Ghosts of Winterfell/ Winterfell Crypts

[Mother of Dragons]

My cat escaped from his cage despite being sick and I haven't seen him yet.

If you kept me in a cage, I'd escape and run away too!!

[Mother of Dragons]

What is BAMF? It is not known. (at least not by me)

I like the idea of a BAMF Stark from the days of old - imprisoned beneath Winterfell just chomppin at the bit - ready to bust loose and kill all those trespassers.

I do think we'll see the Ghosts of Winterfell in action, once conditions are right. Which might mean that once everyone with Stark blood/ kin has left or until the Wall falls.

[Arkantos]

I was thinking the iron sword thing was a corruption of an older tradition, the oldest Kings would've used bronze weapons wouldn't they?

Maybe they used to put dragonglass blades there instead, why would they put something on a monument to an ancestor which was destined to rust away, if it was supposed to keep their spirits timid forevermore? Someone along line will have decided that iron was stronger and more fitting to Starks, which may have been a mistake, but it had been thousands of years.

Also, it seems that wargs have some control over wights, the Starks seem to be quite strong wargs, could be that the reason there has to be a Stark in Winterfell is so that they can raise their undead ancestors to battle the others.

It could also be that they can communicate with them through the weirwood network to learn and ask advice, as we've seen, you can see a lot of stuff when you're hooked up to those trees, this is sort of backed by Bran & Rickon's dream about Ned talking to them.

[Black Wolf Smith]

What is BAMF? It is not known. (at least not by me)

It was on Quentin tarantino wallet that Samuel Jackson uses in "Pulp Fiction", when he tells Tim Roth to give him back his wallet. "You know which one, the one that Bad Ass Mother Fucker"

[Mother of Dragons]

It was on Quentin tarantino wallet that Samuel Jackson uses in "Pulp Fiction", when he tells Tim Roth to give him back his wallet. "You know which one, the one that Bad Ass Mother Fucker"

Ah, yes! That was a long time ago. Thank you

[redriver]

@Black Wolf Smith

1. Isn't Dreadfort a more likely source of Obsidian?

2. Are we sure that its all Crypts? And wouldn't be odd to have the oldest the deepest in the ground? Am I wrong but 1pov say they oldest Starks are close to the door, and another says the Ancient crypts are the deepest?

3. NK is likely Cold hands..

4. The dream is likely giving to him by the 3eye crow.

1.Given that I'm basing the presence of obsidian on volcanic activity,I would say they were equally likely sources,the Dreadfort having hot springs,as does Winterfell.I'm interested in why you think the former is a more likely source.

2.I think we only see one level in the books,and on that level the oldest are nearest the entrance door.The lower levels may not be all crypts,but there are certainly crypts at lower levels.

3.I can't rule it out,but I really don't think the NK is Coldhands.I doubt a legendary demonic king is going to hang round for thousands of years to be warged into a hired elk handler.But you never know!

4.Maybe.It looks like the wolf dream is influenced by Bran.But whether or not it's BR,it looks like Jon is destined to face something very scary in the crypts.Jon admits to Sam that he's not afraid of the Kings of Winter or their iron swords,but the NK was not a KoW,he was an LC of the Watch.Whether the Starks would have viewed him as important or dangerous enough to be encrypted under Winterfell is open to question.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Sometimes I discover old threads that no one really checks anymore but they're so brilliant that I can't help but comment.

Hmm... Fearing something is different. I mean iron in the form of swords can damage them, but was it mentioned that just a piece of iron lying there frightens them or stops them from becoming wights? Some of the NW brothers who were tuned into wights probably had their swords and daggers with them; why did they become wights then? And doesn't the wall protect anyone dead south of it from becoming a wight? There must be something else IMO. I believe GRRM has given us clues about them being ghosts that could do something. In AGoT it's mentioned that they put swords on them to keep them in the graves. In the end of ACoK they take out the swords. In ADwD we return to Winterfell, and one chapter is named ghosts of Winterfell; there are may murders and the dead didn't become wights. In ADwD when we return to the crypts it is mentioned there are still some swords missing. Something's up with them, and I think it's related to Jon and the Others, but not just them. There could be more twists to the plot.

I really like this theory. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and now the dead Stark's have been released. My wolfish heart approves.

And I thought of someone else... could it be that Osha had an inkling about this? I realise that taking the swords could be (and most likely is) just a clever precaution, but the legit-o-meter of wildlings about these things are really uncanny. I think that she may have took a shot against those who took the castle and slaughtered the people of it. Osha does have a fondness for Stark's after all, why else would she save and protect the "little lords"?

Am I reaching too far here? This forum usually gives me a lot of crackpot theories xD

[evita mgfs]

This is my crackpot theory

Mel says, "The bones remember".

V6S's POV: “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades and the beast becomes a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains” (DWD 12).

The bones of the COF and others “in a sense” reside in a warded cave, where some spirits join “earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows” and “the bogs and crannogs, we [Reeds and retainers] remember” (DWD 449).

The COF sing in a language long forgotten, or fly in the ravens whose beady eyes hold secrets, like "The truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell" (DWD 449).

