[Book Spoilers]Ygritte: Is that a knife, or are you just happy to see me?
Posted 17 May 2012 - 11:14 AM
In our society it happens all the time that grown men are lead around by women just as Ygritte was leading him around, teasing and taunting, subtly offering, I’ve known women that talk just like that when they want to antagonize a male. I have watched grown men spend weeks chasing women who offered far less wanton invitations. I think his naïveté is shown about what he was giving up joining the NW at such a young age, you think this make Jon look weak? I think it make him look like a male. I've heard it said, all men are dumb and all women are crazy.
Posted 17 May 2012 - 12:00 PM
That's because at this stage in his development, he is weak. He is not incomptent as some seemed convinced of but is rather ignorant. Hence the line "You know nothing Jon Snow." He knows nothing but Winterfell and really is out of his element north of the Wall. He knows little about life in general other than what Ned has taught him and is naive. Just like Sansa is naive. Both have romantic notions of what life is like. For Sansa, it's the glamour and allure of court life and for Jon, being a man of the Night's Watch is a noble thing. Both have found out rather quickly that is not true and both are fumbling for how best to survive.
I also read Jon Snow as a very naive boy who doesn't seem to understand how the world around him works. I actually didn't like his story much at all during the second book, just as I didn't like Sansa's. But in the third book, they start to figure out their places in the world, and I liked their characters more and more as they became more confident in their surroundings. Some people say they didn't like Ygritte in the books, but I thought she was instrumental in helping Jon realize his own identity. I think the tv adaptation has been very good so far for Jon. They will still have Qhorin's sacrifice, because otherwise they wouldn't have casted his character.
Posted 17 May 2012 - 06:29 PM
A good half the conversation was discussion of freedom, the Wildling culture, etc. and not anything to do with sex at all. Do you just blank that out?
I'm talking about the story Ygritte told about the old lord of Winterfell's daughter which was actually a foreshadowing to Bran in the crypts for the clever reader. In the show Ygritte whined about whose land it was first, but there was no Westeros "culture" in it; just bickering. I don't recall that in the books.
Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:21 PM
Well said! I also read Jon Snow as a very naive boy who doesn't seem to understand how the world around him works. I actually didn't like his story much at all during the second book, just as I didn't like Sansa's. But in the third book, they start to figure out their places in the world, and I liked their characters more and more as they became more confident in their surroundings. Some people say they didn't like Ygritte in the books, but I thought she was instrumental in helping Jon realize his own identity. I think the tv adaptation has been very good so far for Jon. They will still have Qhorin's sacrifice, because otherwise they wouldn't have casted his character.
Very true. When I read the books, I was on the fence about Jon until Qhorin told him to join the Wildings. He became a lot more interesting in the books thereafter because he actually started learning about life and shaking some of the romantic notions he had been brought up with. He started growing up just like Sansa slowly starts to grow up. And yes, his relationship with Ygritte was instrumental in that to a degree. It was nice seeing him just kind of happy if that makes sense because Jon can come off as rather surly and grumpy and way too serious. Ygritte is a good foil for that. And show Ygritte is awesome.
Posted 18 May 2012 - 05:03 AM
First because it gave a good characterisation of what Jon is at this point. He is an adolescent boy who just simply doesn't know anything about how the world works, and he doesn't know that he doesn't know (typical adolescent attitude). He doesn't come through as someone incompetent (that was quite obvious from season 1), he does come through as someone extremely inexperienced (that is what he is at this point). The TV Jon is a likeable character. It's pretty obvious that he is a very nice guy, he is talented and good-natured. (He also has a solid foundation to build upon.) It's also pretty obvious that he is very insecure just like an adolescent boy should be, and that's it. There is a ton of potential in Jon (event at the end of ADwD) and it will be a pretty easy job to develop his character. I'd say everything is set up for Jon to develop.
Second I loved how Ygritte pounded on Jon's insecurities. It was pretty obvious that Ygritte really sees something in Jon and it's also obvious that she keeps her options open by taunting him. Yes it wasn't high-brow, but hell, she is a wildling, why should she be? Jon's insecurity is so obvious that you don't need to be subtle to confuse him.
Third, the TV viewers learnt a lot from their debates (although it seems that even most wildlings do not know what the Wall is for, which is very strange).
Fourth, Rose Leslie is just absolutely amazing. She transformed Ygritte for me, I found Ygritte a bit brutish for my liking in the books. The TV Ygritte is so much more witty ("I didn't want to want it") and fiery in a non-grotesque way.
Posted 18 May 2012 - 02:24 PM
This. I am absolutely petrified at the thought of Jon turning cloak without Qhorin's order. So much so, that I am struggling to try and enjoy the Jon scenes, and mostly failing at that.
As long as Jon turns his cloak on the last order of Qhorin Halfhand, I will be completely fine with the changes to the beggining of Jon's story with Ygritte. It will be hard being fine with Jon nonsensically chasing Ygritte, after deciding not to kill her, but I will do it. However, it's going to take some time getting over them making Jon look absolutely incompetent. In. Every. Single. Bloody. Episode.
If he does, however, turn the cloak on Qhorin's order, then all past is forgiven and I can enjoy the scenes on a re-watch.
