon"; in fact I think the whole three-heads thing is a little over emphasized (though if I had to guess who they were, I would say Dany, Aegon, and Tyrion...but again I don't think this is really super relevant to the story at large).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I really didn't think of the Others when Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark was mentioned. I think it was probably just a moniker that references the Stark grey eyes, or possibly his cold, stern ones. I think that many Stark kings, especially ones with popular family names like Brandon, had nicknames to set them apart — Builder, Burner, Shipwright, Ice Eyes, etc.

My interpretation of the awesome story was this: Don't fuck with the North. They live with honor and are fairly old-school in terms of shooting straight and narrow, but heaven help you if you cross them, betray them, enslave them or in any other way take advantage of that honor. It's really the same basic message as in the rest of the northern chapters — the North remembers. Just like the enslaved northerners eventually got revenge against their slavers, the northerners who were burned by the Freys, Lannisters and Boltons will have their time, too.

As to whether there's an actual Others/Stark connection, I really don't know. I think that the Night's King was probably a Stark (Old Nan suspected he was and she's really the only one who ends up being right), but how much that matters in the here and now, I couldn't say. I do agree that "Winter is coming" is more about a promise of Stark power (they were the "Kings of Winter," after all) and not "just" a warning about the seasons. I also like the idea that the Stark direwolf sigil has its roots in wargs.

I always thought the Boltons' habit of wearing other people's skins was them trying, and failing, to emulate the Starks. Not that the Starks flayed their enemies, but that the ancient Starks were probably skinchangers, and could "wear the skins" of men and beasts. The Boltons were approximating the Starks' abilities in the same way that the maesters now approximate the ancient First Men's usage of the ravens as messengers; they can imitate it, but they can't really accomplish the same thing as the people they're copying.

This is absolutely ingenious. So it's not just that the Boltons wear Stark skins to show victory — they actually want to become them.

Here's a shortened version of my theory, which includes the exact thing being talked about in this topic:

<snipped>

I disagree with the vast majority of this, but it was an interesting read nonetheless.

[ARYa_Nym]

Does anyone have a link to where GRRM said that Jon would become more grey?

The current Starks have dark grey eyes while Roose's are pale.

…she found no trace of her lord’s dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone.

I think that Jon's are darker than normal. I noticed that his eyes are described in the same way that Valyrian steel is.

“Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark that they seemed almost black…”

“Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black...”

Sam once compared Jon's eyes to ice but it's not the same as Arya saying that Roose's eyes were the color of ice.

"Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow

who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice."

Grey eyes are almost always described as cold in the series though.

[weirwood woman]

this topic is a really interesting concept. I think there may well be much to it, this Stark and Others relationship. hmmm keep the thoughts coming.....

[David C. Hunter]

The Winds of Winter book will be all about 'don't fuck with the north.'

[FanTasy]

The current Starks have dark grey eyes while Roose's are pale.

This is not (entirely) true. According to the Wiki all the Stark kids with the Tully looks had/have blue eyes: Robb, Sansa, Bran.

Ned had grey eyes, Jon and Arya have grey eyes. Rickon bright.

Benjen has or had blue eyes.

[Francis Buck]

For the sake of conversation, I believe the Children are allied with the Starks/Others. I don't know why, and I don't have text-based evidence for it (aside from the obvious connection of the Children + the Old Gods + the Starks = the Others). I just genuinely think there's some kind of important connection between all these peoples/factions that most of the fanbase isn't realizing.

I've also yet to see a compelling reason for WHY the Starks couldn't be connected to the Others in an important way. I've seen plenty of people disagree with it, or aspects of it, but I've yet to see anyone postulate a truly believable theory as to why the Starks could NOT definitively be linked to Others.

At least, other than that the Starks are "good" and the Others are "bad", which in GRRM's universe makes little-to-no sense (we've seen time after time that "good" and "bad" are not simple concepts, nor are they easy to distinguish in a realistic world).

[ARYa_Nym]

This is not (entirely) true. According to the Wiki all the Stark kids with the Tully looks had/have blue eyes: Robb, Sansa, Bran.

Ned had grey eyes, Jon and Arya have grey eyes. Rickon bright.

Benjen has or had blue eyes.

I was referring to Stark features of the later generation of Starks. One of them had ice eyes like Roose Bolton does during the time period of the Kings of Winter. Stark eyes are dark grey now.

Cat's description of Brandon:

"And her bethrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark..."

They're known for their grey eyes.

[FanTasy]

I was referring to Stark features of the later generation of Starks. One of them had ice eyes like Roose Bolton does during the time period of the Kings of Winter. Stark eyes are dark grey now.

Cat's description of Brandon:

They're known for their grey eyes.