The fact that ‘the bones remember’ seems significant with the burial practices of the Starks, and the importance of returning the bones, or remains, to WF crypts. Moreover, the Stark statues have the direwolves at their feet, which suggests a long history of warging, no doubt another ‘truth’ forgotten in WF.

Jon says of the wights, “Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing LC Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him . . .” (DWD 520).

A major event, or series of events, will reanimate the Starks by allowing the return of their spirits to the bones.

The ravens will be the instruments, delivering the spirits of long-dead Starks; even those whose spirits are part of “earth and water” can be recalled by the ravens hooking into the weirnet – a source of knowledge. Jojen says, "Men forget. Only trees remember."

Sadly, since some Starks were wargs, the “beast” remains in their spirits, so the dead will be especially nasty.

The major event - or series of such - the violation of the laws of hospitality –

1. Boltons claiming WF.
   
2. Ramsay marrying fake-Arya in front of ‘laughing’ heart tree, a murder of ravens as witness.
   
3. Ramsay and his submissives, Theon and a random dog, violate fake Arya – in the godswood a raven quorks.
   
4. Using a ‘fake’ Stark and Ned’s ‘turncloak’ ward Theon in the mummer’s farce.
   
5. Opening the WF crypts [Lady Dunsten and company are of the north, and “The north remembers” – Lady Donella Hornwood eating her fingers, Roose Bolton and the Freys at the Red Wedding – How dare they violate WF?]
   

My ideas of the violation of the laws of hospitality have already been shot down – but I persist.

The same type of magic that wards the Wall, preventing the wights and their Masters from crossing, is similar to the magic warding the crypts of WF and RavenBran’s cave. WF and the Wall will lose their shield, and maybe the cave if Bran ate Jojen paste – [it is a given that a guest will not be served for supper].

The wards will be broken by violations against the laws of hospitality – sins that demand retribution of the old gods. [The crows have already killed their host Craster, then their Lord Commander. Now they attempt to kill Jon Snow – they are doomed].

The dead rising? I picture it to be a lot like Odysseus’ visit to the Hall of Hades, oft called The Book of the Dead - in Homer’s Odyssey. It will also be a good read – meeting former Starks – all with their own agenda -until a force unites them against a darker foe.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

<< snip >>

Excuse me while I sit here and just look at you brilliant people with your amazing reading comprehension skills and sob because I have the reading comprehension of a potato.

I always believed that there were something going on with those old laws, that they were more than mere traditions. And the reference to "bones" and certain people and things "remembering" have been made simply too much to pass up.

So I agree with all of this. Kudos!

[evita mgfs]

Excuse me while I sit here and just look at you brilliant people with your amazing reading comprehension skills and sob because I have the reading comprehension of a potato.

I always believed that there were something going on with those old laws, that they were more than mere traditions. And the reference to "bones" and certain people and things "remembering" have been made simply too much to pass up.

So I agree with all of this. Kudos!

Thanks - if you are being sincere. NO ONE agrees with my laws of hospitality - so do not believe me. I have been shot down by the best.

And you are no potato. Martin is just brilliant and I, for one, pale next to his genius - not even in the same ball park, I am sure. But like Bran, I can dream.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Thanks - if you are being sincere. NO ONE agrees with my laws of hospitality - so do not believe me. I have been shot down by the best.

And you are no potato. Martin is just brilliant and I, for one, pale next to his genius - not even in the same ball park, I am sure. But like Bran, I can dream.

I'm sorry if my usual derp attitude mislead you. I assure you, I'm completely sincere =) But potatoes are nice. See what I mean? I just can't stay serious for more than 20 seconds. Again, I'm so sorry if I gave you the wrong impression xD

I definitely think there's some sort of retribution for breaching the guest right. So fully supporting you here. Why else would EVERY culture, region and religion be so terrified of breaching it, and disgusted when it's breached? We've heard this from many, like Davos and Jeor Mormont. Not to mention the smallfolk.

[Black Wolf Smith]

@redriver Dreadfort has a volcano right next to it. WF has hot springs.

I always believed that there were something going on with those old laws, that they were more than mere traditions. And the reference to "bones" and certain people and things "remembering" have been made simply too much to pass up.

With you liking to look at old threads, and wanting to hear more about the old laws, you should check out some of the older Heretic threads on aDwD forum.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

With you liking to look at old threads, and wanting to hear more about the old laws, you should check out some of the older Heretic threads on aDwD forum.

Reading them right now, actually. They're pretty long, but I'm determined to read them all & I'm on #7 =)

[evita mgfs]

@redriver Dreadfort has a volcano right next to it. WF has hot springs.

With you liking to look at old threads, and wanting to hear more about the old laws, you should check out some of the older Heretic threads on aDwD forum.

I am reading too - but I like to get my theories in order to prove to myself I can analyze lit. before I check heretic sites. But thanks! :blush:

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Maybe because in summer, it's warm outside, so the crypts are in the summer colder than outside. However, when Winter arrives, it will be colder outside than inside the crypts, because the temperature outside drops, while the temperature in the crypts remains constant.

But, maybe not.

This. Underground will be warmer when it's freezing outside.