We Don't Like Daenerys 2

[Carey Snow]

Dany's chapters mostly bored the shit out of me in ADWD, but in the end I thought they came good. Personally, I usually like her chapters. As a whole she's a well written and developed character, and, as this is the song of ice and fire I hold faith that her chapters will only get better and more important as the series reaches a climax.

I agree that her egotism is grating (even though she's far from the only character with an inflated opinion of themselves) but I can't agree that she's spoilt (she was part raised by Viserys FFS) or that she's incompetent. The situation in Mereen has become a mess but overall she has achieved a remarkable amount in a short space of time.

I don't care that she doesn't lead her army from the front or that she doesn't personally execute people herself. I see no reason why she should or is expected to.

She is not perfect, though. Her inexperience and arrogance have cost people and she is blind to advice. She's a teenager slightly drunk on power but even so, her humanitarian instincts seem more prevalent than vindictive ones. I find it difficult to judge her too harshly given that she has survived a difficult life, is starting to learn from her mistakes, and still has the chance and ability to do something good.

Great fair post. I also thought her chapters in aDwD were boring (up to the last one with Drogon which was great), but through the first three books I always looked forward to her adventures. I also agree that she has faults but that is the great thing about her and most of Martin's characters.

It should also be pointed out that she must be one heck of a character to get soo many threads created to say how much she is disliked. It is tough to be this hated!

Go Dany! Burn them all!

[mor2]

It's easier than the road to heaven?

I am not sure what your point, but I wouldnt know the way of either one, in case you missed the point, using the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" I was hinting that all of Dany good intentions and hard work amount to misery and suffering to everyone involved but her and ll the while the we the read cheer, after all she saved those women and she fight for our noble ideas against slavery!

But even though that we all like the story of the timid scared underdog, who overcome everything and become a strong confident character, who did amazing things, returning Dragons to the world, destroying the warlocks, outsmarting the slavers and woning over the slaver cities etc etc etc... but the fact is that she was 13 years old girl with no education or experience, other than the streets and the tales of her brother, that put that idea that she is entitled to the Iron throne into her head. A stupid girl who has stupid fancy that she is doing some good by saving a few women, while her Khalasar was raping/murdering/pillaging tens of thousands to pay for the ships so she could be put on the throne. The stupid girl who then "saved" the slaves, without any consideration for the immediate consequences(or when she would leave to take her "rightful place on the Ironthonre) that everyone are hinting to her.

A ruler should not only ask/listen to advice but also have the capacity to comprehend it.

[deleted01]

I am not sure what your point, but I wouldnt know the way of either one, in case you missed the point, using the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" I was hinting that all of Dany good intentions and hard work amount to misery and suffering to everyone involved but her and ll the while the we the read cheer, after all she saved those women and she fight for our noble ideas against slavery!

But even though that we all like the story of the timid scared underdog, who overcome everything and become a strong confident character, who brought Dragons to the world, destroy the warlocks, outsmarted the slavers and won victories cities etc etc etc... but the fact is that she was 13 years old girl with no education or experience, other than the streets and the tales of her brother, putting the idea that she is entitled to the Iron throne. A stupid girl who has stupid fancy that she is doing some good by saving a few women, while her Khalasar was raping/murdering/pillaging tens of thousands to pay for the ships so she could be put on the throne. The stupid girl who then "saved" the slaves, without any consideration for consequences that everyone are hinting to her.

A ruler should not only ask/listen to advice but also have the capacity to comprehend it.

Lol it was a joke.. anyway, I completely agree with you actually. I think she did try hard for her age, and despite her circumstances she did her best. She does have good intentions, but sometimes she seems almost as naive as Sansa, wishing for a better world and trying to change everything bad in it. But I have to give credit where credit is due. She does rarely listen to counsel, and although she had to grow up very quickly, she does have a tendency to slip back into her "I am but a woman" crap. Her goal, as you touched upon as well, is based on pretty much nothing, mainly some tales from her crazed brother to be fair. I'm on the fence with her... I think she's central to the story (if Martin would kindly write some decent chapters for her, which involve her moving quicker than she has been!) but her whinging does get on my nerves.