EDIT: And I just wanted to add, I don't really care how closely the series follows the books, but this is something that I just feel really strongly about. But, I will watch the series nonetheless, so HBO wins anyway.
Edited by Ananta, 18 May 2012 - 02:27 PM.
Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:39 PM
ROFLMAO perfect example of other fictional male that lets the woman take the piss out of him all the time. Kudos to you or whom ever made it.
It's not mine, but yeah, Lucy Van Pelt is pretty much a universal ball buster. /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />
Posted 18 May 2012 - 09:58 PM
And Kit Harington does a great job of showing how uncomfortable he is by the fact that she's turning him on haha.
"I SWEARS LORD MASTER CROW. WE WAS ONLY TOGETHER FOR WARMTH...AND THEN I FELT IT" - LMAO
Between her and Arya/Tywin that was the only reason I enjoyed the last episode.
Posted 20 May 2012 - 05:42 AM
To be honest, in the books, that says nothing about Jon's competence. Its Qhorin and the experienced rangers that get them that far, Jon is just tagging along. The only thing Jon has going for him in that sequence in the book is his warging into Ghost. They obviously chose to cut that, which I can understand, because in the books so far, that was a one time thing, and only served to show us something we will be seeing anyway when Jon joins Mance's army. It looks like the show has cut all the Stark kids' warging except for the one where it will actually play a part in the plotlines.
I really like how in the book, Qhorin and Jon don't get caught because of incompetence. They did everything they could do to get away from Rattleshirt and his party, it just was not enough.
I think this is showing Jon out of his element. Jon has been raised as a fighter/lord/tactician Not as a ranger/guard. I think all of the "damage" jons character is taking now will quickly be erased when we see him fight QH, Defend the wall against the raider attack, and then ultimately when we see him defend the wall against the wildling army. Jon was raised to be a leader among men, The old bear saw that, thats why he didnt make him a ranger, and was trying to groom him for command..
That's because at this stage in his development, he is weak. He is not incomptent as some seemed convinced of but is rather ignorant. Hence the line "You know nothing Jon Snow." He knows nothing but Winterfell and really is out of his element north of the Wall. He knows little about life in general other than what Ned has taught him and is naive.
Both quotes make a good analysis, I feel, and I want to add this: the scenes with Ygritte are used to show how honourbound Jon is. In the books we get the whole Ygritte trying to seduce him after he has 'turned his cloak', and we know he doesn't go for it immediately because he's still trying to remain true to his vows through his thoughts. Even when he finally gives in, he's conflicted about it. They can't give us his thoughts to tell us why he doesn't sleep with her first chance he gets, and he can hardly tell Ygritte he doesn't want to betray his vow to the NW after he has 'turned his cloak', so they had to move that part up in order to be able to show us that his vows mean more to him that a piece of 'kissed by fire' tail. I'm guessing his romance with Ygritte will take of much sooner after he joins the wildlings in the series.
The dialogue about free life north of the wall, and his face suggesting that it does sound appealing to him add to this. What is stopping him from giving in to Ygritte and having the free life she suggests he can have, is the fact that he has taken a vow...
Edited by Fengari, 20 May 2012 - 05:45 AM.
Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:23 AM
Yeah, I don't want or need them to change her death in the series to it being Jon's arrow that did it. Keep that as is. And I don't think they are drastically changing their relationship dynamic too much at this point. She's kind of bratty in the books (which I loved) and made no secret that she liked him so her dialogue isn't that much of a stretch for me. I can see how a free wilding woman would question the institution of the Night's Watch and some of their vows. It's pretty sad that someone as young as Jon choose to confine himself is such a way and choose not to love a woman in his life. And for what? To protect the realm from things North of the Wall that may or may not be as evil as everyone has been led to believe.
For honor, it may not be rational or reasoned but its what makes him more like Ned than any of his trueborn children.
Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:07 AM
Isn't that the wholepoint, that Ygitte's powerful and wild femaleness turns Jon into a floundering little boy?
Jon wasn't so incompetent in the books
Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:40 AM
I think it was a mixture of both wanting him, and trying to trick him. notice the point she comes on her strongest to try and get Jon to sleep with her, happens just as they are making their way into the trap.. I think she was thinking "this is my last chance before they capture him" or something like that
I liked Ygritte in the books, and I really like her in the show. They have made her very funny, I especially liked when she threatened to tell Qhorin that Jon had sex with her, the words she used were fantastic. However, I am a little confused by her actions. When she kept trying to get with Jon, I thought she really wanted to do him, but later it seemed like she was just doing all that to trick Jon into a false sense of security, that way she could walk him into a trap. So was it all an act, or did she really want to bump-uglies with Jon? Or was it a bit of both?
Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:47 AM
ive been worrying over thing myself, its going to make the whole LC thing seem to come from nowhere, I mean I like the show, and I think Kit is a cutie, though for Jon I always imagined shorter hair, but they write Jon like he is an idiot and it hurt the nerd inside me
Yeah, Jon this season is so dumb and everyone owns him that it's too much even for me (and I've never liked him in the books, bashing him has been one of my favourite activities on this board). Really don't see how they'll sell to the viewers him being chosen for Lord Commander when they spent a whole season making him look completely incompetent and the butt of all jokes in his plotline.
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