Interesting. I read this as Catelyn referring to the eye color of Ned. Her children that have his looks have grey eyes (of Rickon we don't know it, according to the Wiki). Her children with the Tully look have blue eyes. So I think it is logical that she refers to grey eyes as 'Stark' eyes for the children of her marriage.

But sadly there is no information in the Wiki about the eye color of Ned's father, his brother Brandon and sister Lyanna. Nor of his mysterious mother. So we don't know where the grey eyecolor of Ned came from,

It is entirely possible that all the Starks before Ned had grey eyes, of course.

Edit: If there is reference in the text for Brandons eyecolor that information should be in the Wiki, I guess. There are bound to be some errors in the Wiki :frown5:

[ARYa_Nym]

Interesting. I read this as Catelyn referring to the eye color of Ned. Her children that have his looks have grey eyes (of Rickon we don't know it, according to the Wiki). Her children with the Tully look have blue eyes. So I think it is logical that she refers to grey eyes as 'Stark' eyes for the children of her marriage.

But sadly there is no information in the Wiki about the eye color of Ned's father, his brother Brandon and sister Lyanna. Nor of his mysterious mother. So we don't know where the grey eyecolor of Ned came from,

It is entirely possible that all the Starks before Ned had grey eyes, of course.

Edit: If there is reference in the text for Brandons eyecolor that information should be in the Wiki, I guess.

Cat was talking about Brandon. It was when she was pleading for him to spare Littlefinger's life.

She later described Ned's eyes as dark grey.

"…The head had been rejoined to the body with fine silver wire...she found no trace of her lord’s dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone. They gave his eyes to crows, she remembered."

Theon also said:

"Arya had her father's eyes, the grey eyes of the Starks..."

[FanTasy]

Good catch, AryaNym, about Brandons eyecolor. :mellow: I hope someone with access to the Wiki reads this post.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think that Rickon is also meant to have the Tully look. Arya and Jon are the only ones who look like "Starks."

[FanTasy]

I think that Rickon is also meant to have the Tully look. Arya and Jon are the only ones who look like "Starks."

And if Arya looked a lot like Lyanna - as is described - her eyes could have also been grey. That leaves the blue eyes of Benjen, according to the Wiki. But that could be a mistake of course. He is described as having the long face of the Starks.

[ARYa_Nym]

"His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes."

If Lyanna is Jon's mother she had to have the Stark eyes. Rhaegar either had dark indigo or dark purple eyes. His eyes have been described as both. I think that Jon's eyes are darker than normal Stark eyes since they look almost black.

[FanTasy]

"His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes."

Aha! Blue-grey eyes for Benjen. The plot thickens ^_^ ... it would be nice if the Wiki was adjusted.

Didn't GRRM say somewhere that he has trouble getting eye colors consistent? There are inconsistencies in the novels of course: horses with gender changes, moving scars.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Lyanna is Jon's mother she had to have the Stark eyes. Rhaegar either had dark indigo or dark purple eyes. His eyes have been described as both. I think that Jon's eyes are darker than normal Stark eyes since they look almost black.

I know I've read a few crackpot theories that say that Jon's eyes actually are purple, but they're so dark that no one has noticed. :shocked:

[ARYa_Nym]

Aha! Blue-grey eyes for Benjen. The plot thickens ^_^ ... it would be nice if the Wiki was adjusted.

Didn't GRRM say somewhere that he has trouble getting eye colors consistent? There are inconsistencies in the novels of course: horses with gender changes, moving scars.

He did. A little OT but I noticed in a Tyrion chapter:

"I do not like his eyes, Tyrion reflected, when the sellsword sat across from him in the dimness of the boat's interior...They were ice blue, pale, cold. The dwarf misliked pale eyes. Lord Tywin's eyes had been pale green and flecked with gold. "

^I don't think that this was an Other or anything like that but pale icy eyes always come off as off-putting in the books imo.

I also noticed that Theon said that Roose's color eyes are known as Ghost grey.

"He had his lord father's eyes...Ghost grey, some men called the shade, but in truth his eyes were all but colorless, like two chips of dirty ice...All he and Ramsay had in common were their eyes. His eyes are ice."

I know I've read a few crackpot theories that say that Jon's eyes actually are purple, but they're so dark that no one has noticed. :shocked:

Yeah, someone should have noticed by now if they were especially since Mel looked into his eyes. She only described them as cold and grey.

[Kennit]

I always thought the Boltons' habit of wearing other people's skins was them trying, and failing, to emulate the Starks.

Now that you say that, in Martin's earlier short story, the Skin Trade

a couple of characters used to skin werewolves and wear their pelts in order to become werewolves themselves

He also used that trope in another short story.

Just something to chew on...

[mike_s_6]

This! I love this theory! There's really something odd going on here, in my opinion. Something about the Starks, th Others, and the winter. We just don't know what. I really think Winter is Coming = We are Coming. That way it's not silly for them to keep saying their house words even though the winter season has come.