[Carey Snow]

I am not sure what your point, but I wouldnt know the way of either one, in case you missed the point, using the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" I was hinting that all of Dany good intentions and hard work amount to misery and suffering to everyone involved but her and ll the while the we the read cheer, after all she saved those women and she fight for our noble ideas against slavery!

But even though that we all like the story of the timid scared underdog, who overcome everything and become a strong confident character, who did amazing things, returning Dragons to the world, destroying the warlocks, outsmarting the slavers and woning over the slaver cities etc etc etc... but the fact is that she was 13 years old girl with no education or experience, other than the streets and the tales of her brother, that put that idea that she is entitled to the Iron throne into her head. A stupid girl who has stupid fancy that she is doing some good by saving a few women, while her Khalasar was raping/murdering/pillaging tens of thousands to pay for the ships so she could be put on the throne. The stupid girl who then "saved" the slaves, without any consideration for the immediate consequences(or when she would leave to take her "rightful place on the Ironthonre) that everyone are hinting to her.

A ruler should not only ask/listen to advice but also have the capacity to comprehend it.

I can still like Dany even if she turns out to be a poor ruler. Her intentions are good but Martin is such a realist that he shows us that a ruler can not just do what is good if the results hurt many. This is a lesson Dany may never learn. I still like Dany though.

[Sevumar]

Well she is a 15 year old girl (or whatever her age is). Getting other people to do your work for you is a great skill to have and it is verymuch needed in her position.

I think something that often gets overlooked is the idea that teenagers are not well-equipped to lead anything, even if they have survived brutal childhoods, have some good goals, and possess a few positive personality traits. People in their mid-teens have a lot of learning to do before they're prepared to live their own adult lives, much less run large political entities.

In Dany's specific case, the amount of deference given to her is pretty frightening. She's a runaway train of immaturity, short-sightedness, and ignorance. With the proper advice and perspective, some of those deficits can be addressed, but she shows very little willingness to improve herself or her abilities.

Arya was very fortunate to have Jaqen in Harrenhall after all. So it is not like every chracter is going to be able to fight his or her own battles with their bare hands.

Just about everyone has had help from others in achieving their goals. One of the fantasy cliches that I think Martin is trying to take down is this idea that single people change the world alone, without anyone carrying their banners, beating their drums, and fighting their battles.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think something that often gets overlooked is the idea that teenagers are not well-equipped to lead anything, even if they have survived brutal childhoods, have some good goals, and possess a few positive personality traits. People in their mid-teens have a lot of learning to do before they're prepared to live their own adult lives, much less run large political entities.

In Dany's specific case, the amount of deference given to her is pretty frightening. She's a runaway train of immaturity, short-sightedness, and ignorance. With the proper advice and perspective, some of those deficits can be addressed, but she shows very little willingness to improve herself or her abilities.

I'm sorry, but every time you post about Daenerys you seem to make sweeping generalisations that are insulting to her fans. The fact is that all of the main ASOIAF POV characters right now are children or teenagers (with the exception of Tyrion). During ADWD I agree with the idea that you're presenting -- Dany acts like a stubborn teenager who doesn't understand how to rule a city after she's conquered it. But by the end of ADWD I believe everything has fallen into place. After all, that chapter was probably supposed to take place after the five year gap, which would mean Dany is no longer a teenager. So with regards to the lack of a five year gap, we have to overlook their age and instead look at the lessons they've learned over the last book.

[eivers]

Honestly I stopped considering the age of such characters like Dany and Jon ages ago. With all the crap they have gone through and the actions of much older characters in the series age doesn't seen like a good indicator of anything.

[Winter's Knight]

In regards to her age, I would like to point out that of all the adolescent characters who were in a position of power-Robb, Joffery, Jon, Theon and Dany-she is the only one still alive and whole.

[FanTasy]

To be fair - and I'm the first who finds that Dany has made some very bad decisions, that caused harm to countless people - one should consider that Dany did not have great advisors. The secret of being a great ruler or president, even in our time and world, is to organise good advice. To get a circle around you of people who know what is going on and - that's the most important - who are not afraid to question your decisions ETA and tell this to your face. Stannis is not afraid or too arrogant to keep Davos close.

Jorah gave her advice. But he made the mistake to drive her away from him by not controlling herhis feelings for her and to not be honest with her.

Arstan/Barristan could give some great advice. But he has been for years and years in a position where you don't question your boss unless you like to be roasted. He doesn't lack courage, but he sees her as a Targaryen who can cook him as he tells her the truth bluntly.

Dany feels she is the last of her line - and feels the responsibility to rule. She feels the weight of all her predecessors. If one thinks a moment what pressure this gives to her it could perhaps raise a tiny bit of understanding?

Mind you, understanding what her position is doesn't mean that one can't blame her for the bad decisions she makes.

It doesn't make her a good person or a good ruler.

[The Drunkard]

In regards to her age, I would like to point out that of all the adolescent characters who were in a position of power-Robb, Joffery, Jon, Theon and Dany-she is the only one still alive and whole.

In the spirit of pointing things out, I would also like to point out Dany is the only adolescent with 3 dragons.

[Revan Baratheon]

Thank you...yes, that is the word, arrogant.

"My Sister is undoubtedly arrogant,My father is the soul of avarice,and my sweet brother Viserys lusts for power with every waking breath,I,however,am innocent as a little lamb." He grinned.

-Rhaegar Targaryen

[Sevumar]

I'm sorry, but every time you post about Daenerys you seem to make sweeping generalisations that are insulting to her fans. The fact is that all of the main ASOIAF POV characters right now are children or teenagers (with the exception of Tyrion).

I don't know why you find the fact that teenagers lack the maturity, judgment, and education to lead large nations insulting. It's written all over series, whether we're talking about Dany, Robb, Joffrey, or others. I expect that Varys/Illyrio/Jon Connington will be in for a surprise when their perfectly-groomed "king," Aegon, turns out to be a teenager as well. It's no surprise, and I've said it before, that one of Martin's themes is that when your society runs on a system built on deference to bloodlines and people are willing to put unchecked power into the hands of a teenager, you're creating a lot of unnecessary suffering.

Dany is not unique in her position, but she is both a PoV and a character that we spend a lot of time reading. We get to see the lapses in her judgment, her awful justifications for her worst acts, and her attempts to resist growth firsthand. We see atrocities in the arbitrary murders of adults and children, along with the approval of torture, that we should all condemn. We're meant to be appalled at the terrible things she does in her bouts of temper and her lack of real thought about justice, despite the fact that she claims it means so much to her.

During ADWD I agree with the idea that you're presenting -- Dany acts like a stubborn teenager who doesn't understand how to rule a city after she's conquered it. But by the end of ADWD I believe everything has fallen into place. After all, that chapter was probably supposed to take place after the five year gap, which would mean Dany is no longer a teenager. So with regards to the lack of a five year gap, we have to overlook their age and instead look at the lessons they've learned over the last book.

I wonder what makes you think that everything is falling into place. If it is, and I'm not sure that I agree with that sentiment, it's largely in spite of Dany, not because of her. At the end of ADWD, she's drawing the wrong conclusions about the situation in Meereen. It looks like the hard work of defending the city against Yunkai and its partners will once again fall to her confederates. Dany is undoubtedly one of those characters most hurt by the lack of the 5 year gap, and although she would've been in her early twenties by that point, birthdays are not magical by themselves. People must still be willing to grow, mature, see what they've done wrong, and work hard to change.

[Noimporta]

The fact is that all of the main ASOIAF POV characters right now are children or teenagers

And I disapprove of any of them getting the Iron Throne equally.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Er, surely thats the case with anyone in a leadership position? Tywin, Robb, et al, don't personally pull off their various stunts either. She comes as close to the front lines of the battle as is sensible for something who isn't a warrior, and she's hardly self indulgent as an administrator when it comes to keeping long hours and not delegating responsibilities. (arguably she's too hands on micromanaging, if anything.)

Hardly self indulgent?

Martin writes her body language in very specifically, as though we're to take note of it.

She often sits cross legged on soft pillows. She piles pillows on her throne. Always sitting in both comfort and arrogance, as though the world is her luxury and the import of the situation at hand is second to that. Her words only add to that effect.

Both Tywin and Robb took part in battles, also. Tywin felt he was best needed at a position of good view, so he could command directly. He rarely took part in the killing only because he felt believed the best way to win was to command directly. Dany never even so much as commanded. Robb fought personally in the battles. He was always surrounded by bodyguards, but he was still a direct warrior. He also did as his father did, administering justice with his own hands (beheading).

There is no excuse that Dany was a little girl, not a warrior. So was Queen Elizabeth the First. She was not a fighter. She still got dressed up in full armor and rode to the front of her lines to deliver a battle speech and rally her men. And by the gods, it WORKED. There are many other women in history who have done the same, and also men who were not fighters but still "took part" in some small way. Morale is a powertful thing. But Dany, no. Dany is the blood of the dragon. Dany is too noble for such folly. Men OWE her their alleigence, and should die in her service without question. Or thus she would have us believe.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

I should really highlight the fact that Dany piles pillows on her throne, you know. This is in direct conflict to the principle of the Iron Throne, that a King should never sit in comfort. If you believe in this principle, then this paints a very negative picture of Dany. As I said, Martin is highlighting her body language - take note of it, along with what she says.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

It's no surprise, and I've said it before, that one of Martin's themes is that when your society runs on a system built on deference to bloodlines and people are willing to put unchecked power into the hands of a teenager, you're creating a lot of unnecessary suffering.

Well that's why Robert decreed Ned was to rule until Jofferey was of age. After Ned died, Tyrion was sent to do it. Cersei is the reagent. Jofferey never had more than a taste of power. Of course it was all disasterific, to be sure, but these people knew you don't give a 12 year old boy unchecked power. Unfortunately, Dany has no elder family to take her power away from her. It would have been better if Jorah had stripped her of authority until she was 16, but unrealistic in the end given Jorah is a mere knight and not of royal blood or anything.

As for Robb, another boy King, no one needed to keep ihim in check. When he called the banners, his mother showed up, and Cat was considering sending him home and Robb would have gone if she insisted, but they decided it was too late for that. Luckily, Ned had taught Robb to LISTEN, so the fact he was young was irrelevant given he had so many veterans surrounding him.

Jon needs to reign in Aegon, or he'll end up another Dany and blow the lot. Though Aegon is very headstrong. That's not such a bad things, so long as he limits his ego to being a hero on the battlefield rather than trying to hog all the power to himself.

In the end, I think this shows your post was a bit off. Dany is the only out of control teenager in the series so far who has too much power. Only her.

[Ivy Snow]

In the last installment, Eivers asked if it still counted as a sacrifice if the people were already dead (PatrickStormborn said yes), and Nev yn wondered if Dany's "sacrifice" of Rhaego was that much different from Aegon V's (alleged?) sacrifice of the Duncans.

So let's have it: Dany. Egotistical, incompetent spoiled brat on the road to becoming just another batshit Targaryen? Or well-meaning, slave-freeing, girl-powered savior of the world?

From Game of Thrones, p. 669.

Shut up, Dany.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Ivy Snow]

sorry .. computer had a problem.. posted multiple times.

[Ivy Snow]

sorry .. computer had a problem.. posted multiple times.

[The king On The Moon]

Let me join my voice to yours and say Daenerys is a horrible ruler. And being young is no excuse for her actions. She is the last person I want to see sit the iron throne, right after Mord.